PaleRider said:Looks like not too many realizes what`s the clue about speakerwires; keep the R low like in not existing. Keep the signal-halves separated to avoid interference and avoid any stranded conductor.
Speakerwires as well as passive filters must be designed to handle all the amps power without hesitating
Real sound begins at 9awg, solid off course
Instead of discussing a lot of hypothetic theories, why not try out this. I know what I`m talkin about. Heavy solid, all way through
- only horn-guys are excluded
PaleRider said:Instead of discussing a lot of hypothetic theories, why not try out this. I know what I`m talkin about. Heavy solid, all way through
- only horn-guys are excluded
Why are "horn-guys" excluded?
I have tried it.
Cheap & easy, other than a pain to run such stiff wire.
Steve Deckert recommended it several years ago as one baseline.
Romex (8ga is cheap & available here), strip it & pull out the center strand (the bare copper one). Run a couple bare wires side by side on "cable elevators" (piece of 2 x 4 with couple grooves in top to seperate cables by inch or so).
Now you have 8 ga solid copper conductor, and air for insulator.
I'm still using it for subs.
Don't find it any better for higher frequencies.
Maybe different frequencies prefer different gauges?
and that's why some high$ cables are made of many different gauges, all insulated from each other...
As far as that goes :
Have you ever tried non-stranded silver wire ? I was a disbeliever until I tried it out. Now I think Silver is the only way to go.
I first tried 30AWG silver(still hooked up) , and I just bought some 20AWG silver. Gonna hook it up soon.
I can't imagine what 9AWG silver wires would cost. . . .
I can understand the idea of using large gauge conductor for maximum signal transfer. Unfortunately, 99.9% of power amps aren't going to be able to deliver the current that would require such monstrous cables.
For that matter , most power amps have output wires that are less than or equal to 16AWG , or worse yet , use PCB traces for the output.
Are you hooking this 9awg directly to the drivers terminals , or to a binding post ? If a binding post, then what connects the post to the speaker terminal, 9awg ? Even if it is 9awg , how much loss do you have through the binding post connections ?
Do you use 9awg copper, aluminum , silver, ? Is it high purity copper ?
We could go on and on and on. I'm sure that if you used a small conductor wire (24awg for example) to connect a high power/current amp to a low impedence speaker(2-4ohms) , you would gain benefits from switching to 9awg .
For most using FR drivers, I can't see how the 9AWG will benefit us. Low powered tube amps with low damping factor have NO NEED for such a direct connection to the driver. In fact , it is probably more detrimental than beneficial.
A large AWG conductor may transmit more power to the driver. It will also allow the drivers back emf to modulate the OPT to a greater degree .
Choose your poison.
Until I tried the 30awg silver, I scoffed at the idea. I had originally bought it for interconnect/low level wiring . I figured I would try it as speaker cable after reading so many posts about small conductor cables.
I was very pleasantly surprised. However, I am still stuck in "bigger is better" thinking, as I have bought some 20awg solid/silver to try.
Not sure if it is the smaller wire, or the silver conductor that I like, but it sure sounds good.
PaleRider, this is not meant as a personal attack or flame. I am just debating what you posted. I welcome your response.
........................Blake
Have you ever tried non-stranded silver wire ? I was a disbeliever until I tried it out. Now I think Silver is the only way to go.
I first tried 30AWG silver(still hooked up) , and I just bought some 20AWG silver. Gonna hook it up soon.
I can't imagine what 9AWG silver wires would cost. . . .
I can understand the idea of using large gauge conductor for maximum signal transfer. Unfortunately, 99.9% of power amps aren't going to be able to deliver the current that would require such monstrous cables.
For that matter , most power amps have output wires that are less than or equal to 16AWG , or worse yet , use PCB traces for the output.
Are you hooking this 9awg directly to the drivers terminals , or to a binding post ? If a binding post, then what connects the post to the speaker terminal, 9awg ? Even if it is 9awg , how much loss do you have through the binding post connections ?
Do you use 9awg copper, aluminum , silver, ? Is it high purity copper ?
We could go on and on and on. I'm sure that if you used a small conductor wire (24awg for example) to connect a high power/current amp to a low impedence speaker(2-4ohms) , you would gain benefits from switching to 9awg .
For most using FR drivers, I can't see how the 9AWG will benefit us. Low powered tube amps with low damping factor have NO NEED for such a direct connection to the driver. In fact , it is probably more detrimental than beneficial.
A large AWG conductor may transmit more power to the driver. It will also allow the drivers back emf to modulate the OPT to a greater degree .
Choose your poison.
Until I tried the 30awg silver, I scoffed at the idea. I had originally bought it for interconnect/low level wiring . I figured I would try it as speaker cable after reading so many posts about small conductor cables.
I was very pleasantly surprised. However, I am still stuck in "bigger is better" thinking, as I have bought some 20awg solid/silver to try.
Not sure if it is the smaller wire, or the silver conductor that I like, but it sure sounds good.
PaleRider, this is not meant as a personal attack or flame. I am just debating what you posted. I welcome your response.
........................Blake
continuing with what Nihilist said,
to try to keep the "test" about the cables, not the connectors,
Iwas not even using connectors...
