I am sure it sounds great. But, is that a complete system? No.
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True, of course. IF you want an explaination of why the sound quality being less than accurate - look towards group delay of the entire system. It is a better indicator than, say, thd once below .1% or better.
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No it just illustrated that DC servos could reduce the number, but didn't eliminate all the coupling capacitors in a tube system as well, not just solid state. I did use your Audio Amatuer line amp in the 1980's, later a Borbely all Fet and a homebrew Blowtorch now. I used 2 of your double chamber bass cabinets with Quad 63's as my 1980s speaker system. Are you using Quad 2905 with your woofers? I'm using Martin Logan CLX with RTX/PPFXS crossovers - a painful cost for the upgrade, but much better resolution than the stock crossover (crossovers are a place which really benefit from the increased high current capability of film and foil capacitors) with 2 JL Audio Fathom 113 subs (pooged as well) the rest of the system is totally direct coupled solid state -uses RTX polystyrenes in all the servos and teflons for bias bypasses. I have a teflon capped Sonic Frontier tube system, but I like the increased resolution of a direct coupled all jfet/fet servo controled signal path better.
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I could care less about measurements, in this case just listened. I would not dream of "messing" with you but your comment creates an almost no win situation. What is one to do measure group delay and decide which system "has" to sound better? You mix subjectivism and objectivism in a way that makes moving forward difficult.
In this case noise and dynamic range won as usual, the SNR at the low end of this system was extraordinary. All 1980's vintage CJ and Audio Research electronics and a Goldmund Reference/Koetsu TT.
Interesting, I like these "effects" but not those of a $200 handmade capacitor I must be hopelessly flawed.
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yes i do. Its by design to prevent endless nit picking when i am trying to make a valid (I think) point. A point that has been rarely considered in home music systems -- system group delay.
I hate those high price caps and never buy them. But when you learn what is involved, they are worth it. I can find what I want in caps for a lot less. I like the caps REL makes, primarily made for the non-audio industry (oil exploration and military et al) and they make them the same way for audio as they for military or communications industry - to last decades and give highest performance. If you get them for audio, you pay for all the QC and QA and testing etc etc that goes into such parts for thier usual customer -- which isnt audio. In fact, the owner, Bas Lim, didnt want to deal with audiophiles at all and would only make them if someone else answered the phones and not at his company.
I assumed you were a lot more into the testing/measurment and correlating it to meaningful tests that relate to sound. Is that a mistake? I hope not. That would be really depressing as you have so much experience in testing.
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Sorry I never came across Rel Caps at any customer, in fact I have have never come across any component selection in a precision instrument application that did not not have an exactly quantifiable reason for its use. Google Rel Cap, nothing but the usual suspects.
It's not my goal to live up to anyone's expectations, I've made all the same measurements and have a different set of conclusions so be it no animals were harmed in the process.
It's not my goal to live up to anyone's expectations, I've made all the same measurements and have a different set of conclusions so be it no animals were harmed in the process.
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Please learn to use the forum quote function properly. It is not difficult.Thats fine. I just made a mistake - I assumed. I can live with that.... different conclusions from similar or same data about system group delay. Glad to know no critters were harmed in any tests.
Look for RELiableCapacitor.com for thier audio page. It was put there about 15 years ago. I havent heard or talked to them in about 10 years.
I just checked and it is still up! Ask for bas Lim... if he is still alive.... he can tell you where and who his customers are. I recall that one LCR instrument maker used the best REL cap for thier instrument cal.... anyway ask Bas Lim.... other than that LCR instrument all his work goes to industry and not test equipment. and yes all quantifiable, of course.
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That sounds great - constant upgrades and improvements. I used to have a tri-amp'ed system with the old Quads as midrange sitting on top of two 18 inch Hartley drivers in huge folded transmission lines (TAA) and RTR electrostatic tweeter on top which were cap coupled directly from the plates of a tube amp. I am going that route again with newer speakers and amps, DSP crossover et al - I could use the Quad 2905 as midrange again or maybe both mid and top end. Those Quads are ruler flat in freq response and as low in distortion as some amplifiers. But dynamic range is still lacking. Esp. at the lower end. but I have that part well covered. Wanna feel a kick drum like you are standing in front of it? Its there! My music favorite is the blues - old and new. Miss the CES in Chicago because so much good blues could be heard after the show. Clean blues bass and rythm lines are thus important to me.
[I also keep a piano tuned in my living room so I can hear 'real' sounds. I am also learning to play electric bass guitar (have a loaner 5-string to practice with).] -RNM
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Its an old idea on how to make music -- before stereo became virtual music and replaced the old idea of what music should sound like.A piano - what's that?
There is nothing like a piano in the same room as the stereo and comparing the sound of each to see how close the virtual piano sound of the stereo is to the real thingy.
In fact if anyone brought any 'real' musical instrument into thier living room and heard it, they would burn their stereo... so dont do it. -RNM
I'm sometimes surprised by reproducing equipment in *the next* room. And especially by what kinds of old-fashioned things sound pretty convincing one room away. Klipsch horns are one example - colored and antique in the room with 'em but sometimes startling through a doorway. Go figure.
Thanks,
Chris
I had home concerts in my living room. Once after concert of Sergey Zadvorny (RIP) we were sitting around the table, drinking some tea. I switched on a record of the concert. Sergey said something on the record, his concertmaster turned head to the Sergey sitting near the table and replied something, then suddenly stopped, and after a pause we all laughed.
The key is, low distortions (I don't mean THD and IMD measurements) and very flat frequency response, from mikes to speakers. I used then a pair of large diaphragm microphones I made from Chinese copies of German microphones, tube amps, and my foldable line arrays. 31 - band EQs were connected between the console and the amps.
I can usually tell when a real instrument is playing in the next room compared to a couple of speakers being played. They just dont sound the same. But, I understand what you are saying.... we should listen thru doorways.
But, yes it is possible with high dynamic range speakers playing at realistic levels of playback..... in the next room.
Yes, the LIAR test: Listening In Another Room. Efficient speakers, like horns, can do the trick, but the killer follow through is if the sound can still convince in the same room as the speakers, directly in front of them, as in Chris's example.
In my experience only a thoroughly optimised system, taking everything into account, is capable of getting to this point ...
Frank
I've been fooled by door bells and telephone rings on a TV before.
?? It takes a wee bit more to sound like a sax or horn or drums or a piano is being played next to you. Let alone a group playing. We arent even close yet to sounding real. Pleasant, yes. Enjoyable, yes. Real, No. Distortion and frequency response is a good start, though. But we were there a long time ago...... let's get real.
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Then again, as Flanders and Swann observed a lifetime ago, "There's nothing I'd hate quite so much as an orchestra actually playing in my sitting room"
Song of Reproductiion - YouTube
All good fortune,
Chris
Song of Reproductiion - YouTube
All good fortune,
Chris
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