How linear distortion sounds non-linear 1
The attachment for low pass filter and it's time delay waterfall:
The sound in the region of cutoff is a source of distortion in the sense that it isnt clear and smears or obcures other signal details in the region. In addition, some will hear this area of extra energy level and describe it as being peaked near this region. -RNM
The attachment for low pass filter and it's time delay waterfall:
The sound in the region of cutoff is a source of distortion in the sense that it isnt clear and smears or obcures other signal details in the region. In addition, some will hear this area of extra energy level and describe it as being peaked near this region. -RNM
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You'll have to get in touch with Baskin. He liked his Audiophile Pricetag so much he bought the company.
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You wouldn't have his Telex number would you?
Telephone and door bells rings is too simple. I once had been fooled by waterfall recorded. Jumped, turned around, then realized that it could not be water in my living room. Father in law insisted that somebody played piano in our house, while it was a record. One guest was fooled by frogs singing on a record, he said that frogs on our backyard sing nice, and he wants also a house near a creek. Guests when prepared to watch a movie were scared by a roaring lion. And so on. Such subconscious reactions that happen before we realize that it is a record is a good sign that development of the equipment goes in the right direction.
Let me stress: goes in the right direction. I did not said that I achieved a real reproduction.
a small step for mankind?
Ok Going in the right direction..... But these affects also occured in the 1950 sound systems.... meanwhile back at the ranch .... any comments on using the appropriate test - the ones which better matches listening perceptions?
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The most appropriate test is how subconscious mind reacts on sounds. Second test is conscious, to close the eyes and imagine that sources of sounds afre real. The harder it is to imagine, the worse is the system. For example, during one show I was standing near the room where supposed to be very high end speakers sounded, but no matter how I tried I could not imagine a real orchestra. I heard carefully constructed dipoles with complex crossovers of high order. But when I entered a room with wooden doors standing there, with single wideband drivers in them, I heard more an orchestra than speakers.
Well, Ken Newton, you ask an important question. (at least you did, a few pages back)
I do not design equipment for a 'certain sound'. I just TRY to keep each and every kind of deviation from accurate reproduction as low as reasonably possible.
So, when it comes to capacitors, I like virtually Zero DA, as well as copper or silver leads, AND good solid construction. Using Rel. caps, that almost everybody in hi end uses or has used in the past, this CAN be expensive. Even at OEM pricing. However, if you want to 'win' you can't afford to use something that has potential problems, like DA.
I realize that many here do not engage in commercial listening contests, so they can't understand why we bother, and stories are made up as to why things are so expensive.
It would be like buying tires for an expensive sports car, and putting the cheapest passenger grade types on that will fit, rather than the high performance recommended tire brand and type recommended by the manufacturer. This might be like using a $75 tire rather than a $500 tire on a new Porsche. It could look the same to the inexperienced eye.
You could drive your sports car to the store, pick up the kid, etc. without any problem, but you most probably get into trouble IF you try to use the car as it was designed and intended for. The cheap tires could actually disable the car from performing properly, in a real sports car event or situation, like driving a twisty road, etc.
YET, the same cheap tires might be OK on a VW Bug, or its equivalent. It was never made to be a sports car, and the rest of the car will tell you this, even before the tires will. In this case, putting an expensive set of tires on the VW Bug, might be a waste of money, because the potential of the tire is wasted.
It is the same with good caps, or other passive parts. We use the best performing parts, in order to avoid having one of them or the combination ADDING a sonic 'signature' to the overall sound reproduction
I do not design equipment for a 'certain sound'. I just TRY to keep each and every kind of deviation from accurate reproduction as low as reasonably possible.
So, when it comes to capacitors, I like virtually Zero DA, as well as copper or silver leads, AND good solid construction. Using Rel. caps, that almost everybody in hi end uses or has used in the past, this CAN be expensive. Even at OEM pricing. However, if you want to 'win' you can't afford to use something that has potential problems, like DA.
I realize that many here do not engage in commercial listening contests, so they can't understand why we bother, and stories are made up as to why things are so expensive.
It would be like buying tires for an expensive sports car, and putting the cheapest passenger grade types on that will fit, rather than the high performance recommended tire brand and type recommended by the manufacturer. This might be like using a $75 tire rather than a $500 tire on a new Porsche. It could look the same to the inexperienced eye.
You could drive your sports car to the store, pick up the kid, etc. without any problem, but you most probably get into trouble IF you try to use the car as it was designed and intended for. The cheap tires could actually disable the car from performing properly, in a real sports car event or situation, like driving a twisty road, etc.
YET, the same cheap tires might be OK on a VW Bug, or its equivalent. It was never made to be a sports car, and the rest of the car will tell you this, even before the tires will. In this case, putting an expensive set of tires on the VW Bug, might be a waste of money, because the potential of the tire is wasted.
