A few problems with that. First, the strands are in parallel and will be at equipotential. Broken strands don't conduct, so they're essentially out of consideration. Conductivity differences between strands will not change the equipotential aspect since they are at the same potential at each end and thus have the same gradient. And, of course, no-one has ever demonstrated such effects; on the contrary, measurements of copper wire (and ALL copper wire exposed to the atmosphere has an oxide layer) show no signs whatever of any sort of rectification.
Corroded wire may indeed deteriorate the sound (I haven't experimented with that, life's too short and good wire is too cheap to worry about it), but interstrand rectification still doesn't make sense as an explanation. My guess is that wire oxidation is correlated with oxidation at the contacts at each end, but that's only a guess.
Hi,
Also consider the plasticiser and other stuff in the clear PVC jacket which has a tendency to migrate out of it and copper forms compounds with just about anything and an enthusiasm that reminds one of that girl in the school (remember, the school bicycle - everyone had a ride)...
It really varies and seems to depend on the plastics used.
The softer the plastic the more I am used to see essentially black copper all along the length if a few years old (even unused spools of wire on the shelf). On the other hand, PE or PTFE insulated cables seems to never have any issues where copper is covered...
Of course non of this, nor any number of measurements or other tests will convince some...
Ciao T
Also consider the plasticiser and other stuff in the clear PVC jacket which has a tendency to migrate out of it and copper forms compounds with just about anything and an enthusiasm that reminds one of that girl in the school (remember, the school bicycle - everyone had a ride)...
It really varies and seems to depend on the plastics used.
The softer the plastic the more I am used to see essentially black copper all along the length if a few years old (even unused spools of wire on the shelf). On the other hand, PE or PTFE insulated cables seems to never have any issues where copper is covered...
Of course non of this, nor any number of measurements or other tests will convince some...
Ciao T
This is true when the wire manufacturer has done a competent job of formulating and producing the insulation. That's normally the case, but there are a few notable exceptions. Transparent PVC is notoriously bad in this respect unless the plasticizers are very carefully chosen and UV/light inhibitors are included in the formulation. If memory serves, Monster Cable was particularly bad in this regard.
edit: cross posted with Thorsten, who made some of the same points. I will note that PTFE is almost invariably extruded over silver plated copper, not over bare copper.
I was about to say more or less the same thing, but you beat me to it
Corrosion along the external surface of a run of wire, single strand or multistrand can't have any effect at audio frequencies (where RF skin effect is non-existant) and interstrand corrosion can't have any effect for the reasons you site.
However in principle at least, corrosion at the junction between a wire and a connector in the case of a crimped or screwed connection could cause distortion, since the corroded joint is in series with the signal. Similarly between a plug and socket contact, if the surface metal was one that could potentially corrode. (Not all plugs and sockets use good quality plating, some cheap ones aren't even plated at all...)
I have on quite a few occasions encountered what sounds like distortion at higher volume levels caused by poor connections in the signal path from an amplifier to speaker - whether it's a banana plug with poor quality plating, insufficient contact tension, or surface oxidation, a screw terminal where the wire is oxidised or the screw isn't tight enough, or even a toggle switch in series with the signal path. (Since a switch can have the same problems as a connector with oxidation or loss of contact tension)
The effect has been enough for me to realise something was wrong when listening (especially if it was only happening in one channel) and get up to fiddle around with the connections to find out what was causing it.
I'm not sure that the "distortion" I've heard is necessarily due to rectification from the oxidation though, I think it could just as easily be fluctuating resistance across the contact point causing a "modulation" of the resistance with current, rather than rectification, as there isn't always oxidation present.
When you have a corroded connection or one where lack of contact tension or poor physical mating leaves a very small contact patch, you can have a lot of resistance at a very tiny contact point, which heats quickly with current flow and becomes very susceptible to changing its resistance value with both current and physical vibration - both of which are present in a speaker.
For a while I had a bunch of toggle switches in a crossover I was developing so I could quickly turn individual drivers on and off for measurement purposes, as well as make quick changes to a few key component values all in the name of speeding up the design process, but even though they had 10A contact ratings, (well beyond the power levels in use) after a few weeks of use and lots of flipping them back and forth I started to notice small, intermittent but audible and measurable changes in the response, even though I was by that time leaving the switches always set in the same "listening" position when just listening to music.
