i am new to hi eff speaker and would like to build one.
My preferences and goals:
- musicality and naturalness
- base is not the most important but added value
- clear Warm sound
- Clear bass rather than lowest notes
- smooth treble
- small room size
- range of music mainly jazz, vocal
- would love to pair them with SE amp or low watt T amp
i have dca 4 or 5.5 in mind. with BIB, PAWO or Metronome enclosure?
do you have any recommendation? what type of enclosure do you use?
thanks in adv
Erwin
My preferences and goals:
- musicality and naturalness
- base is not the most important but added value
- clear Warm sound
- Clear bass rather than lowest notes
- smooth treble
- small room size
- range of music mainly jazz, vocal
- would love to pair them with SE amp or low watt T amp
i have dca 4 or 5.5 in mind. with BIB, PAWO or Metronome enclosure?
do you have any recommendation? what type of enclosure do you use?
thanks in adv
Erwin
AFAIK, there are no published T/S specs for the Merrill drivers, which has meant a dearth of DIY cabinets for them, short of the regular Zigmahornet which I believe the former has been dropped into in the past. A real pity, because they do look very nice little drivers indeed, assuming availability is good / improves.
How big a room, how big a cabinet, & how much can you spend?
How big a room, how big a cabinet, & how much can you spend?
hi Scottmoose
i found a source in malaysia that carry this drivers.
my room is around 12x20x10 feet, bloomy base with my 2 way speakers. unless i push it back to 2 feet from side wall and 3 feet from back wall. while sitting in the middle of the room.. not ideal setup as i just move in to the room and thats the best position i can find at the moment.
i am looking around the size as big as PAWO or zigmahornet. but its not an issue as i prefer performance to anything else.
money is not a problem considering i really want a highly revealing and natural sounding speakers. but ranging up to 1K is a good start or even more as no crossover is required (i assume). excluding the carpentry. as it wont cost me more than $200 using plywood to make it here locally in indonesia. thx in adv
i found a source in malaysia that carry this drivers.
my room is around 12x20x10 feet, bloomy base with my 2 way speakers. unless i push it back to 2 feet from side wall and 3 feet from back wall. while sitting in the middle of the room.. not ideal setup as i just move in to the room and thats the best position i can find at the moment.
i am looking around the size as big as PAWO or zigmahornet. but its not an issue as i prefer performance to anything else.
money is not a problem considering i really want a highly revealing and natural sounding speakers. but ranging up to 1K is a good start or even more as no crossover is required (i assume). excluding the carpentry. as it wont cost me more than $200 using plywood to make it here locally in indonesia. thx in adv
You're room is not so bad. I'd recommend Earl Geddes kit .It is in your $$ range and will be perfect for narrower and long rooms. I have Ziggies with Merril drivers and they are OK for bedroom TV duty. All fostex ferrite drivers I heard were tonaly dead and in general uninspiring. Maybe their alnico models are good. Look for vintage Tannoy drivers also for more $ Audio Note speakers (used ) are good. SEas exotic is said to be great ,but you'd need more power than 4W to drive it and it cost a bit.
the obvious...
planet10's modified (as in EnABLed ) FE127s are a great place to start.
The Merrills are very inexpensive, but without many real comparisons out there, a little tough to recommend, considering the distance (and the expense) that they would travel to get to you. If there is a dealer in Malaysia for the drivers then no problems, else stick with "known quantities", particularly if they must be shipped from Europe or North America.
I've been listening to a chrisb (a significant part of the planet10-hifi team) built pair of Milevas with the EnaBLed FE127 drivers in them. These things pretty incredible, and are esthetically very pleasing. are very enjoyable to listen to with a small Nakamichi Stasis receiver . Any good, low dampening factor amp is where to start with amplifiers (be it tube, T-amp, etc). What amp are you planning on running with your new speakers?
stew
planet10's modified (as in EnABLed ) FE127s are a great place to start.
The Merrills are very inexpensive, but without many real comparisons out there, a little tough to recommend, considering the distance (and the expense) that they would travel to get to you. If there is a dealer in Malaysia for the drivers then no problems, else stick with "known quantities", particularly if they must be shipped from Europe or North America.
