Re: The Boy Cries 'Wolf, AGAIN.......................
Of course they do. As do most of Peter Belt's tweaks. They illustrate what has been known for many decades, that our perceptions are not always accurate reflections of the physical reality.
I have been attempting to understand. That's why I asked the questions that I asked. How else does one go about attempting to understand something? But so far no one's been willing or able to answer any of the questions I've asked.
It's as if you and Frank don't want anyone to understand it. You seem to just want to throw out ambiguous buzzwords like "crystal annealing" and "phonon behavior" and "asymmetrical crystal boundaries" like so much ad copy.
Then when you're questioned about it, you get your panities in a bunch and go off on this "try it yourself" mantra.
You and Frank are the ones claiming the wisdom here. But all I've seen so far are buzzwords. Or as my granpappy used to say, a lot of choppin' but no chips flyin'.
se
mrfeedback said:
Of course they do. As do most of Peter Belt's tweaks. They illustrate what has been known for many decades, that our perceptions are not always accurate reflections of the physical reality.
I have been attempting to understand. That's why I asked the questions that I asked. How else does one go about attempting to understand something? But so far no one's been willing or able to answer any of the questions I've asked.
It's as if you and Frank don't want anyone to understand it. You seem to just want to throw out ambiguous buzzwords like "crystal annealing" and "phonon behavior" and "asymmetrical crystal boundaries" like so much ad copy.
Then when you're questioned about it, you get your panities in a bunch and go off on this "try it yourself" mantra.
You and Frank are the ones claiming the wisdom here. But all I've seen so far are buzzwords. Or as my granpappy used to say, a lot of choppin' but no chips flyin'.
se
Mr SE, It's Your Medication Time.............
You need to learn to read and comprehend effectively.
The only thing that I claim is that I have heard directional effects demonstarted to me, and I have confirmed this by my own experiments.
All it takes is an open mind and open ears.
If you are to try reversing one interconnect and you do hear a change, then surely this would pique your interest, and you too would be seeking real answers.
With further investigation you may be able to find answers, and share them.
Steve, the problem that a whole bunch of forum members have with you is your characteristic negativity - try changing your polarity.
Eric.
Steve,
You need to learn to read and comprehend effectively.
The only thing that I claim is that I have heard directional effects demonstarted to me, and I have confirmed this by my own experiments.
All it takes is an open mind and open ears.
Ffank and I are not the only ones who hear directionality, and No, we don't get uptight about it, but as has been repeated over and over by you, you automatically seek objections without having ever having tried the subject in question in order to find out for yourself.
If you are to try reversing one interconnect and you do hear a change, then surely this would pique your interest, and you too would be seeking real answers.
With further investigation you may be able to find answers, and share them.
Steve, the problem that a whole bunch of forum members have with you is your characteristic negativity - try changing your polarity.
Eric.
Hi,
No, we don't.
And don't think for a minute we're teaming up on this, get paranoid about something else, not this.
We did some fieldwork and, rest assured, aren't the only ones
arriving at such conclusions.
I do believe cables/wires do run in and pretty much sound the same after a burn - in period though whichever way they're turned.
Keep in mind this is for single wire runs, cable geometry doesn't enter the equation here.
Cheers,
No, we don't.
And don't think for a minute we're teaming up on this, get paranoid about something else, not this.
We did some fieldwork and, rest assured, aren't the only ones
arriving at such conclusions.
I do believe cables/wires do run in and pretty much sound the same after a burn - in period though whichever way they're turned.
Keep in mind this is for single wire runs, cable geometry doesn't enter the equation here.
Cheers,
Re: Mr SE, It's Your Medication Time.............
I believe I did read and comprehend effectively.
You said you suspect phonon behavior. I asked what leads you to suspect phonon behavior. Did I miss your answer? I don't recall seeing it. You said I don't have any interest in understanding. Exactly what is it you think I should understand?
se
mrfeedback said:
I believe I did read and comprehend effectively.
You said you suspect phonon behavior. I asked what leads you to suspect phonon behavior. Did I miss your answer? I don't recall seeing it. You said I don't have any interest in understanding. Exactly what is it you think I should understand?
se
fdegrove said:
What are you talking about? You claimed flat out that it's due to crystal annealing. If that's not an outright claim of wisdom I don't know what is.
