Yea, but a larger box will do that too.
Theoretically huge, but there are diminishing returns:
45L sealed box: system Q 1.4; bass bump 3.5dB
90L sealed box: system Q 1.1; bass bump 2dB
180L sealed box: system Q 1.0; bass bump 1.2dB
360L sealed box: system Q 0.9; bass bump 0.7dB
Bigger is better, but you'll never get them 'perfect' and the improvements drop off pretty rapidly.
Also, as you showed in post 33, the bass bump that is simulated does not show in your measurements. This is probably because the +3dB rise is cancelled out by -3dB of baffle step.
If they were mine, I would try a sealed, stuffed and bigger box - but not ridiculously big - maybe twice the current volume.
A (more?) important benefit to making the box bigger would be having a larger baffle. That would give you enough space to off-centre the driver, and to round over the edges of the baffle. This should fix or at least reduce the ~300Hz hole.
If, on your fully stuffed chart, that hole was filled, you'd have a near-perfect measurement (for use with a sub).
Attachments
What do you like in this driver?Perhaps, but 'very nice' it is not.
Are you sure? Without major help from either the amplifier or series resistance, the driver you refer to a/ wants a box so small it won't actually fit into it, and b/ would have the square root of jack output in that or any other modest sized box with a response that even vaguely approaches acceptable. It's got a -3dB mass-corner frequency of 574.11Hz. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a decent driver of its type, but based on the published spec., that is certainly not what it was meant for, and if it was, the people who developed it didn't know what they were doing as the electromechnical spec. is fundamentally unsuited to such use.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an8classicneospecs.jpg
I don't. Nor do I necessarily dislike. I merely pointed out a couple of rather basic facts. It's what would be loosely termed a horn driver. Assuming a large amount of EQ or series R is unacceptable, then it needs a compound horn, preferably with a high output impedance amplifier to produce a balanced response. This is a basic trait of its highly overdamped response, modest Fs and small amount of linear travel. Positive is the lack of additional cones.
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Thanks Scott. I dont like low QTS FRs, they dont suited to OB or BR.
I suppose this driver will fit in the Frugal Horn XL, what is good sound.
Then 8" neo looks great in the mids and treble to my eyes, compared with the other 8s. But low Qts and low bass output (going by the graph supplied by Commonsense Audio) looks lackluster.
I wouldn't be confident to build anything that would give satisfying bass from that - I would plan for stereo subs from the outset.
I went with the alnicos which "have more bass", and even then there's a world of difference when the sub goes on, even when set to a minimal volume.
However, if an appropriate enclosure could be designed for the neo that would give it good bass output, then I think I'd prefer that over the alnico, all things considered.
I wouldn't be confident to build anything that would give satisfying bass from that - I would plan for stereo subs from the outset.
I went with the alnicos which "have more bass", and even then there's a world of difference when the sub goes on, even when set to a minimal volume.
However, if an appropriate enclosure could be designed for the neo that would give it good bass output, then I think I'd prefer that over the alnico, all things considered.
Hi, Good to see you in shape again
Its possible enlarge the width in the FH plans with a good sound yet?
In my experience what up the bass output is the litrage and an stuffing inside the box.
Definitely not. It won't physically fit for a start, and as I noted, without major help from a high output impedance amplifier or EQ / series R, it really requires a compound horn (front & rear loading) to avoid a large hole in the response.
Great Success
Hi all,
I first want to thank everyone for their advice. Over the last few months I have slowly made progress to a state where I am very happy.
Of course, I wouldn't argue with getting a better DAC, but I have made big strides with the amp and speakers in the meantime!
Firstly, I purchased another 10" dayton sub and built a second sub. They do not operate in stereo, they pass through to a mono sub amp. I thought about upgrading to have a second plate amp in the future to get stereo, but by that point I will have the AN15"s to play with, so I won't bother with that!
With two amps, both almost in the corners of the room, I noticed the bass frequencies are a bit smoother at different points in the room, which is nice.
I still wasn't happy with the overall sound though, the bass just didn't sound right. It was better than before, but not there yet.
As per the advice of some, I experimented with sealing the hole in the speakers, changing them from a ported to a sealed design. After that I switched the subwoofer amp to run in forward frequency rather than reverse wave, as the speakers were no longer ported.
Wow, a big improvement! The bass region was less congested than before, and much smoother! Obviously, the system measured a whole lot better as well. It likely sounded poor before due to the ported bass frequencies clashing with the sub frequencies at the crossover region and cancelling each other out at different frequencies. Being sealed, they can both be in the same phase and not clash anymore.
With this test being successful, I fabricated some small planks of wood over the next few weeks, sprayed them matte black and then did several coats of clear on them, then glued them in. They still funnily enough look like holes, but close up you can see they are a gloss black colour.