I've been listening to a chrisb (a significant part of the planet10-hifi team) built pair of Milevas with the EnaBLed FE127 drivers in them. These things pretty incredible, and are esthetically very pleasing. are very enjoyable to listen to with a small Nakamichi Stasis receiver . Any good, low dampening factor amp is where to start with amplifiers (be it tube, T-amp, etc). What amp are you planning on running with your new speakers?
stew
Re: the obvious...
godzilla, do you have BIB plan? i read alot about it but cant seems to find the enclosure plan.
so in your opinion, the Geddes Kit is better than the merrill?
Hi Stew
Enabled FE127 has been discussed alot here in the forum. will check it out. thx
any other recommendation that compare the suggested product above? thanks
erwin
Happy New year
godzilla, do you have BIB plan? i read alot about it but cant seems to find the enclosure plan.
I have a look at Earl Geddes kit. seems has good review. will be contacting him to quotes on the shipping. thx for the input.limono said:
so in your opinion, the Geddes Kit is better than the merrill?
Nanook said:
Hi Stew
Enabled FE127 has been discussed alot here in the forum. will check it out. thx
any other recommendation that compare the suggested product above? thanks
erwin
Re: Re: the obvious...
It depends on the driver. Most people use one of the very simple calculators to size their own box for their own units. As there are unfortunately no parameters available for the Merrill drivers however, you'd have to simply take a wild guess and hope for the best.
It's utterly different in just about every concevable area, so comparisons are all but meaningless. Leaving aside their merits / demerits, given that this is the forum for FR drivers, I'm surprised that they even appeared on the radar of anyone here, let alone were suggested to someone mooting over an FR driver based system. 'Better' is a dangerous term anyway, because it's entirely subjective -as noted, 'different' is the phrase. As the Merrill units are quite rare though, and very few DIYers have got their hands on them, their potential remains an unknown.
FWIW, I don't know what limono has been listening to, but most Fostex units are anything but tonally dead. I've heard almost all of them in a variety of systems.
milen007 said:
It depends on the driver. Most people use one of the very simple calculators to size their own box for their own units. As there are unfortunately no parameters available for the Merrill drivers however, you'd have to simply take a wild guess and hope for the best.
It's utterly different in just about every concevable area, so comparisons are all but meaningless. Leaving aside their merits / demerits, given that this is the forum for FR drivers, I'm surprised that they even appeared on the radar of anyone here, let alone were suggested to someone mooting over an FR driver based system. 'Better' is a dangerous term anyway, because it's entirely subjective -as noted, 'different' is the phrase. As the Merrill units are quite rare though, and very few DIYers have got their hands on them, their potential remains an unknown.
FWIW, I don't know what limono has been listening to, but most Fostex units are anything but tonally dead. I've heard almost all of them in a variety of systems.
Hi Erwin,
“my room is around 12x20x10 feet, bloomy base with my 2 way speakers.”
It may be a result of room acoustics. With a single driver speakers you will get less bass so it will be less bloomy, but my BLH didn’t sound right until I put enough bass traps in the room.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/1bcae422397887
Marek
“my room is around 12x20x10 feet, bloomy base with my 2 way speakers.”
It may be a result of room acoustics. With a single driver speakers you will get less bass so it will be less bloomy, but my BLH didn’t sound right until I put enough bass traps in the room.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/1bcae422397887
Marek
Re: Re: Re: the obvious...
if this is the case, i think BIB will be out then. the seller suggest sigmahornet for dca 4 and pawo for dca 5.5 tho. but i just want to learn my option if i go with any of them.
actually i am after a high efficient full range. which i think dca goes into that category. correct me if im wrong as i am leaning the terminology
yes. that certainly is room problem. i have no such issue on my old room. its classified as an untreated room by the way. just a carpet, some sofa and some furniture.
thats why i am after a single driver that has possibly smaller amount of bass. (my guess from reading several review on small single driver)
anyway, is single driver is also a full range driver?
ps: nice driver you got there. sorry for my ignorant. is that commercial speaker or diy? what that setup call? nice setup
thx
hi scottmooseScottmoose said:
if this is the case, i think BIB will be out then. the seller suggest sigmahornet for dca 4 and pawo for dca 5.5 tho. but i just want to learn my option if i go with any of them.
actually i am after a high efficient full range. which i think dca goes into that category. correct me if im wrong as i am leaning the terminology
Hi Marekmarekst said:
yes. that certainly is room problem. i have no such issue on my old room. its classified as an untreated room by the way. just a carpet, some sofa and some furniture.
thats why i am after a single driver that has possibly smaller amount of bass. (my guess from reading several review on small single driver)
anyway, is single driver is also a full range driver?
ps: nice driver you got there. sorry for my ignorant. is that commercial speaker or diy? what that setup call? nice setup
thx
Re: Re: Re: the obvious...