It's somewhat a pain, but actually twisting OPT trans cable around speaker cable & soldering, & soldering cable directly to drivers as well.
Gets the connector part out of the equation, (added mass, resistance, whatever else).
r
to try to keep the "test" about the cables, not the connectors,
Iwas not even using connectors...
It's somewhat a pain, but actually twisting OPT trans cable around speaker cable & soldering, & soldering cable directly to drivers as well.
Gets the connector part out of the equation, (added mass, resistance, whatever else).
r
What about them?
WRT cost of 9ga teflon insulated silver, leaving aside the question of what special advantages you'd be hoping to gain with such extremes, you could slum it with 10ga, at $28 per foot (single conductor, so you'd need to multiply your chosen length by 4).
If you really wanted 9ga, then you could use 8 runs of 18ga per conductor, which would come out at about $27 per foot as you'd need a substantial amount of wire, which brings the price down. http://www.homegrownaudio.com/bulk_wire.htm You might find alternatives elsewhere of course.
I'm very happy with my outdoor rated cat5, not doing the single strand thing though..
I've wondered how your basic coax cablevision wire would work?.. Seems to have a really well shielded internal single copper wire that could be used, and it's quite cheap.. Just leave the cable intact, expose just the single copper in the center, and hook up to speaker and amp.. Dave
I've wondered how your basic coax cablevision wire would work?.. Seems to have a really well shielded internal single copper wire that could be used, and it's quite cheap.. Just leave the cable intact, expose just the single copper in the center, and hook up to speaker and amp.. Dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A friend is doing exactly the above with (reportedly) satisfying results.DaveCan said:I'm very happy with my outdoor rated cat5, not doing the single strand thing though..
I've wondered how your basic cablevision wire would work?.. Seems to have a really well shielded internal single copper wire that could be used, and it's quite cheap.. Just leave the cable intact, expose just the single copper in the center, and hook up to speaker and amp.. Dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They've retired some moderately expensive cables to his P10 treated 127's.
Don
Are you refering to Goertz ?
My brother has some. I think he has the 7 ga. ?
You need to use a Zobel network with them for some (most) amps , as the high capacitance can send the amps into protection mode.
Wired up to his Walsh Ohm F's they sound freakin amazing.
Supposedly the Goertz have super flat bandwidth to a billion gigahertz , have very high capacitance/low inductance , and offer minimal DCR.
The big claim to fame is minimal skin effect, as it is "all" skin .
Is it worth the money ? Dunno. I'll continue to use round wire until I hit the Lotto.
.........................Blake
My brother has some. I think he has the 7 ga. ?
You need to use a Zobel network with them for some (most) amps , as the high capacitance can send the amps into protection mode.
Wired up to his Walsh Ohm F's they sound freakin amazing.
Supposedly the Goertz have super flat bandwidth to a billion gigahertz , have very high capacitance/low inductance , and offer minimal DCR.
The big claim to fame is minimal skin effect, as it is "all" skin .
Is it worth the money ? Dunno. I'll continue to use round wire until I hit the Lotto.
.........................Blake
The coax thing is interesting. I use Canare GS-6 guitar cable for interconnects and like it.
I have also used it for speaker wire - 1 cable for plus, 1 for minus. Sheilds connected to ground. Seemed to work perfectly well. I did it to cut FM band RFI out of a noisy T-Amp.
Capacitance is super low, don't know about inductance. But T-Amps are very tolorent of both.....
Note: Speaker - terminal on the t-amp is not at ground.
I have also used it for speaker wire - 1 cable for plus, 1 for minus. Sheilds connected to ground. Seemed to work perfectly well. I did it to cut FM band RFI out of a noisy T-Amp.
Capacitance is super low, don't know about inductance. But T-Amps are very tolorent of both.....
Note: Speaker - terminal on the t-amp is not at ground.
fredex said:
Another urban legend based on the myth that sound only travels on the outside and a spin-off from the CFAC-coils. In a coil the flat foil gives less midrange distortion due to rpund wire, but the flat foil makes a poor powercircuit between amp & speakers mostly due to lack of area. All flat foils I`ve heard also sounds flat in the mid-range compared to a ordinary solid wire.
Nihilist said:
Yep, I`ve tried silver but prefer copper. And no, you`re wrong, most all amps from the tinyest tubes likes low resistance. Please try and you will have to move your speakers out a bit to retune
Too bad most designers don`t realice this, the world would have been so much better
Scottmoose said:
There`s another legend, and the reason why it`s all about thick solid. Multiple thin wires might add up to trhe same area, but they woun`t preform like a thick wire.
When I first started experimenting on this I ran 4x13awg for years, thinkin it was trotally overkill. At least that`s what the experts told me. But a friend got his hands on some 9awg and it was no problem to hear that one or two 9awg`s outplayed a heawyer gage made from several 13awg wires.
Going from 13awg solid to 9awg really makes a noticable gain in bassperformance even on smaller systems.
Last years I`ve been running 4x9awg (x2) for each woofer but I`m going to try out 2x7awg this winter.
Sounds like crazy? Try and hear!
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