Best fullrange driver for bass

[freddi]

imo somethin like the cheaper (still pricey compared to B20( P-Audio 15" coaxials in the original Karlson would have pretty good punch - it U can't plug in an electric bass and play a clean 3 note chord - lol

http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=33876&f=000_1191.jpg

 

[felixx]

One driver for all:
PHY-KM30

http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/KM30_SAG_E.html

On open baffle or Rondo enclosure...amaizing.

 

[Scottmoose]

No quite, Scott...

[OT]
Back in the '80s in Australia we had something called "Appendix J" racing. I think the requirement was the car had to be made 20+ years before. So they had Mini Cooper S's vs V8 Mustangs, older (locally made) Fords and Holdens/GMH, and at least one 390 Galaxy. No Road Runners, as they were less than 20YO at that stage...

The track I used to watch them at had 2 long straights, with about 3 corners between them at one end and 8 between them at the other (see this map if you're interested).

The format of the race ended up being that the V8 cars would leap off the line and the minies would swarm around them and pass them on all sides in the twisty sections (especially when the tires started getting warm).

The same thing ends up happenning in another form of racing when you get "stock" car racing here in Aus - the Lotus Exige's lose out on accelleration to the big V8's, but catch and pass them around the corners.
[/OT]

OK, OT but fun. I should have clarified: when I said 'track' I was refering to a 1/4 mile drag strip. The aforementioned 69 1/2 RR & it's Dodge Superbee stablemate were low 13 second ET machines on contemorary rubber. With modern tyres & a little tweaking, I gather they're now breaking in the 11 second zone.

Anyway -LF from FR units = use multiple units, or some of the bigger 10in or even 12in drivers, although those latter usually require what many people would nowadays regard as unacceptably large enclosures. Audio Nirvana & Eminence have a couple. Multiple is possibly easier, though you'd have to deal with potential interactions if both are mounted on the same baffle. The Basszilla concept is a good 'un IMO, playing to the strengths of different drivers & loading ideas.

 

[Vix]

Adding a woofer -- and relieving the full-range -- really has its greatest impact on the improvement of the midrange.

I really think that 4-5" is the sweet-spot for a FR, and they can do livable, but limited, bottom, but adcding the FonkenWoofTL to these really moved things up a notch (you can mostly ignore the tweeter (26k XO and a ribbon only a dB more efficient than the FE127eN)).

dave

Hi Dave,

What is the crossover point/slope between a Fostex fullrange and the bass driver? I guess that the bass enclosure is sealed. By the way, it seems to me that if you pair one fullrange driver with a big woofer (12-15 in) the bass gets somehow "slower", and doesn't have quite that "quick attack" that a fullranger does. Or maybe my ears are deceiving me...

Vix

 

[adason]

"One driver for all: PHY-KM30"

It's not one driver, it's two.......

 

[felixx]

It's not one driver, it's two.......

 

[GM]

By the way, it seems to me that if you pair one fullrange driver with a big woofer (12-15 in) the bass gets somehow "slower", and doesn't have quite that "quick attack" that a fullranger does. Or maybe my ears are deceiving me...

We are visually oriented creatures and equate 'big' = 'slow', so we're predisposed to 'hear' what we 'see'.

That said, with passive XOs you can't XO very low without considerable cost in both $$$ and insertion losses, so typical woofer/'sub' drivers are XO'd well beyond their 'sweet' BW at too shallow a roll off slope, making for a poor high frequency match to the much 'faster' smaller driver. For these systems, a very wide BW woofer with a low inductance (Le) as typically used in a prosound app is required ($$$).

With today's relatively inexpensive, superior performing digital adjustable XOs and EQs though, we have a truly 'HIFI' tuning flexibility that the pioneers of audio probably couldn't even imagine, so up to a point we can now 'have our cake and eat it too' WRT mixing/matching woofer-'FR' driver combos.

GM

 

[Vix]

Thanks GM,

I had that impression because I am running Visatons B200 + Eminence Beta 15's on the 48x20 inch Open Baffle. After a lot of experimentation with crossover points/ slopes, what sounds good at the moment is Visaton B200 run fullrange, and Eminence Beta 15 actively crossed over at around 90 Hz/ 12db.

I don't want to shift to Off topic, but it is not easy to blend the fullrange speaker with the big bass driver. I don't know whether it is just on the open baffles, or do also other fullrange speakers ( sealed, TL's or horns) face issues with properly blending with a helper woofer/ subwoofer.

Regards,

Vix

p.s. Dave, FonkenWoofTL means that a woofer is in a Transmission Line?

 

[Vix]

Upss...

Dave, I just read an answer on my question regarding crossover point/slope, in another thread

 

[badman]

define 'fullrange'

'cause really, there's no such thing. No transducer does good treble AND good bass.

So, if you want good bass from a 'fullranger', reduce 'fullranger' to 'wideranger' and you've got no problem. Plenty of viable options if you're okay with using a supertweeter (or a sub and a smaller 'fullranger)

Of course, the whole point of a crossover is to get the drivers to act as a singular source. I think that to some extent, the strength of 'fullrangers' is the flexibility it gives you to implement much less complex crossovers with more ideal behavior. You can get a 12" wideband transducer and a 3" and cross them over in the midrange while maintaining near point source behavior (for the relevant frequencies) and phase linearity.