Oh ,sorry to trespas .I need to make amends
Fostex are nice drivers for money and ENABL probably takes them to another level. For some reasons I never liked any speaker with FR fostex driver so maybe I"m immune to their qualities.I do not pretend to have "golden ears " nor to be excesively picky just present " one more fool opinion" how I'd spend that money. I'm not sure if I should always put IMHO or what . I do have Enabled Lowther DX4 (for sale I know what process does. I compared it to plain old JBL LE8 (first version) and bye, bye Lowther.
Appeal of Zigmas and Merril driver is very low cost and decent performance overall, with no bass (but way better than RS FE103 -1197) and world class imaging .How far one should go describing qualities of FR operating 4" driver ?Maybe I shouldn't be so offensive in my post. Driver cost what $50 ? and one can knock cheap cab in one afternoon. I tend to forget that its a DIY forum and people in general enjoy just a process of making stuff which counts probably as much as results of the efforts. Have a best New Year and good luck with your projects
Scottmoose said:
Oh ,sorry to trespas .I need to make amends
Fostex are nice drivers for money and ENABL probably takes them to another level. For some reasons I never liked any speaker with FR fostex driver so maybe I"m immune to their qualities.I do not pretend to have "golden ears " nor to be excesively picky just present " one more fool opinion" how I'd spend that money. I'm not sure if I should always put IMHO or what . I do have Enabled Lowther DX4 (for sale I know what process does. I compared it to plain old JBL LE8 (first version) and bye, bye Lowther.Appeal of Zigmas and Merril driver is very low cost and decent performance overall, with no bass (but way better than RS FE103 -1197) and world class imaging .How far one should go describing qualities of FR operating 4" driver ?Maybe I shouldn't be so offensive in my post. Driver cost what $50 ? and one can knock cheap cab in one afternoon. I tend to forget that its a DIY forum and people in general enjoy just a process of making stuff which counts probably as much as results of the efforts. Have a best New Year and good luck with your projects
Er, no amends required, given that you haven't done anything to require any AFAIK. FWIW, you probably haven't heard many decent implementations of the Fostex. YMMV as ever of course. As it happens, I agree about the Lowthers -personally, I'm not a fan of them, and the more I hear them, the more I tend to dislike them. The old LE8 was a very nice unit indeed. Pity it's no more.
With respect, I don't agree with your last statement though. Most people here are building speakers that for their requirements flatten most commercial products in performance; if they enjoy the building, that's an added bonus. And remember, $50 drivers are roughly what you'd find in 95% of commercial speakers (albeit of different kinds) retailing in the $1,000 class.
Unless you can find somebody who either already has, or will, measure the drivers for you, then unfortunately yes, it will rule out a dedicated DIY design for them. A pity, because chances are, people here could probably design something with superior performance to the stock Zigma / PAWO boxes. Rumor has it they're nice drivers, but only made sporadically in very limited quantities, and very difficult to get hold of.
Not massively. There isn't much to go on, but they appear to be roughly similar to equivalent units; ~89 - 91db. So they're quite efficient, but certainly not off the chart. If high efficiency is your goal, you'll need to go to larger 8in drivers like Fostex's FE206/7E, the FE208ESigma & (not as well known, but a nice unit) the FF225K, which are up around the 96db 1m /1w level. The latter two are wide-band units, rather than full-range & need a supertweeter, but are worth looking at.
FWIW, you probably haven't heard many decent implementations of the Fostex. YMMV as ever of course. As it happens, I agree about the Lowthers -personally, I'm not a fan of them, and the more I hear them, the more I tend to dislike them. The old LE8 was a very nice unit indeed. Pity it's no more. With respect, I don't agree with your last statement though. Most people here are building speakers that for their requirements flatten most commercial products in performance; if they enjoy the building, that's an added bonus. And remember, $50 drivers are roughly what you'd find in 95% of commercial speakers (albeit of different kinds) retailing in the $1,000 class.
Unless you can find somebody who either already has, or will, measure the drivers for you, then unfortunately yes, it will rule out a dedicated DIY design for them. A pity, because chances are, people here could probably design something with superior performance to the stock Zigma / PAWO boxes. Rumor has it they're nice drivers, but only made sporadically in very limited quantities, and very difficult to get hold of.