Next I upgraded my Musical Paradise MP-301 amp with instructions detailed in this thread: Mods for Musical Paradise MP-301 - Tubes • Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
If you have a Musical Paradise MP-301 amp, I cannot recommend the mods in that thread enough.
There were two small parts I couldn't do, the capacitor and resistor on the ground line, and replacing two caps with Panasonic ones (the Panasonic caps are noted later in the thread as an improvement) - I'd like to try the Panasonic ones later, but not yet.
The mods added depth to the sound that was missing before.
Still, the bass was not really rocking my world.
Shortly after modding the amp, I bought a pair of Tung Sol 7851A tubes.
Wow! Bass heaven!!
So all along, the biggest problem with the bass were my Gold Lion KT66 tubes - just pathetic for bass. Really nice for everything else, just not bass! With the 7851As the bass is full and warm. The whole sound signature has a real sense of drive, along with a liquid smooth midrange all the way to the treble. There is also a bit of growl at the lowest registers, which I really love. It probably sounds like distortion, but it's not unpleasant like distortion usually is, it just sounds awesome.
They are definitely the best tubes I have used in the amp.
I would love to try a pair of PSANE KT88s or JJ KT77s one day. Regardless if I don't, the KT88s are very expensive, and the KT77s run the risk of not having as nice bass, so for now this is doing the trick!
These changes will definitely tide me over until I can build my Karlsonator AN 15" monsters.
Again I want to thank everyone for their advice, I think each change I have made has really improved things - each part is important and taking one piece out of the puzzle would ruin it I think.
So in dot point form, the changes I have made are:
Hi all,
I first want to thank everyone for their advice. Over the last few months I have slowly made progress to a state where I am very happy.
Of course, I wouldn't argue with getting a better DAC, but I have made big strides with the amp and speakers in the meantime!
Firstly, I purchased another 10" dayton sub and built a second sub. They do not operate in stereo, they pass through to a mono sub amp. I thought about upgrading to have a second plate amp in the future to get stereo, but by that point I will have the AN15"s to play with, so I won't bother with that!
With two amps, both almost in the corners of the room, I noticed the bass frequencies are a bit smoother at different points in the room, which is nice.
I still wasn't happy with the overall sound though, the bass just didn't sound right. It was better than before, but not there yet.
As per the advice of some, I experimented with sealing the hole in the speakers, changing them from a ported to a sealed design. After that I switched the subwoofer amp to run in forward frequency rather than reverse wave, as the speakers were no longer ported.
Wow, a big improvement! The bass region was less congested than before, and much smoother! Obviously, the system measured a whole lot better as well. It likely sounded poor before due to the ported bass frequencies clashing with the sub frequencies at the crossover region and cancelling each other out at different frequencies. Being sealed, they can both be in the same phase and not clash anymore.
With this test being successful, I fabricated some small planks of wood over the next few weeks, sprayed them matte black and then did several coats of clear on them, then glued them in. They still funnily enough look like holes, but close up you can see they are a gloss black colour.
Next I upgraded my Musical Paradise MP-301 amp with instructions detailed in this thread: Mods for Musical Paradise MP-301 - Tubes • Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
If you have a Musical Paradise MP-301 amp, I cannot recommend the mods in that thread enough.
There were two small parts I couldn't do, the capacitor and resistor on the ground line, and replacing two caps with Panasonic ones (the Panasonic caps are noted later in the thread as an improvement) - I'd like to try the Panasonic ones later, but not yet.
The mods added depth to the sound that was missing before.
Still, the bass was not really rocking my world.
Shortly after modding the amp, I bought a pair of Tung Sol 7851A tubes.
Wow! Bass heaven!!
So all along, the biggest problem with the bass were my Gold Lion KT66 tubes - just pathetic for bass. Really nice for everything else, just not bass! With the 7851As the bass is full and warm. The whole sound signature has a real sense of drive, along with a liquid smooth midrange all the way to the treble. There is also a bit of growl at the lowest registers, which I really love. It probably sounds like distortion, but it's not unpleasant like distortion usually is, it just sounds awesome.
They are definitely the best tubes I have used in the amp.
I would love to try a pair of PSANE KT88s or JJ KT77s one day. Regardless if I don't, the KT88s are very expensive, and the KT77s run the risk of not having as nice bass, so for now this is doing the trick!
These changes will definitely tide me over until I can build my Karlsonator AN 15" monsters.
Again I want to thank everyone for their advice, I think each change I have made has really improved things - each part is important and taking one piece out of the puzzle would ruin it I think.
So in dot point form, the changes I have made are:
- Build second sub, even if it is still in mono mode.
- Seal the full-rangers
- Upgrade the amp with better capacitors
- Upgrade from KT66 to 7851A tubes
- Status
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