Is there any chance to get real (like hip-hop, rock, etc.) bass from a fullrange driver in any cabinet? What is the best driver-enclosure combination for non-compromising bass response?
What about Lowther drivers? I have read they have excellent midrange response but no good bass response even with BLH designs. What about Fostex, Jordan, Audio Nirvana and other fullrange drivers?
What about Lowther drivers? I have read they have excellent midrange response but no good bass response even with BLH designs. What about Fostex, Jordan, Audio Nirvana and other fullrange drivers?
I get excellent bass in a medium sized room out of my Half-Chang cabinets. They house Pioneer B20s and Dayton super tweeters for the higher octaves...Don't play a ton of hip hop, but I get plenty of umph...
Additionally you can use Fostex 8 inch drivers in the same cabinet. If you have the room, the G Chang would work well too...
http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html
Additionally you can use Fostex 8 inch drivers in the same cabinet. If you have the room, the G Chang would work well too...
http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html
I have some FE207E, It goes more than loud enough for Led Zeppelin and ACDC. It struggles a bit with Metallica's S&M. With house music it doesn't kick you in the guts, but you can hear it's all there. Drum and Bass similar, you can hear it all but it doesnt rattle the windows.
Eskimo Joe rocks on the system.
it is a two way, a super tweeter from 10k and up.
Using the EQ in your media player you can jack up the bass below the cabinet's rolloff - to a point. (Thanks Bob) I've got about 10db of boost at 32 Hz and it sounds great.
Look for a driver that has a bit more excursion than most and high efficiency, (mine is only 1.5mm). Your'e going to need a huge cabinet too.
I haven't heard the BIB but if you have the room for it that might be what you're looking for.
I have FELT bass in the chest with 1.5 watts from AER MK1 drivers in Singular cabinets, correctly corner loaded with a touch of EQ.
Put 10 watts through a set of those and you're rocking. But there is a downside: the sweet spot is very small and they cost about 800 euro each.
You really need 8 inches or more. The problem is affordable ones don't do the treble very well.
Eskimo Joe rocks on the system.
it is a two way, a super tweeter from 10k and up.
Using the EQ in your media player you can jack up the bass below the cabinet's rolloff - to a point. (Thanks Bob) I've got about 10db of boost at 32 Hz and it sounds great.
Look for a driver that has a bit more excursion than most and high efficiency, (mine is only 1.5mm). Your'e going to need a huge cabinet too.
I haven't heard the BIB but if you have the room for it that might be what you're looking for.
I have FELT bass in the chest with 1.5 watts from AER MK1 drivers in Singular cabinets, correctly corner loaded with a touch of EQ.
Put 10 watts through a set of those and you're rocking. But there is a downside: the sweet spot is very small and they cost about 800 euro each.
You really need 8 inches or more. The problem is affordable ones don't do the treble very well.
I most humbly disagree, in fact, that stuff in a farmers field comes to mind. Anyone who was at the Dallas LSAF and heard my Lowther MLTL's and yes, my Fostex FE207E BR's play that pedal D (38 Hz) in the Bach D minor Toccata knows that a full-ranger can get into the 30's with ease.
The Fostex F200A in a TL will give the best bass. Solid to 30. The Lowther DX2, the Fostex FE206E and FE207E in MLTL's will all have F3 near 40 and F10 in the low 30's.
One caveat: The average listening level has to be below the threshold of ear damage. If you need 120dB at 20Hz, you are on the wrong forum.
Bob
The Fostex F200A in a TL will give the best bass. Solid to 30. The Lowther DX2, the Fostex FE206E and FE207E in MLTL's will all have F3 near 40 and F10 in the low 30's.
One caveat: The average listening level has to be below the threshold of ear damage. If you need 120dB at 20Hz, you are on the wrong forum.
Bob
Bob Brines said:
As I sit here hearing the auto's at the intersection 500f away blasting bass through my walls, I must say I very much agree and practice your statement Bob. I want to enjoy music till my days are over without hearing aids hanging on my ears, more should practice safe listening levels IMO.. Dave
DaveCan said:OzMike
Could you elaborate more on the AER drivers sound from top to bottom etc.. I'm most interested in them as a possible future purchase and like to gather all the info I can..
Dave
search for posts by me with the word AER in them. I've gushed about them enough. Have a look on the BD design forum too (you dont need to register to view). Bert used to sell them and there was quite a lot of useful discussion there.
I stand corrected. I think I need to build some of Bob's cabinets.
FR units can do decent bass. Blithering nonsense to suggest otherwise. I've just prototyped a pair of standmounts with 126s that get down to open E string double bass for heaven's sake.
