I also listen to bass heavy music occasionally and have been looking for a solution. I have a set of AN8s in the smaller tower from the site. They do well on about 35% of the music I listen to in their current state but the rest of it is missing something. I've been eyeing the 1/2 Chang to put them in and after reading this thread I wonder if I should go ahead with that plan and add a small sub in the angled portion of each box. This sub had caught my eye http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-831. I was thinking of running this with the cross over set at about 800 Hz. Any opinions going this way?
I listen to a lot of hard core metal but I listen to it almost exclusively in the car. Got a nice component system with a couple thousand watts of power.
At home I have a fr based system with a sub x'd over at 200hz and running unfettered up top but I do blend in a pair of tweeters at 16k.
On that system I listen to jazz, blues, big band and what we used to call acid rock and I rarely ever listen to rock much less metal.
To be blunt metal needs a system that kick your f'ing teeth in. That is something I have very rarely ever heard in any ones home, very few bars systems and occasionally not even at a concert. Give me $2500 though and I can build that in a car.
I have no doubt that I could built a FR based system that could play metal but I have neither the time or the money to explore that.
If you decided down that path I'd be interested in a thread on your experiences.
At home I have a fr based system with a sub x'd over at 200hz and running unfettered up top but I do blend in a pair of tweeters at 16k.
On that system I listen to jazz, blues, big band and what we used to call acid rock and I rarely ever listen to rock much less metal.
To be blunt metal needs a system that kick your f'ing teeth in. That is something I have very rarely ever heard in any ones home, very few bars systems and occasionally not even at a concert. Give me $2500 though and I can build that in a car.
I have no doubt that I could built a FR based system that could play metal but I have neither the time or the money to explore that.
If you decided down that path I'd be interested in a thread on your experiences.
If the OP had stated the size of the room he's trying to fill and how loud he's trying to get, that would be more useful to the thread.
With that said, I am listening to Seal's latest CD "System" at easily sustained levels of 91dB with brief peaks around 93-94dB. Granted, my room is only 11' x 12' with an 8' ceiling and I'm seated just over 8' in front of them. However, this is with a bone-stock original SI T-amp, small stock Fostex FE103E's in 0.50cf cardboard enclosures tuned to 67Hz (actually just recently retuned to 90Hz), but stuffed enough to be aperiodic loaded, and with BSC inserted at -3dB.
BTW, these are measurements taken with my 8" Vifa woofers turned off, so they are not adding to the overall SPL readings.
Earlier today, I was listening to Metalica "Load", VNV Nation and several others, and not once have I heard any straining coming from the drivers or the amp.
Yes, I know the stock SI T-amp starts rolling off bass, but that's down around 40-50Hz, not at 100Hz like some say.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as food for thought.
With that said, I am listening to Seal's latest CD "System" at easily sustained levels of 91dB with brief peaks around 93-94dB. Granted, my room is only 11' x 12' with an 8' ceiling and I'm seated just over 8' in front of them. However, this is with a bone-stock original SI T-amp, small stock Fostex FE103E's in 0.50cf cardboard enclosures tuned to 67Hz (actually just recently retuned to 90Hz), but stuffed enough to be aperiodic loaded, and with BSC inserted at -3dB.
BTW, these are measurements taken with my 8" Vifa woofers turned off, so they are not adding to the overall SPL readings.
Earlier today, I was listening to Metalica "Load", VNV Nation and several others, and not once have I heard any straining coming from the drivers or the amp.
Yes, I know the stock SI T-amp starts rolling off bass, but that's down around 40-50Hz, not at 100Hz like some say.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as food for thought.
I was running FE207E (8 inch fullrangers) in a large room. (100m3)
I never really enjoyed metallica's S&M much, I'd play a track here and there and thats it.
The day before yesterday I listened to some similar sized drivers in with much more excursion. I listened to both cds in one sitting.
Even with pushing it hard and getting doppler distortion issues it was much more enjoyable to listen to.
You need to move some air to do metal, Fullrangers don't move lots of air. It does indeed have to kick your teeth in.
Perhaps look at some of the smaller ones around 4 inches to use as a mid-high and cross over as they suggested here at several hundred Hertz to some serious woofers.
For less demanding music they can be run full range, giving you some versatility.
