True full range (20- 20K) ) from a single driver - yes, let's admit that's a bit of a pipe dream - hell, even from many 2 or 3 ways that'd be a stretch. But there's something to be said for a well implemented wideband driver system used within its limitations - and I'd opine that the more components in a system, the greater the chance of a poorly integrated design sounding far less coherent.
The 20Hz - 20kHz 'accepted' range of the human ear is a bit of a stretch in itself in that one cannot really hear 20Hz and most of us will not be able to hear abouve around 15kHz if you are many years past 30, so a more realistic range for human hearing is 25Hz - 15kHz. This is still mostly unacheivable for any single drive unit but one can get close enough for it not be an issue.
What you gain through the lack of crossover and having a single point sound source
outweighs the lack of absolute fullrange capability. At least at normal listening levels.
I'd agree about the fewer components the better.
What you gain through the lack of crossover and having a single point sound source
outweighs the lack of absolute fullrange capability. At least at normal listening levels.
I'd agree about the fewer components the better.
The best full-range drivers I have heard were the ones Mr. Pass brought for Burning Amp this year. In the reasonably large sealed enclosures housing them, they had pretty solid bass response down to ~60hz, which was very impressive considering their size and performance on around the rest of the frequency band. Mr. Pass noted that they had a slight peak around 7khz, and I noticed that the upper-midrange was the slightest bit harsh for me.
Dayton Audio makes a point-source series of full-range drivers including an 8" with an Fs around 46hz and a 96.5dB sensitivity: Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver . If I were into building full-ranges, I'd try one in a large ported enclosure tuned to 40-45hz and see what kind of bass these can really put out. Their recommended enclosure is a 1.15cube ported design with an F3 of 68hz, but I like low bass and don't care as much about accuracy
It'd be very hard in practice to get the low response that you'd typically need a pair of 18s to get combined with the highs from a tweeter. Planars are interesting in this regard since it's a very large driver which can still move very quickly by virtue of very low mass. It makes sense to me that Magnepan, Quad, and Martin Logan speakers still have cult followings.
Dayton Audio makes a point-source series of full-range drivers including an 8" with an Fs around 46hz and a 96.5dB sensitivity: Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver . If I were into building full-ranges, I'd try one in a large ported enclosure tuned to 40-45hz and see what kind of bass these can really put out. Their recommended enclosure is a 1.15cube ported design with an F3 of 68hz, but I like low bass and don't care as much about accuracy
It'd be very hard in practice to get the low response that you'd typically need a pair of 18s to get combined with the highs from a tweeter. Planars are interesting in this regard since it's a very large driver which can still move very quickly by virtue of very low mass. It makes sense to me that Magnepan, Quad, and Martin Logan speakers still have cult followings.
crossover phobia
Why would you ask a driver to do more than it is capable of ?
It's all about a mind set.
Let a wide band driver do what it can; cross over low enough and high enough and will will experience all the glory of full range.
This has already been understood since the late 1970's / early 1980's
It was exemplified as the Levinson HQD system.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Why would you ask a driver to do more than it is capable of ?
It's all about a mind set.
Let a wide band driver do what it can; cross over low enough and high enough and will will experience all the glory of full range.
This has already been understood since the late 1970's / early 1980's
It was exemplified as the Levinson HQD system.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
There is no consensus, any more than there is consensus on any other aspect of audio.
That depends on what you use as your comparative baseline, and what you mean by 'hidef'.
What basis of comparison is being used, what is the room size & acoustics, what is the listening distance, what is the 3-way loudspeaker with what drivers and what crossover (specifically), what is the nature of the rest of the system (notably the amplifier output impedance), what programme material is to be played through the system, and what personal preferences are involved? What basis do you use to define what 'worse' or 'better' means? Since these last are entirely subjective factors, there is no single answer, or any at all worth the reading.
Speaking as somebody who designs single-driver based wideband (a somewhat happier term, but 'full range' has been around since the 1940s or so, and no amount of pontificating is going to shift it) speakers and multiway types, I would simply point out that both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages (neither of which are blanket characteristics -a Mark Audio driver is rather different to a Lowther for e.g.). All design is compromise. You simply select what you feel to be the optimum balance for a given set of conditions and personal preferences, hopefully without attempting to impose them on others.
Last edited:
Its all about how loud you want to go. A 3" driver can do 20Hz, just quietly.
A large listening room with reasonable SPL at 20Hz will need large drivers. A little nearfield desktop system? A couple of 5" drivers might well be enough (just). Relax the requirements to 40Hz with a gentle rolloff, and either SPL can increase, or driver size can drop.
Chris
You can also ask: are fish a falacy? Is a hammer a falacy?
