Robert - of the Mark Audio drivers, I'd suggest you try either the A7.3( metal not paper) or either of the A10 - paper or metal. Of the numerous enclosures I've built for any of the MA family, the Pensil series by Scott Lindgren are probably the best compromise of performance and ease of build / compact floor space.
A7.3 = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil7s3-map.pdf
A10.3 = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
A10P = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
A7.3 = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil7s3-map.pdf
A10.3 = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
A10P = http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
Robert, thankyou for your kind words! Apparently you knew just what I was trying to convey without charts, graphs, microphones, or computer analysis of a specific fullrange speaker. Of the 5 sets of speakers that I have built, my personal favorite is the Pencil with the Mark Audio A-7.3 metal driver. The design is spot-on, they are fairly easy to build, and best of all they sound wonderful with my old Marantz 2245 Receiver with a classic Sony C222ES CD Player as the source (I-Phone with Pandora sometimes). You are right about sounding good to the ear, that is the true litmus test of audio in my guesstimation. "Happy Listening My Brother"
Mac
Mac
I must disagree whole-heartedly....and I have heard of a theory as to why full-rangers seemingly sound "magical". I had a bitter discussion with a maker of a well known full range brand. I queried him as to why the response curve was rather jagged, flailing up & down 10 Db.....thru out the range. His response was he had successfully created a much smoother responding driver, but that his customers didn't like how it "sounded". The theory of "the magic" of full-rangers, was particular musical instruments, vocal ranges,...fall within these "hot" response peaks....drawing out these voices & instruments. "Those instruments weren't there before!!"......no, they were there, but not as loud.
------------------------------------------------------------------Rick............
------------------------------------------------------------------Rick............
In that specific case, I'd go for the A7.3 - if you can high pass the Alpairs, so much the better.
The A10.3 - or 10P would be my suggestion for a single driver solution where a sub is not practical, or for centre channel in a small home theatre, but I personally prefer the upper minds and top octaves ( that I can still hear) of the 7s . I could get a bit squishy in describing the differences in tweakster audiophile bafflegab, but there are differences I hear that I wouldn't know exactly how to parse from the published graphs, or third party measurements that may exist.
The A10.3 - or 10P would be my suggestion for a single driver solution where a sub is not practical, or for centre channel in a small home theatre, but I personally prefer the upper minds and top octaves ( that I can still hear) of the 7s . I could get a bit squishy in describing the differences in tweakster audiophile bafflegab, but there are differences I hear that I wouldn't know exactly how to parse from the published graphs, or third party measurements that may exist.
How about selecting a wide band speaker driver with Jordan type of speaker driver which has extended high frequency response due to its design, then put a slight bump on lower frequencies (I read BBC ls35a in its monitors used bump to gave a feeling of more bass), then design a ported enclosure to even further extend the response ? This way we can stretch the frequency response at both ends of a wide band driver.
This would be departure from proper High Fidelity way of doing things. But do give your suggestions and views.
This would be departure from proper High Fidelity way of doing things. But do give your suggestions and views.
Mostly Yes, but then there was the Kleinhorn....
I have Lowther DX4s and have used them with Hedlund Horns. Very good sound from 80 to 10K hz. I added a subwoofer to provide the lowest frequencies.
But if you really want to go real full range with one driver, then you would have to resort to something like the Kleinhorn that Nelson Pass created. You can search the Web to find the story about that speaker.
I still think that it is a compromise to have the full range driver to reproduce bass. For best sound, it makes the most sense to have a separate woofer and use the full range driver as a wideband driver.
Retsel
I have Lowther DX4s and have used them with Hedlund Horns. Very good sound from 80 to 10K hz. I added a subwoofer to provide the lowest frequencies.
But if you really want to go real full range with one driver, then you would have to resort to something like the Kleinhorn that Nelson Pass created. You can search the Web to find the story about that speaker.
I still think that it is a compromise to have the full range driver to reproduce bass. For best sound, it makes the most sense to have a separate woofer and use the full range driver as a wideband driver.
Retsel
If mono woofers, I'd say no higher than 100Hz - if stereo, I've gone as high as 330 (bi-amped "FAST")
Maybe I'm bass sensitive but I can usually locate a mono sub if it's crossed above 70Hz, which is VERY annoying when it comes to trying to recreate an illusion of the live event. Of course a sealed speaker will acoustically limit the low end, I'm hoping to do that without the need for a high pass circuit, but fortunately if I need the high pass I've got a Vendetta over sitting on the shelf. I've read comments that the voice coil will still try and drive the lower frequencies but how perilous that is might depend on how hard one tries to drive the system. With the Arrestor circuit built into the driver that might help keep things protected. I'm not sure what the upper level of safe dB could be. Maybe someone else can suggest what would be reasonable for a 7.3 in a sealed enclosure. I'll admit about 5% of the time I get in the mood to crank it up. Would welcome others thoughts on this as my experience with the Alpairs is limited to just a bit of listening to a couple of set ups over the years at Burning Amp.