In fairness, what their issue is is LF transient response on extremely dynamic cuts (big classical pieces, heavy / progressive rock like Floyd etc), especially at high SPLs, as Bob says. No FR unit can match a dedicated woofer in this respect, but in fairness, that's not what they're designed for. You don't take your Mini to the track if you know you're coming up against a '69 1/2, 440 Six-Barrel Plymouth Road Runner.
In fairness, what their issue is is LF transient response on extremely dynamic cuts (big classical pieces, heavy / progressive rock like Floyd etc), especially at high SPLs, as Bob says. No FR unit can match a dedicated woofer in this respect, but in fairness, that's not what they're designed for. You don't take your Mini to the track if you know you're coming up against a '69 1/2, 440 Six-Barrel Plymouth Road Runner.
Well, they can play it passably; especially the larger 8in units if horn loaded, or in a moderately sized BR that's tuned higher than normal. But if rock & hip hop etc are desired then adding a 15in bass unit would certainly be desireable. I'd much rather have an FR unit + a decently sized supporting woofer than the de-rigure 1in tweeter + 6 1/2in (or whatever) 2 way though.
Ironically, neither of the above types of music generally produce especially low frequencies (aside from progressive rock), so the'real bass' is actually a little erroneous. Most of the energy in both is actually in the 60 - 100Hz zone. As I suggested above, it's the potentially large dynamic swings in this region that are the main problem, rather than extension. The main issue is one of excursion, given that this is typically also where a lot of driver / cabinet combinations will hit their max point & therefore the potential for compression / distortion increases. Depends on what exactly you do with them in terms of load, how big the room is & how loud you listen really, and also what you're comparing to. For e.g. If I had a choice between a typical 2 way floorstander with a 5in midbass + 1in tweeter &, say, an MLTL with an FE207E, I'd go with the latter.
Ironically, neither of the above types of music generally produce especially low frequencies (aside from progressive rock), so the'real bass' is actually a little erroneous. Most of the energy in both is actually in the 60 - 100Hz zone. As I suggested above, it's the potentially large dynamic swings in this region that are the main problem, rather than extension. The main issue is one of excursion, given that this is typically also where a lot of driver / cabinet combinations will hit their max point & therefore the potential for compression / distortion increases. Depends on what exactly you do with them in terms of load, how big the room is & how loud you listen really, and also what you're comparing to. For e.g. If I had a choice between a typical 2 way floorstander with a 5in midbass + 1in tweeter &, say, an MLTL with an FE207E, I'd go with the latter.
Visaton BG20 - two of them in a 60 litre bassreflex tuned to 45 Hz and a few dB of boost below 100 Hz give quite life-like bass for jazz, rock, hip-hop and reagge, and they do wonders on psytrance kick. In smaller room they can go in mid-30's if positioned correctly (I think they like corners), and plenty of headroom (I've taken them to ~110 dB and no audible distortion).
Wouldn't do parties in big rooms without bassbins, though.
Harmonic distortion seems to be quite high around 300...2000 Hz when playing sinewaves - no concern with music at domestic levels, though. Subjectively they sound very sweet, like an oldskool fullranger from tube era.
A guy here in Estonia modifies these drivers and puts them in some kind of a spiral horn/bassreflex thing - haven't heard personally, but reportedly they're excellent.
Wouldn't do parties in big rooms without bassbins, though.
Harmonic distortion seems to be quite high around 300...2000 Hz when playing sinewaves - no concern with music at domestic levels, though. Subjectively they sound very sweet, like an oldskool fullranger from tube era.
A guy here in Estonia modifies these drivers and puts them in some kind of a spiral horn/bassreflex thing - haven't heard personally, but reportedly they're excellent.
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adason said:
Adding a woofer -- and relieving the full-range -- really has its greatest impact on the improvement of the midrange.
I really think that 4-5" is the sweet-spot for a FR, and they can do livable, but limited, bottom, but adcding the FonkenWoofTL to these really moved things up a notch (you can mostly ignore the tweeter (26k XO and a ribbon only a dB more efficient than the FE127eN)).
dave
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Scottmoose said:
No quite, Scott...
[OT]
Back in the '80s in Australia we had something called "Appendix J" racing. I think the requirement was the car had to be made 20+ years before. So they had Mini Cooper S's vs V8 Mustangs, older (locally made) Fords and Holdens/GMH, and at least one 390 Galaxy. No Road Runners, as they were less than 20YO at that stage...
The track I used to watch them at had 2 long straights, with about 3 corners between them at one end and 8 between them at the other (see this map if you're interested).
The format of the race ended up being that the V8 cars would leap off the line and the minies would swarm around them and pass them on all sides in the twisty sections (especially when the tires started getting warm).
The same thing ends up happenning in another form of racing when you get "stock" car racing here in Aus - the Lotus Exige's lose out on accelleration to the big V8's, but catch and pass them around the corners.
[/OT]
The same could be said for the FR horns that can produce reasonable (if not thumping) bass down to the 30's.
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