It is the same with good caps, or other passive parts. We use the best performing parts, in order to avoid having one of them or the combination ADDING a sonic 'signature' to the overall sound reproduction
John, would you say that has your design experience has brought you to something approaching a standard circuit topology for a given application, say, a FET based complementary folded-cascode topolgy for linestages as an example, wherein the remaining work distinguishing a contest winning product from a second place product mostly involves discrete component selection? If so, how do objective measurements factor in to such a process?
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If you want no ringing you probably need a linear phase filter. Note that ringing does not necessarily mean the filter is adding anything, as ringing can occur by subtraction. Nothing to do with distortion, anyway. Our ears are quite good at hearing one issue and blaming something else. No reason why our brains should follow.
An outstanding example of this, in my opinion, is the complaint about negative feedback "blurring details" and those who claim to hear "the dog chasing its tail".
In fact, I think many who prefer "open loop" systems and attribute their preferences to the lack of feedback are in fact hearing ringing in underdamped systems and structures and imagining this as constituting greater detail, "realism", and so forth. It is a situation somewhat analogous to listener preferences for a certain amount of room boundary effects and early reflections. If not done to death it actually improves sensory/perceptual acuity.
No reason to speculate on mechanisms until there is an agreement on what is heard that is not anecdotal. It will never happen, too much to lose on both sides.
Ah yes, too much to lose. Yet I still search for ways to reconcile the persistent reports. At least in the realm of loudspeakers and rooms, which tempted me to the analogy, there is well-documented testing that show significant preferences.
The principal apostle of feedback (if one likes, "excessive" feedback) being bad, selected examples of bad designs to "prove" his hypotheses, according to Zanfino and R. Miller. And we were off to the races.
Ken Newton, you again ask a perceptive question. All that I can easily answer is that I tend to recommend passive parts that have worked sonically well with my own designs as well as others. For example, Rel. Caps. Peter Moncrieff originally found them, and got the manufacturer to put copper leads on them, and they were called 'Wonder Caps'. They have been used almost exclusively in: the JC-80 preamp, Vendetta Research, Parasound, and Constellation. They are/or have been used in models of Ayre, Audio Research, and at least a dozen other high end audio manufacturers.
We have all known Bas Lim the owner and cap designer at Rel. for about 30 years. Charles Hansen found the company so valuable, that he offered to buy the company, to keep it in operation, if Bas ever retired (he is older than Charles and I are).
Dick Marsh worked with Bas to develop a unique capacitor that made the cover of an engineering magazine, at least once, as the optimum device for switching power supplies. The design was patented, as well.
Yet, critics of mine, like Scott Wurcer has apparently never heard of the company. Go figure! '-)
We have all known Bas Lim the owner and cap designer at Rel. for about 30 years. Charles Hansen found the company so valuable, that he offered to buy the company, to keep it in operation, if Bas ever retired (he is older than Charles and I are).
Dick Marsh worked with Bas to develop a unique capacitor that made the cover of an engineering magazine, at least once, as the optimum device for switching power supplies. The design was patented, as well.
Yet, critics of mine, like Scott Wurcer has apparently never heard of the company. Go figure! '-)
I hope that Richard Marsh will fill in the areas that I have to leave blank, but Rel. makes a number of capacitors for industry. Bas takes pride that labs and serious industry buys his product. It's his job to make good caps, and he takes his job seriously. He has TRIED to talk me out of some extremely expensive caps, never pushes me toward a cap that I have not chosen, and helps, the best he can, with problems that we might have with his caps, and others, by the way. A true engineer.
In my CTC Blowtorch Vendetta phono stage, we use Teflon 0.1uf and 0.047uf caps. That is what I use for EQ caps. I moved UP from Rel RT polystyrene, and I am pretty sure I heard a difference. However, today, I will probably design with polystyrene, rather than Teflon for my best designs. The Parasound JC-1, JC-2, and JC-3 have Rel. RT polystyrene caps in the power supply and the JC-3 uses .047uf caps for the RIAA Eq. All three designs have an A rating in 'Stereophile' All use global negative feedback, as well.
In my CTC Blowtorch Vendetta phono stage, we use Teflon 0.1uf and 0.047uf caps. That is what I use for EQ caps. I moved UP from Rel RT polystyrene, and I am pretty sure I heard a difference. However, today, I will probably design with polystyrene, rather than Teflon for my best designs. The Parasound JC-1, JC-2, and JC-3 have Rel. RT polystyrene caps in the power supply and the JC-3 uses .047uf caps for the RIAA Eq. All three designs have an A rating in 'Stereophile' All use global negative feedback, as well.
Geeez did you guys miss the point? I am talking about test equipment measurements which correlate better than freq response or thd. It seems to have gone right over the heads of the readers here.
We are often told -- that because the thd or phase or freq response is super good, listeners are nuts to hear what they say they hear. It started with caps but I moved on to other areas.... you guys are still on caps and distortion? You are making yourselves look bad. -RNM
We are often told -- that because the thd or phase or freq response is super good, listeners are nuts to hear what they say they hear. It started with caps but I moved on to other areas.... you guys are still on caps and distortion? You are making yourselves look bad. -RNM
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