Not massively. There isn't much to go on, but they appear to be roughly similar to equivalent units; ~89 - 91db. So they're quite efficient, but certainly not off the chart. If high efficiency is your goal, you'll need to go to larger 8in drivers like Fostex's FE206/7E, the FE208ESigma & (not as well known, but a nice unit) the FF225K, which are up around the 96db 1m /1w level. The latter two are wide-band units, rather than full-range & need a supertweeter, but are worth looking at.
“is single driver is also a full range driver?”
In my case single Lowther is used unrestricted and delivers almost full range.
“ps: nice driver you got there. sorry for my ignorant. is that commercial speaker or diy? what that setup call? nice setup”
It is DIY, totally home made with handyman tools. I despise the commercialism on DIY forum. I only made one pair and broke the mold. I call the “setup”: back loaded, round, metal powder composite horn. It is a rather extreme approach. I do not want to dilute your thread with details, but if you ask I will gladly answer all questions.
Thanks for the complement.
Marek
In my case single Lowther is used unrestricted and delivers almost full range.
“ps: nice driver you got there. sorry for my ignorant. is that commercial speaker or diy? what that setup call? nice setup”
It is DIY, totally home made with handyman tools. I despise the commercialism on DIY forum. I only made one pair and broke the mold. I call the “setup”: back loaded, round, metal powder composite horn. It is a rather extreme approach. I do not want to dilute your thread with details, but if you ask I will gladly answer all questions.
Thanks for the complement.
Marek
Scottmoose said:
I have a pair of DCA4 & DCA 5.5. I understand T/S are of sufficient variability it is difficualt to choose a spec that would be publishable.
From the measures i did, these will be best in a box that likes highish Q.
I've not been able to listen to then other than hen they were on the break-in bench.
The drivers have quite nice cones, baskets are on the flimsy side (the DCA4 were a client donation after 1 arrived with a bent basket)
dave
hi marekmarekst said:
yes its abit extreme for me at this stage. will certainly contact you once i am considering building one. thx for the offer
planet10 said:
hi Dave
would you kindly share you opinion on them?
i found some parameter on this driver on other forum
quoting from url below:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/SingleDriverSpeakers/messages/2324.html
FS- 55
QTS- .55
VAS- 11 L
Impedance- 5 ohms
SPL- 88
do the parameter sound right?
found the calculator for bib in zillaspeaker. thx Godzilla. and the plan is simple and do-able
thx
DCA 5.5 (sample size = 2 units) +/- 3%
Fs Re Qms Qes Qts Vas Mms Sd dB Cms BL
66.75 4.50 9.53 0.89 0.81 8.02 7.52 86.59 86.39 7.57E-07 4.00
DCA 4 (sample size = 4 units) +/- 10%
Fs Re Qms Qes Qts Vas Mms Sd dB Cms BL
89.23 6.83 4.60 1.24 0.98 3.56 3.74 54.11 85.16 8.59E-07 3.40
Note that neither could be considered high efficiency, the big one about the same efficiency as CSS FR125.
dave
Fs Re Qms Qes Qts Vas Mms Sd dB Cms BL
66.75 4.50 9.53 0.89 0.81 8.02 7.52 86.59 86.39 7.57E-07 4.00
DCA 4 (sample size = 4 units) +/- 10%
Fs Re Qms Qes Qts Vas Mms Sd dB Cms BL
89.23 6.83 4.60 1.24 0.98 3.56 3.74 54.11 85.16 8.59E-07 3.40
Note that neither could be considered high efficiency, the big one about the same efficiency as CSS FR125.
dave
a high efficiency of some merit..
milen007,
I know P10 has or had some FF drivers and I think he quite likes them (but could still benefit from EnaBLing)
As far as the Merrills go, "fixing"the basket can be done with not too much effort. Some small "U" channel aluminium riveted or bonded to the basket to support it.
But we all may be barking up the wrong tree, you had suggested a budget of $1000 (I'm assuming USD) for the pair. $200 for cabs, so up to $800 a pair for drivers and any parts. I have to believe with a budget like that you could very well get some better drivers than have been suggested. Some good fullrange drivers in the Demetri box could be a suggestion as well--about 20% bigger than the Milevas or PAWO
stew
milen007,
Scottmoose said:
I know P10 has or had some FF drivers and I think he quite likes them (but could still benefit from EnaBLing)
As far as the Merrills go, "fixing"the basket can be done with not too much effort. Some small "U" channel aluminium riveted or bonded to the basket to support it.