I'm getting superb results with the above arrangement and first order series XO.

 

[DaveCan]

I've never heard it yet, but from all the research I've done I believe the AER Mrk1 would be one of the best bets for fullrange at a given price point.. It goes all the way to 21000hz -2.5db and reaches down low, very detailed, no shout or annoying peaks plus it's got sens coming out it's ying yang at 102.5db 1w 1m... $2500 a pair All a person would need to do if wanted is add a good detailed low section to reach the deep down depths , no tweeters needed.. Dave

 

[Scottmoose]

They're a good unit. However, the FR is not devoid of peaking (which cause the shouting you're refering to), although it's better than some & it does appear to motor up to 20KHz. Detail is very good, but the better Lowther's have a slight edge, at the price of a little less refinement. Regarding sesitivity, 96 - 98db would be nearer the mark than 102.5. Don't get me wrong, I like & admire them; they'd flatten most Fostex units & can rival some of the Lowther range, but they're not quite as good as all that.

 

[NJE807]

I am looking at adding a helper woofer to my Goodmans axiom 201's on an open baffle, and bought some second hand Eminence Delta Pro 12a's at Leatherhead audiojumble for the right price. My problem is, I would like to stick to a first order passive XO, instead of going the active EQ or bi amping route. I already have a pair of Fostex FT17H's helping out the top end with just some caps protecting them, and the sound is already nice. But a bit more bottom end wouldn't good amiss, the plan is to cut them at around 800Hz. The fullrangers sound OK by themselves, so I am expecting great things with help at either end of the scale.

 

[tinitus]

800hz is on the high side

 

[AdamThorne]

If the question is bass, I'd love a chance to hear what this beast:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88104

Eminence Beta-12LTA in a gargantuan BIB, Super-tweeter required...

--------------------------------

I'd like to see more designs (or better publicity for them) like that fonkenwoof picture. I recall reading somewhere that the equal-energy frequency for xover is around 300hz. It seems to make much more sense then to base your 2-way around a FR/WR+woofer than a mid-bass + tweeter.

But then you're not talking about a FR setup. The FR guys who are most prepped to develop such a system seem less interested in doing so, and the multi-way guys are still working in the midbass + tweet paradigm.

Maybe people are moving forward in this area and I just don't know about it...

 

[chrisb]

Time for Phil & Rich to pipe in about their Feastrex in the Maiko enclosure?


"woofers, we don't need no fonken woofers"

There's BASS! and then there's bass

 

[DaveCan]

Time for Phil & Rich to pipe in about their Feastrex in the Maiko enclosure?


"woofers, we don't need no fonken woofers"

There's BASS! and then there's bass

The Feastrex drivers would be excellent to be able to have in the home, but sadly I think the majority of the people here at diy will never be able to own them, myself included.. It would be cool if Feastrex could take on the world by offering a driver somewhere in the Fostex, Lowther price range etc..

For me it will be between AER and Lowther as a step above Fostex, and most likely the AER. The amount for the AER would be the most I'd ever want to spend (and it'll take some serious saving up),providing I don't win the lottery or have a rich Uncle that I never knew about that left me some extra dough etc..
Dave

 

[NJE807]

Cheers tinitus, see what you mean, it looks like Vix is actively crossing his 15" Beta's at 90Hz 2nd order, and his OB's sound similiar to what I have in mind. I have the Axiom/Fostex combo in 18" wide 30" high baffles at the moment, the narrow width not giving much bass extension. I plan to cut some new boards 36" high and mount the woofers as low as possible to get some floor reflection as well. They will not be bass monsters as the Delta's I have are only rated down to 50Hz, and they also seems to have a wide bandwidth for bass drivers, hence going for the cheaper, passive, higher cutting point, I really would like to just use an inductor, and, if needed some attenuation. All of the specs I can find for the Axioms give differing SPL ratings, and I don't have any way of measuring them, so I guess I have try it and see.

Yes OK I know, those gentlemen at DBX or Behringer could solve all my problems, but I am becoming more cantankerous in my old age!

Many thank, Neil

 

[felixx]

Dave...before you spending money on AER or Lowther ....you MUST consider Supravox or Fertin.
In my opinion KM30 (PHY) will be the best and probabily one of the most impressive sound I ever heard.
I don't know about the Feastrex but the low impact with KM30 is amaizing....for a single driver.Comparing with any little Feastrex......

Also Fertin and Supravox have a wide range of drivers (ferrite,alnico and fieldcoil) and the specs look good indeed.I own the 215RTF Bicone from Supravox and the details and speed is superb.
The major Xmax. is superiour to any AER or Lowther and the wide range type enclosures fitted for them will not be a problem.

 

[NJE807]

Just had a look at the price of the PHY drivers, and I thought Lowthers were expensive!!! I have a nice pair of acousta 115 cabs I bought sans drivers, and unless a pair of PM6A's fall out of the sky and land in my lap, that's they way they will stay until my ship comes in.