A full range driver is just that: a thingy, with things it can do and things it cannot.
What it can do: clarity, openness, simplicity, coherence.
What it can't: be superduper loud or bass heavy.
In the end it boils down to taste. I like full range drivers for the same reason I like single speed, fixed gear bicycles over complex, multigeared ones: simplicity and elegance. Besides, they suit my listening requirements well: I live in a small, noisy inner city environment, so I have to prioritize low-volume quality above all else. Full range drivers do this really well.
Yes, they do colour sound. So what? If it's coloration that's nice, than why the hell not. No, they can't come close to a live performance, but hey, less money for stupid complex boxes, crossovers and esotheric tweeters means more money for concerts
A full range driver is just that: a thingy, with things it can do and things it cannot.
What it can do: clarity, openness, simplicity, coherence.
What it can't: be superduper loud or bass heavy.
In the end it boils down to taste. I like full range drivers for the same reason I like single speed, fixed gear bicycles over complex, multigeared ones: simplicity and elegance. Besides, they suit my listening requirements well: I live in a small, noisy inner city environment, so I have to prioritize low-volume quality above all else. Full range drivers do this really well.
Yes, they do colour sound. So what? If it's coloration that's nice, than why the hell not. No, they can't come close to a live performance, but hey, less money for stupid complex boxes, crossovers and esotheric tweeters means more money for concerts
Within its pass band a wide band or full range driver definitely can be quite high definition in terms of clarity of individual instruments, acoustic space, and all the other indicators that convey real sounds, real instruments, in real space. Of course implementation is everything and not all drivers are created equal. Depending on your diver selection and intended use you might add a helper subwoofer and helper super tweeter. Full range drivers aren't the only way to go but they are a viable path especially if you are sensitive to phase shifts an other anomalies that can occur in typical multi driver systems.
Can I stick my nose in here please? I chose full range drivers for my first speaker project mostly on the basis of simplicity. I had a vision of the aesthetics of the speakers which were complex and figured I should simplify the electronic side of the project until I learned more. I selected a pair of Tang Band 1879 4" drivers and they sound gorgeous. I do use a sub to take care of the lows and ultimately added free standing super tweeters. A friend came around to listen and bought them. So now I'm building another two pairs to replace and trying 4" Alpair 7.3's which get a good rap (the TB's are more expensive now with the dollar difference). I have no measuring equipment so cannot submit graphical proof, but they have a clarity and presence that is impressive. I'm keen to hear the Alpairs soon-ish.
John - the A7.3s are a different animal than the W4-1879s, but as you've probably gleaned from above, and as will be repeated below, both have their place in the list of optional drivers with which to play. I've heard both in roughly similar enclosure designs, and happen to prefer the Alpairs.
OnAudio/jazbo8 - sooner or later, the only way to be sure is to try and put your ears on a "FR" / singledriver/wideband system. Unfortunately, even before the slow death of the retail audio trade, there was a dearth of such systems being produced or widely accessible for audition at "bricks and mortar" stores.
I've been in the DIY hobby for over 15yrs, and listening to commercial mulitways for over 50yrs, and cost aside, many of the latter don't float my boat.
OnAudio/jazbo8 - sooner or later, the only way to be sure is to try and put your ears on a "FR" / singledriver/wideband system. Unfortunately, even before the slow death of the retail audio trade, there was a dearth of such systems being produced or widely accessible for audition at "bricks and mortar" stores.
I've been in the DIY hobby for over 15yrs, and listening to commercial mulitways for over 50yrs, and cost aside, many of the latter don't float my boat.
Thanks for your input guys. I do expect a different sound from the Alpairs and depending on how they appeal I may go back to the TB's. They have a metal cone as opposed to bamboo and I'd be surprised if they sounded similar, but I like to experiment. If I can figure a way to get photos from my iphone to my laptop, I'll post some pics.
FWIW, I've heard just about every paper and metal cone driver produced by Mark Audio, and there are versions using both materials in almost every size. In some cases I could live with the sound of either - e.g. A6 or 10 - but in others - A7, I definitely prefer the metal - so even in products by the same manufacturer, there may be differences in performance that transcend the materials themselves.
After several experiences with cheap metal cone MCM drivers in a Bottlehead designed line array (powered by Paramount 300B) and what turned out to be damaged Jordan JX92s driven by rather poorly implemented chip amp (can't remember the exact model) I can remember my trepidation on listening to the first A7s. Compared to RS 40-1197 ( FE103 variant) and Fostex FE126 and 127 that we were playing with at the time, I was not disappointed.