And Eric says he suspects it's due to phonon behavior so he's claiming he thinks he has at least SOME idea of what's going on.
Arriving at what conclusions? That it's due to crystal annealing and phonon behavior?
se
Ok lesse where I left off.
I'm not going to bother reading through the last page and a half of 'chest-beating', crap, cracksmoking and other BS, and get to some points.
Frank: enough of the BS already, wire DOES NOT have any metallurgical asymmetry from being drawn in a particular direction.
Although concievable that oxides say, in the metal (in the crystal boundaries), or on the surface of it, might produce a copper-oxide rectifier causing this asymmetry, the former is utterly inpossible in OFC (which someone mentioned is widespread these days); and the latter simply represents bad connections, that any remotely responsible person (yes, even you) would know to avoid. Besides that, the connection would have to be very loose to allow any such action at all without being shorted by a good connection formed by sliding abrasion as the connectors are tighted, and that would be pretty damn near floating in midair. And finally, the resistance of such a small connection would be extremely large relative to say, a speaker, so you'd certainly notice it. Plus variations in that contact due to vibration of the floor (and no, cones and pyrimids will NOT HELP, gahh!!!) will certainly tell you it's a bad connection.
What BS is next... oh yeah, someone mentioned photos in the freezer. I don't see how you can't think it an apt analogy, because if you've told us all there is about this directional-wire issue, then clearly there is as much case to the former as to the latter. FACE IT.
Mr. Feedback lately mentioned a dramatic change in sound due to simply changing wires, I propose to demonstrate this right now.
Since Frankenhouse has an inconvienient wiring scheme I will turn it off and use just Hept'AU7 for the test. I will reverse the polarity on both the amp and speaker sides, and reverse the ends of the wire itself. Wire is stranded, clear insulation zip cord.
Nothing yet... wonder if something else entirely will change things... try Frankenhouse instead...
Heh, Hept'AU7 sounds better on these speakers than the 6V6 PP. So much for 12AU7s being the pits, guys.
Tim
I'm not going to bother reading through the last page and a half of 'chest-beating', crap, cracksmoking and other BS, and get to some points.
Frank: enough of the BS already, wire DOES NOT have any metallurgical asymmetry from being drawn in a particular direction.
Although concievable that oxides say, in the metal (in the crystal boundaries), or on the surface of it, might produce a copper-oxide rectifier causing this asymmetry, the former is utterly inpossible in OFC (which someone mentioned is widespread these days); and the latter simply represents bad connections, that any remotely responsible person (yes, even you) would know to avoid. Besides that, the connection would have to be very loose to allow any such action at all without being shorted by a good connection formed by sliding abrasion as the connectors are tighted, and that would be pretty damn near floating in midair. And finally, the resistance of such a small connection would be extremely large relative to say, a speaker, so you'd certainly notice it. Plus variations in that contact due to vibration of the floor (and no, cones and pyrimids will NOT HELP, gahh!!!) will certainly tell you it's a bad connection.
What BS is next... oh yeah, someone mentioned photos in the freezer. I don't see how you can't think it an apt analogy, because if you've told us all there is about this directional-wire issue, then clearly there is as much case to the former as to the latter. FACE IT.
Mr. Feedback lately mentioned a dramatic change in sound due to simply changing wires, I propose to demonstrate this right now.
Since Frankenhouse has an inconvienient wiring scheme I will turn it off and use just Hept'AU7 for the test. I will reverse the polarity on both the amp and speaker sides, and reverse the ends of the wire itself. Wire is stranded, clear insulation zip cord.
Nothing yet... wonder if something else entirely will change things... try Frankenhouse instead...
Heh, Hept'AU7 sounds better on these speakers than the 6V6 PP. So much for 12AU7s being the pits, guys.
Tim
No, You Failed The Comprehension Test..........
As usual you read into things and construct things that have not been said like this
Look, if you want to communicate with me (or Frank), just ask (even repeat) straight intelligent, respectful and relevent questions like "What leads you to suspect phonon behavior?", and you may get more co-operation from us.