Not completely, the late, mostly great, Babb Lorelei HT monitor did it with ease and at typical HIFI SPLs and in only a 1 ft^3 sealed cab to boot. The downside of course was cost and due to its design, couldn't be repaired. With a little more development to 'iron out' its sibilance and add a second model to narrow up its pattern for HIFI apps......... Unfortunately, its new owner, DC Gold, took it in another direction more in line with the other Babb marine products.
Agree otherwise, a two way at minimum and personally prefer three way, limiting the 'FR' to the critical phone BW + sufficient ~flat BW on each side based on the XO's slope order.
GM
well, several of the drivers in discussion in this thread - i.e. the Alpair metals - 6.2, 7.3,10.3 are very much "Jordan type" drivers, with in fact a certain amount of "BSC" contouring designed into their frequency response. If by "put(ting) a slight bump on lower frequencies" you mean equalization boost of the signal, there's usually a price to pay in the sacrifice of excursion.
As for the LS3/5A - there's a long history to that one, and I think it's important to remember the original design brief - as a small sealed monitor for radio broadcasts to be used in tightly confined spaces. From that I'd infer - "at comfortable listening levels in the near field" - a situation many of us would be familiar with in our computer desktop systems, but which doesn't necessarily upscale well to larger environs.
In the approx 40yrs that this model has been in production - including several resurrections and re-imaginings as some of the original drivers ceased production, or folks like Linn, JR and KEF came out with their own similar models, there've no doubt been many variations on the theme - "authorized" or otherwise - but there was certainly rather more than just a little bass boost going on in the original crossover network to achieve the targeted sonic signature - including compensation for the grille material .
LS3/5A Support
First I will say that I built one full range speaker that used three 8" "Pioneer Type" full ranges in very large enclosures driven by multiple amps. With minimal equalization, they pretty much rocked. This was in the 70s.
I've been eying full ranges to use as a midrange, with the crossover points high and low to hopefully minimize their effect on the sound. I'm thinking about these FaitalPRO 6FE100 6" Professional Midrange Midbass Woofer 8 Ohm crossed over at 200 Hz and 3 kHz. I'm hoping that this will give the midrange some coherence while still reaping the advantages of a 3 way. Am I thinking right?
You are thinking right if you want to build a more traditional 3 way. However in my opinion where a full range driver comes into its own level of distinction is covering at least another octave higher and lower. Other opinions may differ and I'll be the first to acknowledge there are many ways to make good speakers including the one you just mentioned.
Hi Octavia,
Those Frugelhorns at BA16 were my son's. He and I built them about 3 years ago. He originally had Fostex drivers in them, but replaced them with the Alpairs about a year ago and we both agree they sound better.
Depending on when you were listening, they were being driven by either the Amp Camp Amp monoblocks (the wedges) or the big F5 stereo amp. Preamp was a Bottlehead Smash. Phono pre was a "Le Pacific", Mad_K version. Source was a Pioneer PL-530 with a "nothing special" Shure M91ED cartridge.
Listening conditions were less than ideal, but I'm glad you liked them. Credit scottmoose/chrisb/planet 10.
Those Frugelhorns at BA16 were my son's. He and I built them about 3 years ago. He originally had Fostex drivers in them, but replaced them with the Alpairs about a year ago and we both agree they sound better.
Depending on when you were listening, they were being driven by either the Amp Camp Amp monoblocks (the wedges) or the big F5 stereo amp. Preamp was a Bottlehead Smash. Phono pre was a "Le Pacific", Mad_K version. Source was a Pioneer PL-530 with a "nothing special" Shure M91ED cartridge.
Listening conditions were less than ideal, but I'm glad you liked them. Credit scottmoose/chrisb/planet 10.
I investigated crossing over higher and lower. The dispersion drops off after 3kHz (which is actually quite good) and the xmax is only (I think I remember) 2 mm. However, in practice this might work quite well. I am trying to "cheat" after all, by trying to get the coherent, point source performance of a full range, along with full dynamic bass.
The woofer will be pretty easy. I'm thinking about using a subwoofer (8" or 10") for the bass. I want to make the cabinets sealed; not too big (2 cu ft max if possible) and I know I will need around 0.5 cu ft for the Faital Pros if I cross them over very low. There's a lot of woofers and subwoofers available that will work within these parameters.
The tweeter and its crossover are another story. I'm not really sure what to do about them.
Another idea was to cross the Faital Pros over at the baffle step, so I can do baffle step compensation with just one L-pad. This idea is not sorted out yet; it all depends on what I can get without shelling out too much $$$.
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