serenechaos said:
I don't know how to put "FR" and "horn load" in the same sentence.
Horn loading is narrow band by nature, doesn't want to go full range.
I've built a few back loaded horns, one that had blended into the TL nicely, so the back wave FR went flat to 40 Hz.
Doesn't that therefore fall into the definition of FR, accepting the compromises in power-handling inherent in all such units when compared to, say, large 15in HE woofers etc? Yes, they can all be considered wide BW midranges, or large tweeters if you prefer, but surely the basic definition of a driver that covers the majority of the audible BW is acceptable enough?
I'm a little unsure about why you're having such a problem using the horn loading & FR terms together, unless, or course, you're stipulating that the entire operating BW of the chosen driver has to be horn loaded before you can use the term FR?
Must be nice to have that kind of room / budget.
I'm not certain (forgive me) it'd be 'easier' for most people either, as multi-way front-horns, for all their positives, also have their own set of issues too. HK26147 said:
It can be, as justifiably as anything else with 'FR' drivers. Nobody said a horn has to operate over the entire audible BW. A BLH is used, for e.g., like it's BR cousins, to boost output below the driver's mass-corner. That doesn't mean it's not a horn variation.
Of course all FRers are not equal and xmax will soon be reached on an OB with bass eq. It all depends on how much vol you need to get your metal rocks off.
Sometimes it is the sound of a speaker near its limits that enhances certain types of music. If you have had good times at parties listening to a track on a small system cranked to the max, then a clean sound will leave you un-moved.
Another approach is to use a smaller amp which starts to compress before your speakers self destruct, tubes are very good for this.
Sometimes it is the sound of a speaker near its limits that enhances certain types of music. If you have had good times at parties listening to a track on a small system cranked to the max, then a clean sound will leave you un-moved.
Another approach is to use a smaller amp which starts to compress before your speakers self destruct, tubes are very good for this.
Last fall's set up for a wedding reception:
2 JBL 2206 drivers in a Neo-MTM cab with a JBL 2380A Bi-Radial Horn and 2"2446H drivers, and 2 2242H 18" sub woofers.
Powered by Crown Macro 2400 amps - close to 4kw of power.
Set up appropriately outdoors; The sound was as clean as the source material, with very large overhead ( crest factor ).
Even hours after the event listeners wanting to play favorite tracks just to hear what they sound like "large", and the system coasted without any audible effects of thermal compression.
Philosophically, I really don't want to have my sound system adding any color/distortion.
And I don't think FR is the best option for HM
JayH3 said:
I have a pair of Aura NS3 (4.5ltr, ported ~65hz, with some PC EQ) running off an 41hz Amp6-basic for computer speakers. They sound great for background/new music listening. But I found that metal still sounds better on a large system even on low volumes.
I also tried a pair of CSS FR125S in 9ltr ported, but it just did not cut it. Once I added a sub, it improved the sound greatly. As mentioned above there is a lot of low frequency in most metal, even in cold, grim black metal
HK26147 said:
The more I think about it, the more I agree that the average FR isn't the best format for high-demand music. I suppose I felt that relating my experience would be helpful, but I should have added that FR is a long row to hoe if you're playing loud & low. I'll go back to my statement about my garage sale 10" wideband two-ways, large format works better for rock. Maybe a very simple three-way (doesn't have to be ruler flat for metal), or even the venerable DIII (I've done two and they excell at being loud).
Alot of useful replies here.
So as much as I wanted to experiment with some FR speakers, it looks like they wont be versatile enough for me.
That was interesting to read about the dopplar effect on the hf. I hadnt really thought of that before. That must be a big part of the reason alot of the FR speakers have xmax of 1.0 mm or less.
So as much as I wanted to experiment with some FR speakers, it looks like they wont be versatile enough for me.
That was interesting to read about the dopplar effect on the hf. I hadnt really thought of that before. That must be a big part of the reason alot of the FR speakers have xmax of 1.0 mm or less.
I was brought up on a diet of doppler distortion and multi-way speakers.
Given all that I had read, when I heard decent FRs I was astonished that a single speaker could sound so good. They're easy to drive, there are no crossover problems, you get a lot of volume for your watts, and imaging is good. I wouldn't be looking at a tweeter, the treble is a bit forward if anything, and tweeters would complicate the imaging. I'd swap mine for a pair of Linkwitz's Plutos, if there was anywhere to put them (not that these monkey coffins are small), but they're the only other speakers I see out there that really excite much desire.
I think FRs can represent good value for money, maybe even the best, when considered in the context of a (comparatively) lo-cost system as a whole.
Regardless of what kind of music you listen to.