Mentioning photographs in the freezer just makes you appear as a moron.
In answer to your above question, as I understand it, electron flow is as slow as walking pace, and the same electron does not appear at the other end of a conductor at light speed.
As I understand it, energy transfer/flow is due to disturbance, and this disturbance is propogated down the conductor by the material of the conductor.
As I understand it this propagation is influenced by phonon behaviour in the conductor material, and that dielectric materials in proximity to this conductor also influence phonon behaviour.
Crystal boundaries could well influence this phonon behaviour, and cause spectral/phase differences in the propgation of the disturbance according to polarity.
Yes, I need to do more research into this subject, but for now I am content in the fact that I have heard directionality in cables and wires.
Perhaps you might like to follow up on this and enlighten us.
Eric.
Nope, not even close.
As usual you read into things and construct things that have not been said like this
and then add crap like above.
Look, if you want to communicate with me (or Frank), just ask (even repeat) straight intelligent, respectful and relevent questions like "What leads you to suspect phonon behavior?", and you may get more co-operation from us.
Mentioning photographs in the freezer just makes you appear as a moron.
In answer to your above question, as I understand it, electron flow is as slow as walking pace, and the same electron does not appear at the other end of a conductor at light speed.
As I understand it, energy transfer/flow is due to disturbance, and this disturbance is propogated down the conductor by the material of the conductor.
As I understand it this propagation is influenced by phonon behaviour in the conductor material, and that dielectric materials in proximity to this conductor also influence phonon behaviour.
Crystal boundaries could well influence this phonon behaviour, and cause spectral/phase differences in the propgation of the disturbance according to polarity.
Yes, I need to do more research into this subject, but for now I am content in the fact that I have heard directionality in cables and wires.
Perhaps you might like to follow up on this and enlighten us.
Eric.
Re: No, You Failed The Comprehension Test..........
Why does it make me appear as a moron? How exactly do you KNOW that the reason some perceive differences due to wire direction isn't the same reason some perceive differences due to placing photographs of themselves in their freezers?
Yes, electron drift velocity is slower than the propagation velocity of the wave. But what the drift velocity is depends on what model you use.
More like a disturbance on top of a disturbance. At least under realworld conditions, i.e. those above absolute zero. It's not as if the electrons are just sitting around doing nothing until a signal is applied. They're being randomly jostled around all over the place due to the thermal energy in the conductor.
Yes, the mean free path that an electron can travel before banging into the lattice is a function of phonon behavior seeing as the phonon is the quanta of lattice vibration. But just as the electrons are being randomly jostled about due to the thermal energy in the conductor, so is the lattice being jostled about.
If you want to get an idea of what your phonons are up to, just listen to the thermal noise in a length of wire.
Mmmm. I can see where the dielectric would have an influence on the electric field. But I don't see how it would have any direct influence on lattice vibrations.
Sure. But I don't see how they would do so in any unidirectional way. And of course there's quantum tunneling so you're going to have electrons which behave as if the barrier isn't even there.
Anyway, seems to me that whatever effect may be occurring, would be buried in the thermal noise of the conductor itself. Which unless you've got some REALLY long runs of cable or some REALLY thin speaker wires, will be even further below the thermal noise of the wires in your voicecoils.
But you might also just be chasing a phantom.
I'd just suggest putting the horse in front of the cart instead of the other way around and instead of speculating on what the physical cause may be, work toward establishing that there's actually something your subjective perceptions.
How 'bout a test? Let's say I make up oh, 20 pairs of interconnects or speaker cables, whichever you feel would give the most pronounced difference. Each pair would be made up unidirectionally or bidirectionally at random. I'd send you the 20 pairs and you can listen to them at your leisure and sort out which are which.
You wouldn't have to actually say which was which. Just which ones are the same and which ones are different. I could also make up two reference pairs, one unidirectional and one bidirectional so you could make comparisons to known entities.
At the end of the test, we'd check your results against the master list. If after several trials we get some significant results, then we're on to something and can do some further research and see if we can't get to the bottom of it.