I never really enjoyed metallica's S&M much, I'd play a track here and there and thats it.
The day before yesterday I listened to some similar sized drivers in with much more excursion. I listened to both cds in one sitting.
Even with pushing it hard and getting doppler distortion issues it was much more enjoyable to listen to.
You need to move some air to do metal, Fullrangers don't move lots of air. It does indeed have to kick your teeth in.
Perhaps look at some of the smaller ones around 4 inches to use as a mid-high and cross over as they suggested here at several hundred Hertz to some serious woofers.
For less demanding music they can be run full range, giving you some versatility.
OzMikeH said:
Like I said, none of this matters until we know exactly what the OP is wanting to do. So far, he hasn't told us anything more than the fact that he wants to play HM on FR drivers. He has yet to tell us how loud and in what size room.
And just to clear up something on my last post... With the Vifa woofers up and running (crossed over at 100Hz), there's plenty of air moving to kick in your teeth, and the little FE103E's keep up just fine. Again, this is in my small 11' x 12' room.
Also, keep in mind that Ed's HornShoppe "The Horn" is reported at playing in excess of sustained 100dB receiving a full frequency signal, not crossed over. And that's with a little, stock Fostex FE126E 4.5" driver to boot! Dave's Planet10 FrugalHorn should be able to do the same as well as probably Ron's Austin A126 with the same FE126E driver.
So saying that FR drivers can't get loud without distortion, etc, etc, etc is utter nonsense. Sure, they may not provide the impact of a larger driver with more Xmax, but they can still get plenty loud enough in the proper enclosure. In that case, just add a couple of bass augmentation drivers or a sub or two to the mix.
Well, even a backloaded with 8" is really at its best in large rooms
It will also play quite loud...just not fore longer party events
But loud seems very relative
Sometimes I think its loud even if it really isnt
And when I occationally cranks up the volume, it seems like it never gets loud enough, even when the ears are hurting from distortion
Just fore the record, I dont use FR drivers any more, so you will have to bare over with me
It will also play quite loud...just not fore longer party events
But loud seems very relative
Sometimes I think its loud even if it really isnt
And when I occationally cranks up the volume, it seems like it never gets loud enough, even when the ears are hurting from distortion
Just fore the record, I dont use FR drivers any more, so you will have to bare over with me
I'm going to have to agree with binarywhisper in that metal is best listened to in the car. $2,500 goes a long way in car audio (check out www.diymobileaudio.com for some help) and you can crank the volume much higher than any home system without worrying about neighbors complaining. Of course the car environment is infinitely worse than any room, unless you live in an 8x8 concrete prison cell, which means you'll have to invest in a head unit or processor with a 1/3 octave EQ and the necessary tools (Mic, RTA, etc) to tune the system properly. Nothing is going to sound great out of the box.
Back to the home and FR. I just finished building a set of Frugelhorns with planet10's eNabled FE126eN drivers. I don't have too many hours on them yet but I have listened to Pearl Jam - Ten, Tool - Lateralus, and Metallica - Master of Puppets. The albums are enjoyable but a different experience than in my car where I'm running a 300w open-baffle subwoofer, 100w 6.5" mids, and 50w 1" tweeters. I enjoy hearing the detail in soft passages but when the rock-out sections come in I miss the chest thumping bass. They don't miss a beat, but a subwoofer is an absolute necessity to get the bass drum kicks to cut through.
Back to the home and FR. I just finished building a set of Frugelhorns with planet10's eNabled FE126eN drivers. I don't have too many hours on them yet but I have listened to Pearl Jam - Ten, Tool - Lateralus, and Metallica - Master of Puppets. The albums are enjoyable but a different experience than in my car where I'm running a 300w open-baffle subwoofer, 100w 6.5" mids, and 50w 1" tweeters. I enjoy hearing the detail in soft passages but when the rock-out sections come in I miss the chest thumping bass. They don't miss a beat, but a subwoofer is an absolute necessity to get the bass drum kicks to cut through.
chuyler1 said:
I'm sure you're already well aware of the fact that there are several head units out (Alpine and Pioneer Premier come to mind) that have built-in DSP for 3-way active crossover duties, time alignment and auto PEQ calibration via an included wired mic.
They do a surprisingly good job I might add!