But we all may be barking up the wrong tree, you had suggested a budget of $1000 (I'm assuming USD) for the pair. $200 for cabs, so up to $800 a pair for drivers and any parts. I have to believe with a budget like that you could very well get some better drivers than have been suggested. Some good fullrange drivers in the Demetri box could be a suggestion as well--about 20% bigger than the Milevas or PAWO
stew
Re: a high efficiency of some merit..
to add a couple of subjective listening based observations to the mix:
I've had the opportunity to hear several of the drivers /enclosures mentioned or alluded to
The Merrill 4" in Zigmahornets are great bang for the buck, and certainly do image like crazy, but absolutely need help to achieve anything close to "full-range" and anything above moderate listening levels.
The little Merrill drivers stamped frames are quite flimsy and could certainly benefit from careful reinforcement, but keep in mind the dimensional limitations.
The Fostex FF165K in Cain & Cain Abby (nearfield version) does not suffer from enough lack of top end for a lot of folks ( my own or Frank McCrea's ears included).
The smaller FF125K has even better upper range performance, but certainly needs special care in implementation. The FF85K is an amazing little driver - think of it as a very wide-band tweeter. (but of course as you smaller in size the sensitivity drops off)
As a current option similar to the venerated LE8T, the Fostex F200A could be considered - I've only heard this driver completely open air, where it certainly did not lack detail and resolution in the upper registers, - so I can only imagine what the overall balance would be in an appropriately designed enclosure or open baffle implementation.
Not that I can imagine ever affording even an entry level model, I won't refuse the opportunity to audition a Lowther based system, as frustrating as I've learned to expect the experience to be. Having heard a variety of them at several audio shows over the past 7yrs, I can definitely say that they've given me the worst (as in couldn't get out of the room fast enough), and intriguing (Rethm ) experiences at the shows. They are famously "love em or hate 'em" , and can certainly be hard to get right.
Nanook said:
to add a couple of subjective listening based observations to the mix:
I've had the opportunity to hear several of the drivers /enclosures mentioned or alluded to
The Merrill 4" in Zigmahornets are great bang for the buck, and certainly do image like crazy, but absolutely need help to achieve anything close to "full-range" and anything above moderate listening levels.
The little Merrill drivers stamped frames are quite flimsy and could certainly benefit from careful reinforcement, but keep in mind the dimensional limitations.
The Fostex FF165K in Cain & Cain Abby (nearfield version) does not suffer from enough lack of top end for a lot of folks ( my own or Frank McCrea's ears included).
The smaller FF125K has even better upper range performance, but certainly needs special care in implementation. The FF85K is an amazing little driver - think of it as a very wide-band tweeter. (but of course as you smaller in size the sensitivity drops off)
As a current option similar to the venerated LE8T, the Fostex F200A could be considered - I've only heard this driver completely open air, where it certainly did not lack detail and resolution in the upper registers, - so I can only imagine what the overall balance would be in an appropriately designed enclosure or open baffle implementation.
Not that I can imagine ever affording even an entry level model, I won't refuse the opportunity to audition a Lowther based system, as frustrating as I've learned to expect the experience to be. Having heard a variety of them at several audio shows over the past 7yrs, I can definitely say that they've given me the worst (as in couldn't get out of the room fast enough), and intriguing (Rethm ) experiences at the shows. They are famously "love em or hate 'em" , and can certainly be hard to get right.
Re: Re: a high efficiency of some merit..
Mssr. Bob Brines' technique perfectly nails it -- using PC-based digital EQ, starting with the inverse of the frequency response curve, then additional tweaks for baffle step and room bounce, whatever personal tweaks.
When heard at their best, they are amazing and have a unique, surreal 3D "palpability." It's not imaging, it's a different quality because you can hear it in mono. Someday, when I have a big room and a setup like Bob's, I will have Lowthers again.
Mssr. Bob Brines' technique perfectly nails it -- using PC-based digital EQ, starting with the inverse of the frequency response curve, then additional tweaks for baffle step and room bounce, whatever personal tweaks.
When heard at their best, they are amazing and have a unique, surreal 3D "palpability." It's not imaging, it's a different quality because you can hear it in mono. Someday, when I have a big room and a setup like Bob's, I will have Lowthers again.
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