There's also several standing offers of cash out there (one is $4,000) for anyone who can demonstrate audible differences in cables and if you come up with something significant, I'd be happy to do anything I can to help you claim those offers.
se
mrfeedback said:
Why does it make me appear as a moron? How exactly do you KNOW that the reason some perceive differences due to wire direction isn't the same reason some perceive differences due to placing photographs of themselves in their freezers?
Yes, electron drift velocity is slower than the propagation velocity of the wave. But what the drift velocity is depends on what model you use.
More like a disturbance on top of a disturbance. At least under realworld conditions, i.e. those above absolute zero. It's not as if the electrons are just sitting around doing nothing until a signal is applied. They're being randomly jostled around all over the place due to the thermal energy in the conductor.
Yes, the mean free path that an electron can travel before banging into the lattice is a function of phonon behavior seeing as the phonon is the quanta of lattice vibration. But just as the electrons are being randomly jostled about due to the thermal energy in the conductor, so is the lattice being jostled about.
If you want to get an idea of what your phonons are up to, just listen to the thermal noise in a length of wire.
Mmmm. I can see where the dielectric would have an influence on the electric field. But I don't see how it would have any direct influence on lattice vibrations.
Sure. But I don't see how they would do so in any unidirectional way. And of course there's quantum tunneling so you're going to have electrons which behave as if the barrier isn't even there.
Anyway, seems to me that whatever effect may be occurring, would be buried in the thermal noise of the conductor itself. Which unless you've got some REALLY long runs of cable or some REALLY thin speaker wires, will be even further below the thermal noise of the wires in your voicecoils.
But you might also just be chasing a phantom.
I'd just suggest putting the horse in front of the cart instead of the other way around and instead of speculating on what the physical cause may be, work toward establishing that there's actually something your subjective perceptions.
How 'bout a test? Let's say I make up oh, 20 pairs of interconnects or speaker cables, whichever you feel would give the most pronounced difference. Each pair would be made up unidirectionally or bidirectionally at random. I'd send you the 20 pairs and you can listen to them at your leisure and sort out which are which.
You wouldn't have to actually say which was which. Just which ones are the same and which ones are different. I could also make up two reference pairs, one unidirectional and one bidirectional so you could make comparisons to known entities.
At the end of the test, we'd check your results against the master list. If after several trials we get some significant results, then we're on to something and can do some further research and see if we can't get to the bottom of it.
There's also several standing offers of cash out there (one is $4,000) for anyone who can demonstrate audible differences in cables and if you come up with something significant, I'd be happy to do anything I can to help you claim those offers.
se
I won't neither claim that cables are directional nor that they were non directional since I am way too lazy to try it out by myself.
But when discussing cables and music one has to keep in mind that music is definitely NOT DC (which by definition doesn't exist in the real world anyway !). So you definitely can't look at a cable as being just a simple closed conductor loop (with the load connected in series at half of the loop length ) with some DC resistance !
You can take ANY model you like to physically describe the properties of just a "simple" thing like a cable, but there would always be chances for the existance of a more refined model.
Regards
Charles
But when discussing cables and music one has to keep in mind that music is definitely NOT DC (which by definition doesn't exist in the real world anyway !). So you definitely can't look at a cable as being just a simple closed conductor loop (with the load connected in series at half of the loop length ) with some DC resistance !
You can take ANY model you like to physically describe the properties of just a "simple" thing like a cable, but there would always be chances for the existance of a more refined model.
Regards
Charles
Re: Time to pour some gasoline on the fire.......
That was mine, Oscar.......
Digital cables are directional enough that it has been reported the the jitter measurements are different for the differing orientations. I have irrefutable proof the AES EBU digital cables are definitely directional!
"Do I worry about that?'"
You will Oscar, you will.........
Jocko Homo said:
That was mine, Oscar.......
Digital cables are directional enough that it has been reported the the jitter measurements are different for the differing orientations. I have irrefutable proof the AES EBU digital cables are definitely directional!
"Do I worry about that?'"
You will Oscar, you will.........
We've created a monster!
This thread is just getting mental now! It's kinda funny tho.
If it has tought me anything, it's that some DIY-A members are clearly always in pursuit of the music, whilst others have gone so far down the line of 'intellectual' arguments, for the sake of dodgy debating they may never return to the original goal of audio-related happiness! Sorry if it sounds personal, but its the [strong] feeling I have right now.
