"So, I take it you have tried all possible combinations of equipment?"
It isn't possible of course, there are millions of permutations. Fortunately it isn't necessary. You don't have to examine every snowflake to know they are all six sided after you understand the mechanism of how the crystal grows.
"So, which particular parameters are we controlling then?"
I'm not teaching a course in electronic circuit analysis 101 here. You'll have to find a school, pay tuition, and attend class unless you want to study it yourself from a book or on the internet.
"I think you may find many that would disagree."
Bad argument. 1000 years ago everyone would haved agreed that the earth was flat. That didn't make it any less round.
" I have chased enough cases of ground/earth loops in friends setups thta where so brutal that even those who insisted "I cannot hear any differences" found it offensive."
Sounds like a crusade. Keep up the good work. Also sounds like your friends don't know what they are doing. What does ground loops have to do with the characteristics of wire? Sounds more like a problem in circuit analysis. BTW if there is that much ground current flowing in these power distributionn systems, it suggests something may be very wrong and very dangerous. Better check to see if there is an electrical code violation problem...or that you don't create any yourself by opening safety ground connections manufacturers provided.
"And even there is no gross noise, the stuff that floats around many systems, cheap or expensive, is certainly capable to cause significant measurable problems and based on my experiments, which arguably "anecdotal evidence" audible ones."
Even if that were true, why would anyone spend expensive money on wires to rescue a cheap system. BTW where I come from cheap systems don't seem to have these problems. Sounds like serious manufacturing shortcomings. I'd choose my friends more carefully. I'd check to see that nothing dangerous is floating around with them. You never know what contaigen you might catch.
"Well, it seems we have some confusion here. You seem to have an agenda or believe that requires to prove that "expensive is junk"."
No, I'm just stating my opinions based on experience and knowledge. That's what these forums are intended for.
"To me, I prefer high quality and as natural as possible food is important"
Well there you are, you proved the point. Your most convincing argument so far. Eat right, sleep right, exercise, fresh air, and the best wires you can afford. So that's the prescription for a long happy healthy life. Glad to know.
Hi,
Yes, it is a bad arguments, the earth has been shown to be spherical in europe since around 2400 Years ago. I am sorry, but your are just completely making things up to support an untenable position.
If you have to ask, please retake EE101... I am not offering free remidals.
Here you go on again about money. I think this is getting quite silly here...
Ministry of Silly Walks - YouTube
Money is nothing in this issue. If you want to talk abount money your should join Congress or Senate...
Really. Interesting. Or maybe they DO have these problems and your will yourself to not hear them? One would have to, ahhhmmmm, measure, to be sure, subjective assessments really cannot be trusted all that much now, can they now?
That is fair enough. Then you should realise that others may have differing experiences and results. YMMV.
I have not mentioned wires, honestly, what is it with that fixation?
Ciao T
Yes, it is a bad arguments, the earth has been shown to be spherical in europe since around 2400 Years ago. I am sorry, but your are just completely making things up to support an untenable position.
If you have to ask, please retake EE101... I am not offering free remidals.
Here you go on again about money. I think this is getting quite silly here...
Ministry of Silly Walks - YouTube
Money is nothing in this issue. If you want to talk abount money your should join Congress or Senate...
Really. Interesting. Or maybe they DO have these problems and your will yourself to not hear them? One would have to, ahhhmmmm, measure, to be sure, subjective assessments really cannot be trusted all that much now, can they now?
That is fair enough. Then you should realise that others may have differing experiences and results. YMMV.
I have not mentioned wires, honestly, what is it with that fixation?
Ciao T
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I don't understand the insistence to deny cuprous oxides' rectification effects in the face of all evidence to the contrary (including such devices used commercially for decades). It is simple enough to make such a rectifier at home using any commonly available source of copper from a hardware store, but what makes it a rectifier is that the junction is developed by oxidizing the substrate copper. The other electrode can then be made out of any conductive material that happens to contact the face of the oxide, including copper. And, no, real world wire does not oxidize or not oxidize perfectly uniformly per strand, by length or in any other way.
Fact: Cuprous oxide is a semiconductor that will usually NOT conduct equally in both directions when it is created as surface oxidation on copper wire. I don't see how one can 'insulate' a strand of copper with a rectifying cuprous oxide surface at all, so that argument can not apply.
I'll just about guarantee that whether or not anybody has tried to measure this effect AND published it so you and I can see his results - it certainly exists and should be easy enough to measure given any honest, competent effort.