When I'd notice something was wrong I'd give the switches a flick back and forth and usually it would be ok again for a while but then give trouble again later. I tried 3 different types of switches but all had similar problems.
Eventually I eliminated the switches (just soldering and unsoldering things when I wanted to make a change) and the intermittent problems went away. This experience completely turned me off the idea of having any switches in a passive crossover. When you think about it, a switch contact is much like a plug and socket - relatively small contact area, potential for corrosion and loss of tension.
If the switch is before the crossover (like speaker switching relays in the amplifier) it's not such an issue - a small variation in contact resistance of say 0.2 ohms is only going to cause a small level shift. But if the switch is in one section of the crossover affecting only one driver, now your intermittent change in resistance is affecting the balance between different drivers which is much more noticeable especially if it's changing the balance and tracking between midrange and tweeter.
Because of hassles with these issues in the past I've sworn off any non-soldered connections between the input terminals on the back of a speaker and the drivers - no switches, plugs, spade connectors etc. Just soldered connections from the inside of the terminals on the back right through the crossover to the driver terminals. It's really not that hard to do and it does remove several potential sources of corrosion and intermittent performance as the system ages...(all the speakers I've opened up that were over 10-15 years old and which used push on spade connectors on the driver terminals had intermittent connections for example, my solution to which was simply cut them off and solder the wire to the driver terminal, as the original manufacturer should have...)
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It is the perpetual resort of those wishing to sell or have invested emotionally in a religion they've bought into that nothing is perfect, they deal in purely qualitative terms not quantitative ones. This flies in the face of the fact that in an electrical circuit of extremely modest damands, an audio circuit whether you are talking about power, bandwidth, linearity, or distortion, real world shunts are for practical purposes equivalent in performance to the theoretically ideal one. An electrical engineer does not need proof of this anymore than a mathematician worries about Zeno's paradox when calculating the time it will take a car traveling at X-MPH to get from Y to Z. It is the difference between an easily constructed shunt and the wire being tested that is the ONLY valid way to evaluate the performace of wire. That is why audiophiles who have been indoctrinated into this religion and those who profit off their affliction hate it, it shows them up for what they are, out and out frauds.
Soundminded, I also feel sorry for people who are mislead into spending far too much on cable. I also feel that seriously overpriced cables like $1000 for a meter or even $100 a meter are one of the things that can tar the whole home hi fi industry with a bad name.
It becomes challenging for the layman to identify worthwhile cost on properly engineered product vs snake oil.
I hear differences between DIY cables using fairly cheap cable. I have never purchased a pre-made commercial brand name overpriced cable in my life. I have no vested interest in promoting differences in sound between cables for commercial reasons or otherwise. Yet I do hear differences.
It becomes challenging for the layman to identify worthwhile cost on properly engineered product vs snake oil.
I hear differences between DIY cables using fairly cheap cable. I have never purchased a pre-made commercial brand name overpriced cable in my life. I have no vested interest in promoting differences in sound between cables for commercial reasons or otherwise. Yet I do hear differences.
Hi,
The other shoe of this pair fits the other side very well.
Real world shunts and cables are neither zero DCR, nor zero Inductance and they are not immune to RFI, they will drop error voltages if we have mains powered equipment with circulating chassis currents and many other things.
If one focuses purely on the intended function and wilfully ignores the non-ideal behaviour for what we may call parasitic effects, one illustrates very clearly just how blind one becomes from religious adherence to dogma.
No, he does not. Because if he has a few working braincells left and did not sleep through his course, he KNOWS that such proof neither exists nor can it be ever be provided, unless we ignore most of what is actually relevant to the subject.
This is your opinion, however if presented as axiom it is clearly, obviously and patently untrue. Repeating it often does not make it any more true.
On the contrary, it illustrates that those who propose it are either ignorant of really basic electrical theories or have agendas that are not involved with actually establishing the truth of anything.
My point has been made, repeatedly and you have offered nothing of consequence but simply repeated dogma. I have my AP2, other test gear and the measurement results. Clearly, there is no way we will ever agree on anything, so I'll leave it here.
Ciao T
The other shoe of this pair fits the other side very well.
Real world shunts and cables are neither zero DCR, nor zero Inductance and they are not immune to RFI, they will drop error voltages if we have mains powered equipment with circulating chassis currents and many other things.