After several experiences with cheap metal cone MCM drivers in a Bottlehead designed line array (powered by Paramount 300B) and what turned out to be damaged Jordan JX92s driven by rather poorly implemented chip amp (can't remember the exact model) I can remember my trepidation on listening to the first A7s. Compared to RS 40-1197 ( FE103 variant) and Fostex FE126 and 127 that we were playing with at the time, I was not disappointed.
"Personal Opinion Concerning Fullrange Speakers"
I have'nt posted anything in awhile, but this thread intrigued me! I am one of those oldtimers who always owned and used Multi-Way speakers all my life. and i had no idea that there were any alternatives?
A little over two years ago I became interested in the fullrange scene. I became a member of DIY AUDIO, and read the speaker building threads from all the fullrange enthusiast, and said to myself I have got to try this for myself. Needless to say, I am glad that I did.
I have built 5 pairs of fullrange speakers now using Mark Audio and Tang Band Drivers, and for me there is a clarity to the music that is just not there in Multi-Ways! No you are not going to get earth shaking bass from fullrange, but I think you get an enjoyment of musical reproduction that is pretty near that of being right there in the studio or concert hall.
So jump in, give yourself a treat and become one of folks who just may find something you've been missing!!
Mac
I have'nt posted anything in awhile, but this thread intrigued me! I am one of those oldtimers who always owned and used Multi-Way speakers all my life. and i had no idea that there were any alternatives?
A little over two years ago I became interested in the fullrange scene. I became a member of DIY AUDIO, and read the speaker building threads from all the fullrange enthusiast, and said to myself I have got to try this for myself. Needless to say, I am glad that I did.
I have built 5 pairs of fullrange speakers now using Mark Audio and Tang Band Drivers, and for me there is a clarity to the music that is just not there in Multi-Ways! No you are not going to get earth shaking bass from fullrange, but I think you get an enjoyment of musical reproduction that is pretty near that of being right there in the studio or concert hall.
So jump in, give yourself a treat and become one of folks who just may find something you've been missing!!
Mac
Somehow while multi-tasking at work, a poignantly eloquent reply to Octavia's post above was lost. In short, it asked "which amp was that driving the FH3/A7.3?" While not as blisteringly hot a "burning" amp as many at the show might have been, the ACA (DIY audio mono block kits in my case) are a delicious combination with the Alpairs.
For those looking for a bit more low end grunt than a single 70mm driver can achieve, the option of a "FAST" (still cringe at the name, but it's generally understood) can get close to being an acceptable compromise between the two. I'm presently running a pair of A12PW and A7.3 per side in an MTM - my favorite multi-way built yet. As much as I quite liked the ESS AMT1 based 3-way a few years ago, bi / di-poles have just never worked- actually that should read "passed WAF" - in my current abode.
For those looking for a bit more low end grunt than a single 70mm driver can achieve, the option of a "FAST" (still cringe at the name, but it's generally understood) can get close to being an acceptable compromise between the two. I'm presently running a pair of A12PW and A7.3 per side in an MTM - my favorite multi-way built yet. As much as I quite liked the ESS AMT1 based 3-way a few years ago, bi / di-poles have just never worked- actually that should read "passed WAF" - in my current abode.
Hello, Mac.I have'nt posted anything in awhile, but this thread intrigued me! I am one of those oldtimers who always owned and used Multi-Way speakers all my life. and i had no idea that there were any alternatives?
A little over two years ago I became interested in the fullrange scene. I became a member of DIY AUDIO, and read the speaker building threads from all the fullrange enthusiast, and said to myself I have got to try this for myself. Needless to say, I am glad that I did.
I have built 5 pairs of fullrange speakers now using Mark Audio and Tang Band Drivers, and for me there is a clarity to the music that is just not there in Multi-Ways! No you are not going to get earth shaking bass from fullrange, but I think you get an enjoyment of musical reproduction that is pretty near that of being right there in the studio or concert hall.
So jump in, give yourself a treat and become one of folks who just may find something you've been missing!!
Mac
Love your "personal opinion". While I have a plethora of test equipment such as LMS which will run gated frequency responses to duplicate anechoic conditions, spectrum analysers, and a Tektronix distortion analyser, none of these marvels of electronics have ears. Sometimes, speakers with the most bizarre curves can produce a most incredible sound, especially if the listener hasn't seen the curves before listening to the speaker - preordained conclusions. We seem to have an innate ability to convince ouselves of that which doesn't exist or the non existence of that which does. I've come to the conclusion after decades of audio experiences that if so called afficionados spent less time listening to their equipment, they would, as you so eloquently said, "give themselves a treat and find something they've been missing". The music.
Oh, you've aroused my interest in those mark Audio speakers and I just might get some just to SEE how they sound.
Robert.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.