Given that you readily accept Soundminded's example of easily measured rectification effects in a professional wiring installation, I cannot take too seriously your blind insistence that it cannot exist to even the least perceptible extent with visibly deteriorated speaker cable no-way no-how swear-on-a-bible and hope-to-die in an audiophile environment. Especially after you conceded my point regarding broken or imperfectly terminated strands. Sorry.
Fact: Cuprous oxide is a semiconductor that will usually NOT conduct equally in both directions when it is created as surface oxidation on copper wire. I don't see how one can 'insulate' a strand of copper with a rectifying cuprous oxide surface at all, so that argument can not apply.
I'll just about guarantee that whether or not anybody has tried to measure this effect AND published it so you and I can see his results - it certainly exists and should be easy enough to measure given any honest, competent effort.
Given that you readily accept Soundminded's example of easily measured rectification effects in a professional wiring installation, I cannot take too seriously your blind insistence that it cannot exist to even the least perceptible extent with visibly deteriorated speaker cable no-way no-how swear-on-a-bible and hope-to-die in an audiophile environment. Especially after you conceded my point regarding broken or imperfectly terminated strands. Sorry.
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Hi,
I fail to see the point of this.
First of all, just making claims does not make it so> Just because you make up something it does not become true.
If you desire to make the claim: "the belief that if you perfect each element of an audio system to an ultimate degree, you will achive ideal results, that is results that are audibly indistinguishable from live music" it would help tremendously if you provide supporting evidence.
Otherwise it is basically just random noise.
The fatal flaw is that some believe to know the motivation of others they neither know nor ever really talk to.
You can keep making things up, but it does not aid your credibility or those of your opinions.
Ciao T
I fail to see the point of this.
First of all, just making claims does not make it so> Just because you make up something it does not become true.
If you desire to make the claim: "the belief that if you perfect each element of an audio system to an ultimate degree, you will achive ideal results, that is results that are audibly indistinguishable from live music" it would help tremendously if you provide supporting evidence.
Otherwise it is basically just random noise.
The fatal flaw is that some believe to know the motivation of others they neither know nor ever really talk to.
You can keep making things up, but it does not aid your credibility or those of your opinions.
Ciao T
Well I have tried to measure the effects of oxides on a copper strip. I measured the distortion, then heated it with a torch to form lots of oxides, and measured again. No change in the distortion.
The harmonic structure of the distortion in cables does not correlate with what would be expected of diode formations.
I can measure the distortion of cables is different for forward and reverse directions.
So if you have any measurements that show this copper oxide diode distortion I would be most interested to see it.
There are lots of cable issues besides R, L & C. But guessing at explanations without study is not useful.
ES
Thoriated, please re-read what I wrote. Cu-oxide-Cu where both Cu are at the same potential does not act as a diode. Cuprous oxide doesn't act as a diode. What DOES have some weak and leaky rectification effect is the Cu-oxide junction and ONLY when it's forward biased, which is not the case here.
edit: I see I crossposted with Ed, who has verified the basic physics.
edit: I see I crossposted with Ed, who has verified the basic physics.
Changes in skin effect is another way surface oxidation of copper affects its signal conduction quality. I'm talking about all types in aggregate, not just cuprous oxide, so nobody try to pounce on that and claim I'm contradicting myself. Of course, if one insists skin effect can have no effect on SQ, why even use multistrand wire in the first place? It's all the same, right?
Multistrand is generally specified where flexibility is important. That's why your internal house wiring is solid but your IEC cables are stranded. For audio, there's generally not much electrical difference (except in very oddball circumstances), but there is certainly a mechanical difference.
ThorstenL
Why are you arguing with someone who uses the cheapest cables he can find? His perceptions are not yours. Do you think you have any common references?
Lately I have been finding folks who have significant audio experience but cannot locate a sound source! I suspect if you have vast listening experience to modern studio "Stereo" recordings that the ability to localize based on timing is altered!
If your expectation is that it is as good as it gets, that is known as plateauing. A common effect among any endeavor of excellence. It takes a real challenger to get past the plateau.
Why are you arguing with someone who uses the cheapest cables he can find? His perceptions are not yours. Do you think you have any common references?
Lately I have been finding folks who have significant audio experience but cannot locate a sound source! I suspect if you have vast listening experience to modern studio "Stereo" recordings that the ability to localize based on timing is altered!
If your expectation is that it is as good as it gets, that is known as plateauing. A common effect among any endeavor of excellence. It takes a real challenger to get past the plateau.