If one focuses purely on the intended function and wilfully ignores the non-ideal behaviour for what we may call parasitic effects, one illustrates very clearly just how blind one becomes from religious adherence to dogma.
No, he does not. Because if he has a few working braincells left and did not sleep through his course, he KNOWS that such proof neither exists nor can it be ever be provided, unless we ignore most of what is actually relevant to the subject.
This is your opinion, however if presented as axiom it is clearly, obviously and patently untrue. Repeating it often does not make it any more true.
On the contrary, it illustrates that those who propose it are either ignorant of really basic electrical theories or have agendas that are not involved with actually establishing the truth of anything.
My point has been made, repeatedly and you have offered nothing of consequence but simply repeated dogma. I have my AP2, other test gear and the measurement results. Clearly, there is no way we will ever agree on anything, so I'll leave it here.
Ciao T
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I had some speaker wire made for my use. In long runs vs short runs I don't really hear a difference. But that is in Pro use on large loudspeakers. I also use it for my office listening system.
It is now offered as a stock product.
http://www.westpenn-wpw.com/pdfs/cm_PDF/25210.pdf
It is now offered as a stock product.
http://www.westpenn-wpw.com/pdfs/cm_PDF/25210.pdf
Hi,
Prove what?
That I use goldplated silver cables? Yes, but I do not care to make the effort!
That I observed audible differences between cables? I did a fair few blind tests quite a few years ago among a range of stuff. If I intended to support a PhD Thesis I'd publish them, as is I don't care enough to dig out the papers which are halve a globe away!
I am not in the habit of doing other peoples home work.
Ciao T
Prove what?
That I use goldplated silver cables? Yes, but I do not care to make the effort!
That I observed audible differences between cables? I did a fair few blind tests quite a few years ago among a range of stuff. If I intended to support a PhD Thesis I'd publish them, as is I don't care enough to dig out the papers which are halve a globe away!
I am not in the habit of doing other peoples home work.
Ciao T
"Real world shunts and cables are neither zero DCR, nor zero Inductance and they are not immune to RFI,..."
They don't have to be. That's the point. If the parasitic signals or less than perfect perameters are inaudible they are for all practical intents and purposes ideal. The way to find out is to test the threshold of hearing of these parameters as they get continuously lower under controlled experiments. Real world experience demonstrates that they are already low enough even in the most inexpensive and common products. The same goes for many inexpensive CD players which function perfectly. I who could afford to buy whatever is on the market I desire wouldn't dream of buying that overpriced audiophile junk. Not only is it rediculous in concept, it is DEFECTIVE! The cheap ones that have no profit in them invariably turn out to be the best ones. My only regret is that 16 gage zip cord I exclusively use for speaker wire has gone from 10 cents a foot to 20 cents a foot over the years. My supplier of interconnects has gone from Radio Shack to Trisonic at the Dollar Store. They provide the same level of performance as a shunt. As for parasitics I've explained that earlier, why it's rarely a problem except for phono cables and how to deal with it cheaply and effectively. I save my money to spend on things of real value.
The wire debate if you can even seriously call it that points out a much larger issue that shows up as a defect in the audiophile doctrine. That defect is the belief that if you perfect each element of an audio system to an ultimate degree, you will achive ideal results, that is results that are audibly indistinguishable from live music (whatever that means since that concept exists in different contexts with different answers.)
The fatal flaw in that idea is that the concept of high fidelity sound systems as it currently commercially exists is so badly defective that no matter what form it comes in, it will fool nobody with normal hearing for more than a few seconds at most. Not if they are even casually familiar with the sound of live unamplified music and honest about what they hear.
The fatal flaw in that idea is that the concept of high fidelity sound systems as it currently commercially exists is so badly defective that no matter what form it comes in, it will fool nobody with normal hearing for more than a few seconds at most. Not if they are even casually familiar with the sound of live unamplified music and honest about what they hear.
This is a very idealistic view of the opinions of "most" audiophiles. I don't pretend for one second that I could replicate the sound of live music on my hifi at home. I aim to hear every sound clearly. Not recreate the event.
People also don't expect watching a video to be the same as standing in the place where the video was filmed.
Perhaps some reviewers in magazines give over the top descriptions when reviewing equipment, and some advertisers make wild claims, but I hope that this would not fool any sane person.
Hmm.....