Please consider the music!
-Simon
This thread is just getting mental now! It's kinda funny tho.
If it has tought me anything, it's that some DIY-A members are clearly always in pursuit of the music, whilst others have gone so far down the line of 'intellectual' arguments, for the sake of dodgy debating they may never return to the original goal of audio-related happiness! Sorry if it sounds personal, but its the [strong] feeling I have right now.
Please consider the music!
-Simon
Invoking SY's Second Law Again
Frank, I tried you suggestion. Here are the gory details:
The experiment was run in two modes: channels same and channels different. I connected about a 17 cm length of #20 copper wire with vinyl insulation between tape in and tape out of my preamp. The wires were attached to plugs at each end, so that their direction could be easily reversed. There was nothing remarkable about the wires, they're normal drawn copper with the insulation (single layer) done by a normal crosshead extrusion process. The two pieces of wire were cut off from the same reel, so that the "direction" could be known and kept track of. I used my usual system these days, ESL-based, with a home-built tube-FET hybrid preamp and (until my DD amps are finished) a Bryston power amp. A few other members have heard my setup, and have commented favorably on definition, tonality, and imaging.
The test discs I used were "Tone Poems" by David Grisman and Tony Rice (a severe tonality test for anyone, like me, attuned to the sound of 'classic' acoustic guitars) and "Live at the Village Gate" by Clark Terry, my usual test for imaging and space.
In "channel same" mode, reversing both the wires caused no audible difference that I or my Radar-O'reilly-eared wife could hear. She made several comments at this point about my sanity.
In "channel different" mode, I just reversed one of the wires. No audible difference to either of us. No image shifting, which would be quite evident on both these discs, but especially on the Terry disc.
And to really try and get the effect that Eric asserts, I did two-wire flips, with "A" being -><- and "B" being <-->. This should double the effect, but still nothing audible to either of us.
At this point, I can't discount that someone, somewhere actually can hear something, but without a controlled test, given the rather fanciful "explanations," it's my opinion that it's more likely due to the same psychological factors that give rise to freezing of photographs and jars full of rocks.
Frank, I tried you suggestion. Here are the gory details:
The experiment was run in two modes: channels same and channels different. I connected about a 17 cm length of #20 copper wire with vinyl insulation between tape in and tape out of my preamp. The wires were attached to plugs at each end, so that their direction could be easily reversed. There was nothing remarkable about the wires, they're normal drawn copper with the insulation (single layer) done by a normal crosshead extrusion process. The two pieces of wire were cut off from the same reel, so that the "direction" could be known and kept track of. I used my usual system these days, ESL-based, with a home-built tube-FET hybrid preamp and (until my DD amps are finished) a Bryston power amp. A few other members have heard my setup, and have commented favorably on definition, tonality, and imaging.
The test discs I used were "Tone Poems" by David Grisman and Tony Rice (a severe tonality test for anyone, like me, attuned to the sound of 'classic' acoustic guitars) and "Live at the Village Gate" by Clark Terry, my usual test for imaging and space.
In "channel same" mode, reversing both the wires caused no audible difference that I or my Radar-O'reilly-eared wife could hear. She made several comments at this point about my sanity.
In "channel different" mode, I just reversed one of the wires. No audible difference to either of us. No image shifting, which would be quite evident on both these discs, but especially on the Terry disc.
And to really try and get the effect that Eric asserts, I did two-wire flips, with "A" being -><- and "B" being <-->. This should double the effect, but still nothing audible to either of us.
At this point, I can't discount that someone, somewhere actually can hear something, but without a controlled test, given the rather fanciful "explanations," it's my opinion that it's more likely due to the same psychological factors that give rise to freezing of photographs and jars full of rocks.
If the supposed effect is due to your hypotheses, it should be even more pronounced in "normal" off-the-reel wire. More crystals, more boundaries, more of those nasty diodes, more oxides. And the insulation has more anisotropy when applied at the high speeds common to this sort of wire.
If you specify which sort of wire would give the strongest effect, I'd like to see you take up Steve's challenge.
If you specify which sort of wire would give the strongest effect, I'd like to see you take up Steve's challenge.
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