Nonuniform conductivity would result in distortion. (I have also measured the distortion in resistors.)
SY,
There are advantages to using stranded wire/skin effect when you factor in the power amplifiers feedback. Not a biggie but actually measurable!
A big advantage to stranded wire with a poorly conductive surface is as a deliberate HF-VHF filter!
Of course it is the case here. Any voltage differential over over about 0.1V between two adjacent partially oxidized strands anywhere at any time at any frequency in a cable, which you and I both have already acknowledged will result in interstrand rectification. If you guaranteeing to the world that this cannot ever happen and will never happen, I'm just not buying, sorry.
And saying - oh, surface oxide conduction deterioration happens all the time at connector interfaces but just never at all swear on bible hope to die within a much more chaotic and much larger environment of seriously corroded multistranded cabling with thousands of times more interface contacts subject to breakage and with marginal control of wire cross sectional area with no wire to wire contacts being gas tight, no - ignore all that - those wires are mathematically ideal performance wise - do you get an inkling of how totally internally inconsistent such an assertion is?
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It has been noted that the loudspeaker cable can be noticed when it the resistance is more than 2% of the loudspeakers. So at .1 volt on an 8 ohm loudspeaker allowing for 2 conductors that would require better than 6 watts to get the drop across one length.
Well, you have been singularly unsuccessful so far refuting my case. And then conceding my point regarding broken or unconnected strands and after that still insisting that interstrand rectification will never have any audible effect is, shall we say, less than compelling.
Sorry. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers here. Just trying to explore a physical possibility which correlates with what I hear - when experimentally I pulled a hundred fifty feet of typical 'audiophile' stranded speaker cable from my HT system and replaced with solid conductor that had oxygen tight insulation, I would have put the stranded back if I hadn't heard a significant improvement because the stranded was certainly more convenient to use.
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Hi Ed,
Well, I do so to highlight just how ridiculous, unreasonable and unscientific ideas are, because they actually are being presented as scientific, reasonable and sensible.
Otherwise someone may actually start to believe into this tide of unreasoned and faith based concepts and consider such a belief to be reasonable and scientific in nature contrary to fact.
This is entierly credible, a lot of our response to sound is learned and excessive exposure to "music created artifically in the laboratory" with pan-potted stereo, near DC dynamic range and so on may indeed cause perceptions to change.
Yes, there are always fish that swim with the stream.
And I perfectly accept that someone says "this is good enough for me", again, I have many friends who feel whatever they have in terms of audio is "good enough" (including B*se lifestyle and all plastic Phi*ips and S*ny surround sound systems). I never push them to upgrade or take it more serious, why?
But I know few people (except on audio boards) who will insist that their "good enough" must be "good enough" for everyone (except Bill Gates about 640K max. memory...), that there is a vast evil conspiracy among those that hold different opinions and that anyone who disagrees must be fraudulently making money of this and must be stopped to protect the poor gullible pee-pull.
There are some parallels in 20th century politics, but I find them sufficiently distasteful to not mention them, unless I loose my cool.
Ciao T
Well, I do so to highlight just how ridiculous, unreasonable and unscientific ideas are, because they actually are being presented as scientific, reasonable and sensible.
Otherwise someone may actually start to believe into this tide of unreasoned and faith based concepts and consider such a belief to be reasonable and scientific in nature contrary to fact.
This is entierly credible, a lot of our response to sound is learned and excessive exposure to "music created artifically in the laboratory" with pan-potted stereo, near DC dynamic range and so on may indeed cause perceptions to change.
Yes, there are always fish that swim with the stream.
And I perfectly accept that someone says "this is good enough for me", again, I have many friends who feel whatever they have in terms of audio is "good enough" (including B*se lifestyle and all plastic Phi*ips and S*ny surround sound systems). I never push them to upgrade or take it more serious, why?
But I know few people (except on audio boards) who will insist that their "good enough" must be "good enough" for everyone (except Bill Gates about 640K max. memory...), that there is a vast evil conspiracy among those that hold different opinions and that anyone who disagrees must be fraudulently making money of this and must be stopped to protect the poor gullible pee-pull.
There are some parallels in 20th century politics, but I find them sufficiently distasteful to not mention them, unless I loose my cool.
Ciao T
You haven't made a case which makes any physical sense, and published experimental evidence doesn't cause you to say, "OK, I guess that's not true." Nor have you presented any experimental evidence. So really, it's religion, and I can't refute that.
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