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Not at all. Broken strands will conduct the potential from the opposite (unbroken end) to that point specifically without meeting your 'equipotential' requirement, so they would be among the biggest contributors to audible interstrand rectification effects, particularly if the break or nonconnection was toward either end. Remember, their surfaces are presumably oxidized just like all the other strands.
You also neglect to consider that cuprous oxide on a copper substrate is a fairly good insulator in its reverse direction, so that essentially violates your 'equipotential' requirement which is fundamentally dependent on surface oxidation not occurring on each of the strands and their having good interstrand surface to surface conductivity throughout their lengths.
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Hi,
So, I take it you have tried all possible combinations of equipment? And carried out serious test for audibility, double-blind, with sesnible statistics etc? Care to publish the results?
So, which particular parameters are we controlling then?
I think you may find many that would disagree. I have chased enough cases of ground/earth loops in friends setups thta where so brutal that even those who insisted "I cannot hear any differences" found it offensive.
I would say that such experience clearly demonstrates that enough inexpensive and common products have problems that are not low enough to be audible.
And even there is no gross noise, the stuff that floats around many systems, cheap or expensive, is certainly capable to cause significant measurable problems and based on my experiments, which arguably "anecdotal evidence" audible ones.
The point is there is no need to invoke the bogey man, no need to stem any tide of unreason, no need to debunk.
What is needed is some common sense, some serious investigation and a removal of prejudices.
Well, it seems we have some confusion here. You seem to have an agenda or believe that requires to prove that "expensive is junk". Now if we take that position then MacDonalds is good value for money but a decent restaurant is rippoff because it is more expensive.
I find that there is not only no logic or sense nor anything techical. So I see no basis for any discussion.
It is entirely up to you what you spend your money on, as it is up to the individual to decide what matters for them.
To me, I prefer high quality and as natural as possible food is important, others prefer to cheap out on readymeals and fast food. I do not tell anyone they need to eat organic, high quality and expensive from tomorrow on and I do not call them fools for eating what they do (even if I have science to support that perhaps they are fools to eat such garbage). But I also expect the same respect from those who eat readymeals and MickeyD, so as not to call me a fool not eating them.
Then again, if the do so, do I really care?
Ciao T
So, I take it you have tried all possible combinations of equipment? And carried out serious test for audibility, double-blind, with sesnible statistics etc? Care to publish the results?
So, which particular parameters are we controlling then?
I think you may find many that would disagree. I have chased enough cases of ground/earth loops in friends setups thta where so brutal that even those who insisted "I cannot hear any differences" found it offensive.
I would say that such experience clearly demonstrates that enough inexpensive and common products have problems that are not low enough to be audible.
And even there is no gross noise, the stuff that floats around many systems, cheap or expensive, is certainly capable to cause significant measurable problems and based on my experiments, which arguably "anecdotal evidence" audible ones.
The point is there is no need to invoke the bogey man, no need to stem any tide of unreason, no need to debunk.
What is needed is some common sense, some serious investigation and a removal of prejudices.
Well, it seems we have some confusion here. You seem to have an agenda or believe that requires to prove that "expensive is junk". Now if we take that position then MacDonalds is good value for money but a decent restaurant is rippoff because it is more expensive.
I find that there is not only no logic or sense nor anything techical. So I see no basis for any discussion.
It is entirely up to you what you spend your money on, as it is up to the individual to decide what matters for them.
To me, I prefer high quality and as natural as possible food is important, others prefer to cheap out on readymeals and fast food. I do not tell anyone they need to eat organic, high quality and expensive from tomorrow on and I do not call them fools for eating what they do (even if I have science to support that perhaps they are fools to eat such garbage). But I also expect the same respect from those who eat readymeals and MickeyD, so as not to call me a fool not eating them.
Then again, if the do so, do I really care?
Ciao T
Nope, cuprous oxide conducts in either direction, just like any other semiconductor. The copper/copper oxide junction can show a slight rectifying effect iff there exists a potential greater than the forward bias. But the copper on both sides of the cuprous oxide is at the same potential, so that effect is nonexistent unless you take one set of strands which are all broken at one end and one set of strands which are all broken at the other, then connect a potential between them. If you'll pardon me for saying so, that's a bit of a stretch!
If I isolate every strand individually with an insulator, semiconductor, or what-have-you, again, no interstrand rectification. And no one seems to have any measurements of this hypothetical phenomenon, which if true, would be easily measurable.
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