Try to get to hear a pair before you make up your mind.
w
Given all that I had read, when I heard decent FRs I was astonished that a single speaker could sound so good. They're easy to drive, there are no crossover problems, you get a lot of volume for your watts, and imaging is good. I wouldn't be looking at a tweeter, the treble is a bit forward if anything, and tweeters would complicate the imaging. I'd swap mine for a pair of Linkwitz's Plutos, if there was anywhere to put them (not that these monkey coffins are small), but they're the only other speakers I see out there that really excite much desire.
I think FRs can represent good value for money, maybe even the best, when considered in the context of a (comparatively) lo-cost system as a whole.
Regardless of what kind of music you listen to.
Try to get to hear a pair before you make up your mind.
w
I used to have the link to a reprint of some of Klipsch's original work on this...
However check this - if you haven't already.
http://sound.westhost.com/doppler.htm.
I have heard some wonderful sounding electro stats/planars and single speaker systems. If I listened to nothing but "light demand" music it would be the perfect solution. My listening tastes rules these out.
In the 70's a friend was convinced he had found Nirvana in Magnepan's. He would not stop raving about them, until I put on a recording by Frederick Fennell. Very shortly into the recording, as the dynamic range built, the Magnepan started going into distortion. Klipschorns handled this recording easily.
I hardly listen to anything else than metal on my speakers which are Fostex 206s in a BLH though you either need a sub to handle the lowest frequencies or adjust the amplfier input cap to cut off below the horn corner frequency but that hardly matters which kind of music you play. The necsessity is just more obvious in metal and other demanding complex forms of music like orchestral classical music than with more simple acoustic music. Excessive cone travel is the problem. Full range speakers are not meant to have excusrsion outside their 1mm Xmax.
Complexity isn't really the issue per se. Some very simple music can cause some speakers a major headache. The main problem is LF transient handling capability, as alluded to above. They just can't shift enough air before compression sets in. The greatest acoustic power demands in 99.99% of music are below ~500Hz, & in rock / metal (progressive aside, with its frequent massive LF extension from synths etc) the most demanding region is from about 60Hz - 120Hz. Naturally, sod's law states that the highest excursion in a vented box occurs an octave above Fb, and as many are tuned to about 40Hz, this puts max excursion slap-bang in the middle of this zone. So, FWIW, if rock / metal etc. is the order of the day, it's worth tuning higher, & supporting the region below it with subs, or better, use dedicated woofers to handle the entire high energy LF zone & cross to your wide-band unit higher up.
Excuse me if this has already been said -- I didn't read the thread in detail.
The primary reason that single driver speakers don't to metal well is Doppler distortion. The same applies to any bass heavy genre. Once the cone is moving significantly at any given frequency, it modulates all other frequencies at that rate causing beat frequencies that are not harmonically related. It is the same sound one gets with high feed back amplifiers (Transient Intermodulation Distortion) only at much higher levels.
I would never intentionally play a heavy metal cut, but IMO, MY 8"MLTL's will do Alison Krauss exceedinglsy well, Pink Floyd just fine and Led Zeppelin so-so.
Bob
The primary reason that single driver speakers don't to metal well is Doppler distortion. The same applies to any bass heavy genre. Once the cone is moving significantly at any given frequency, it modulates all other frequencies at that rate causing beat frequencies that are not harmonically related. It is the same sound one gets with high feed back amplifiers (Transient Intermodulation Distortion) only at much higher levels.
I would never intentionally play a heavy metal cut, but IMO, MY 8"MLTL's will do Alison Krauss exceedinglsy well, Pink Floyd just fine and Led Zeppelin so-so.
Bob
"What cabs do you have your 165's in?"
Giantstairs,
My 165's are in the Fostex 208 recomended BLH. I cant tell you why this combination works but it does. The Pioneer B20 works in the 208 cab also but distortion goes way up, I'm guessing its from too much cone movement.
Maybe the limited cone movement of the 165 is the reason it does seem to work with more involved music. Anyone have thoughts on that?
Giantstairs,
My 165's are in the Fostex 208 recomended BLH. I cant tell you why this combination works but it does. The Pioneer B20 works in the 208 cab also but distortion goes way up, I'm guessing its from too much cone movement.
Maybe the limited cone movement of the 165 is the reason it does seem to work with more involved music. Anyone have thoughts on that?
This has probably been posted before...
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index1.html
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index2.html
On the last link is this:
" Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding "edge." "
The "1mm" bit caught my eye.
It doesn't take much to get a driver to that excursion.
Syd
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index1.html
http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index2.html
On the last link is this:
" Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding "edge." "
The "1mm" bit caught my eye.
It doesn't take much to get a driver to that excursion.
Syd
HK26147 said:
Interestingly we're now approaching one of my own theories.
There has been great debate about the "first watt" principle for years in the diy community although in theory there is no good explaination as to why the first watt would sound any better than the second or the hundred watt. I suspect that most of this advantage of the first watt is exactly because of the very limited cone travel on such a system. So instead of "first watt" we should actually be taking about "first mm" of excursion.