Yes I am aware. They do a "good" job but not a great job. Every time I have experimented with the auto-configuration features the sound always comes out processed. Besides, there is quite a bit you can do before touching the EQ...gain settings, phase swapping, crossover points, crossover slopes, etc etc. All that has to be done before you let the auto-EQ do it's magic and it can be handy to have an RTA around while you do.
chuyler1 said:
I never said anything about them doing a "great" job.
What I was getting at was the fact they have built-in adjustable active crossovers and time alignment ability, not the PEQ per say.
Personally, I do not use any EQ at all in my system. I fist get it sounding as good as possible with the gains and built-in crossovers in my JL /v2 amps. Once I've got them dialed in, then I tweak the head unit's crossover for possibly a steeper slope if needed, and then time alignment, further tweaked manually by ear.
It's amazing how proper gain and crossover adjustment can "act" like Eq'ing to the point that you do not need an actual EQ.
Anywho... We're getting a bit OT here, so....
Yeah, I've got a RF 3Sixty.2 hooked up to my stock Bose head unit (best thing Bose did was give the HU a 2v pre-out). I know a few places that the EQ is necessary but for the most part I play with the crossover options.
Anyway...in the car: metal is loud and has impact. On my frugelhorns, metal is dynamic and intimate but it doesn't really urge you to bang your head (a la Wayne's World).
Anyway...in the car: metal is loud and has impact. On my frugelhorns, metal is dynamic and intimate but it doesn't really urge you to bang your head (a la Wayne's World).
well FR should not be painted with one large brush. For instance the 125 mm CSS's I'm using have an xmax of 6 mm one way.
It seems metal is suffering the same fate and I guess thinking about it that should have been the first question we asked was what type of metal?
Old stuff that we grew up on like Sabbath, Led Zep, Deep Purple, Nazareth, Dio right on though to the Judas Priest years is not particularly heavy by today's standards. I could envision building a 2.1 FR or 2 way FR based system that would handle that.
Personally I grew up on that stuff but it is not what I thought of when the the OP posed his question.
Today I listen to Godsmack, The Exies, Pantera, Dope, Zombie and the like. It has a lot more power and a lot more rage then the old stuff did. Hell old metal is used in car commercials these days. Modern metal is supposed to make the adrenaline pump and that takes the kind of power that most can only afford to replicate in our vehicles. It takes a **** load of wattage and a massive bass foundation to generate that kind of energy.
So if it is new metal then its not even a FR question for me as I don't believe many people have the resources to build any type of home system that is going to do the job.
If its old metal then I suggest that a 2 way system running an FR as a very wide mid-range might do the job.
So what kinda metal?
It seems metal is suffering the same fate and I guess thinking about it that should have been the first question we asked was what type of metal?
Old stuff that we grew up on like Sabbath, Led Zep, Deep Purple, Nazareth, Dio right on though to the Judas Priest years is not particularly heavy by today's standards. I could envision building a 2.1 FR or 2 way FR based system that would handle that.
Personally I grew up on that stuff but it is not what I thought of when the the OP posed his question.
Today I listen to Godsmack, The Exies, Pantera, Dope, Zombie and the like. It has a lot more power and a lot more rage then the old stuff did. Hell old metal is used in car commercials these days. Modern metal is supposed to make the adrenaline pump and that takes the kind of power that most can only afford to replicate in our vehicles. It takes a **** load of wattage and a massive bass foundation to generate that kind of energy.
So if it is new metal then its not even a FR question for me as I don't believe many people have the resources to build any type of home system that is going to do the job.
If its old metal then I suggest that a 2 way system running an FR as a very wide mid-range might do the job.
So what kinda metal?
Agreed, the 125 handles PF including DSOTM and all the other original HM music I'm aware of 'good enough' in a small room or apartment app, etc.. The Jordan probably does too in a big enough pipe. Can't comment about current HM though since what little I've been exposed to just sounds like a particularly obnoxious noise to me.
GM
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I never progressed beyond Iron Maiden & the odd hit of Metallica WRT metal. Most of it's so heavily compressed the 'particularly obnoxious noise' bit is something of an understatement as far as I'm concerned, and even if it wasn't, I can't say I find much of the writing up to the drill. Whatever floats people's boat of course.
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