Let's not forget that many full range drivers have a specified x-max of about 1mm meaning maximum linear excursion is only 2mm peak to peak or less. So outside this area we'll not only have doppler distortion but also compression distortion as the voice coil moves into non-linear excursion mode.
In reality it applies to any driver. As soon as the cone starts moving from it's resting position it starts to distort, so limiting cone movement is vital for sound quality. At least that is my theory.
Hi.
I listen to heavy metal and rock music (tool,station, agalloch...) and was fro some years a believer that small membranes sound better. I was totally blown by their vocal reproduction, excellent tone folowing and speed, clarity in midrange etc. Then I discovered soundstage and with it big 12" bass speakers with accordian surroundings which sounded best for my taste (tighter, crisper bass). I just combined these two elements and there it was - a fostex fe 164 crossed at 150Hz and LT12 from eminence. Not bad, but if you want clarity, speed, no cone movement you go for front horns-lecleach is just as good as any. But you need at least 20m2 of a room... This was my last system- I will always remember the sound of metallica´s Until it sleeps some two years ago when I was auditioning Hypex modules. The sound form my old MF A1 and sony STR6046 was OK but ultra clean from hypex and horns. The sound was so well controlled and distortionless that you couldn´t hear annoying fullrange squak from 206E (they were than a bit modified in front horns much better sounding than FE164). Nada. We crancked the sound so high that we had to leave room for awhile (it was fun...) and then run to the amp turning it down a bit. Front horn loading makes wonders to FRs. Its sound gives a mature tone and relaxed sound to FE206E. I made mine from plastic and am selling them as a design piece in a local store.
Now I listen to eminence with tweeter placed in center and crossed at 6000 Hz (1st order) in CB. The box is too small but sound is ok. It is smaller than with horns and much less dynamic. But big bass is what you really need, especially if you like to listen to metal with a lot of reverberation and flowing sounds (this will destroy you, russian circles, perfect circle, etc...).
I never heard them but think that my "home time aligned" eminences are something as a coax, and that is something you could try to hear also (Hemp, PA (the pa12cxa)...). Silver Iris, Visatone B200+bass augment speaker or Audio Nirvana 12 with tweeter (these could be a killer, should chack for Pass article, he will examine these speakers soon or he had them already). I would recomend you to stick with wideband approach as it is best solution for most music.
!!
T
I listen to heavy metal and rock music (tool,station, agalloch...) and was fro some years a believer that small membranes sound better. I was totally blown by their vocal reproduction, excellent tone folowing and speed, clarity in midrange etc. Then I discovered soundstage and with it big 12" bass speakers with accordian surroundings which sounded best for my taste (tighter, crisper bass). I just combined these two elements and there it was - a fostex fe 164 crossed at 150Hz and LT12 from eminence. Not bad, but if you want clarity, speed, no cone movement you go for front horns-lecleach is just as good as any. But you need at least 20m2 of a room... This was my last system- I will always remember the sound of metallica´s Until it sleeps some two years ago when I was auditioning Hypex modules. The sound form my old MF A1 and sony STR6046 was OK but ultra clean from hypex and horns. The sound was so well controlled and distortionless that you couldn´t hear annoying fullrange squak from 206E (they were than a bit modified in front horns much better sounding than FE164). Nada. We crancked the sound so high that we had to leave room for awhile (it was fun...) and then run to the amp turning it down a bit. Front horn loading makes wonders to FRs. Its sound gives a mature tone and relaxed sound to FE206E. I made mine from plastic and am selling them as a design piece in a local store.
Now I listen to eminence with tweeter placed in center and crossed at 6000 Hz (1st order) in CB. The box is too small but sound is ok. It is smaller than with horns and much less dynamic. But big bass is what you really need, especially if you like to listen to metal with a lot of reverberation and flowing sounds (this will destroy you, russian circles, perfect circle, etc...).
I never heard them but think that my "home time aligned" eminences are something as a coax, and that is something you could try to hear also (Hemp, PA (the pa12cxa)...). Silver Iris, Visatone B200+bass augment speaker or Audio Nirvana 12 with tweeter (these could be a killer, should chack for Pass article, he will examine these speakers soon or he had them already). I would recomend you to stick with wideband approach as it is best solution for most music.
!!
T
I just built these with the FE87E and think your st70 would love them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1697708#post1697708
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108751
Or wait for the passive network for these
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Project08.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131590
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1700008#post1700008
They do hard rock justice where the FR stuff I built over the last year didn't.
BR
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1697708#post1697708
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108751
Or wait for the passive network for these
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Project08.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131590
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1700008#post1700008
They do hard rock justice where the FR stuff I built over the last year didn't.
BR
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