Yes! happy birthday!
And now for my ulterior motive, since this thread has covered a bit of AP S1 troubleshooting already... I want to replace the tantalum caps used throughout my S1. Does anyone have a recommended replacement, ideally one that's known to maintain performance?
Tantalum capacitors are terribly expensive these days. So what else might be a suitable replacement? I see conversation about this topic even here at diyAudio, but I didn't see exact PNs.
Looking at available 15uF/25V tant caps available now (but perhaps different than those available during the S1's build dates), I see a DF of 6-8% @ 120Hz, which is 530.5-707.36ohm. They also show a max ESR of 2ohm at 100kHz. (With that DF, if it holds at 100kHz, they should be comfortably below 1ohm.)
A cheap, 22uF/25V electrolytic of a nominal 85C rating (Lelon REA, Nichicon VZ) will have a loss tangent (approximately equal to DF) of less than one at 120Hz. Way less than one. Like less than 0.2. That means a tremendously lower ESR at 120Hz, though higher-frequency information is missing.
I would guess a nice 105C electrolytic cap would do quite well, but I figured I'd ask before I pulled the trigger on some caps. If anyone has practical experience or can contribute something on this topic, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
And now for my ulterior motive, since this thread has covered a bit of AP S1 troubleshooting already... I want to replace the tantalum caps used throughout my S1. Does anyone have a recommended replacement, ideally one that's known to maintain performance?
Tantalum capacitors are terribly expensive these days. So what else might be a suitable replacement? I see conversation about this topic even here at diyAudio, but I didn't see exact PNs.
Looking at available 15uF/25V tant caps available now (but perhaps different than those available during the S1's build dates), I see a DF of 6-8% @ 120Hz, which is 530.5-707.36ohm. They also show a max ESR of 2ohm at 100kHz. (With that DF, if it holds at 100kHz, they should be comfortably below 1ohm.)
A cheap, 22uF/25V electrolytic of a nominal 85C rating (Lelon REA, Nichicon VZ) will have a loss tangent (approximately equal to DF) of less than one at 120Hz. Way less than one. Like less than 0.2. That means a tremendously lower ESR at 120Hz, though higher-frequency information is missing.
I would guess a nice 105C electrolytic cap would do quite well, but I figured I'd ask before I pulled the trigger on some caps. If anyone has practical experience or can contribute something on this topic, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
It might be worth starting a dedicated thread Evan? Once Udo is ready I presume this thread will be all about the new interface again!
I have an early Sys One that I'm getting going, waiting for my ebay Win 98SE laptop to arrive on Monday. I plan on recapping too, have been in the service docs figuring out next steps, mine is 00018 so has different card layout to units after 00200.
I'm in L.A. PM if you're nearby, maybe we can brainstorm on this.
Cheers,
Ruairi
I have an early Sys One that I'm getting going, waiting for my ebay Win 98SE laptop to arrive on Monday. I plan on recapping too, have been in the service docs figuring out next steps, mine is 00018 so has different card layout to units after 00200.
I'm in L.A. PM if you're nearby, maybe we can brainstorm on this.
Cheers,
Ruairi
Service System One
Hello Evan
About your comments on tantalium caps. They are $0.40 to $1.30 each in small qty.
The total about 6 to 8 per AP what is a $10.00 investment to the working system?
Tantalium caps are very low ESR @ HF. You could sub Low ESR (HF elecytrolic ) 105° types, however the tolerance may bite you in the but in some of the places that they are used.
Duke
Hello Evan
About your comments on tantalium caps. They are $0.40 to $1.30 each in small qty.
The total about 6 to 8 per AP what is a $10.00 investment to the working system?
Tantalium caps are very low ESR @ HF. You could sub Low ESR (HF elecytrolic ) 105° types, however the tolerance may bite you in the but in some of the places that they are used.
Duke
Possible directions for Ap S1 interface
I have read the thread here. No one has succeded in creating a USB interface to run ApWin 2.24.
The key finding is that ApWin 2.24 needs to be hacked so it will not reject the "foreign" USB interface. I believe this would be legal, due to the dropping of Ap factory support. I have a sense it would be worthwhile, but difficult.
I am also working with a gentleman named Peter Williams who is trying to get the APIB-LPT Translator working on Win98 under Win7/8 on VMware through a parallel port. This would work on the standard ApWin 2.24 OS.
Has anyone else tried this? The issue here is getting the parallel port to respond correctly.
I need an inexpensive S1 interface product in order to offer them with the Audio Precisions I have for sale on my eBay store named "marshallbuckphd". I can offer a S1 at a DEEP discount to the first person to achieve this goal.
I have read the thread here. No one has succeded in creating a USB interface to run ApWin 2.24.
The key finding is that ApWin 2.24 needs to be hacked so it will not reject the "foreign" USB interface. I believe this would be legal, due to the dropping of Ap factory support. I have a sense it would be worthwhile, but difficult.
I am also working with a gentleman named Peter Williams who is trying to get the APIB-LPT Translator working on Win98 under Win7/8 on VMware through a parallel port. This would work on the standard ApWin 2.24 OS.
Has anyone else tried this? The issue here is getting the parallel port to respond correctly.
I need an inexpensive S1 interface product in order to offer them with the Audio Precisions I have for sale on my eBay store named "marshallbuckphd". I can offer a S1 at a DEEP discount to the first person to achieve this goal.
Dr Marshall,
A USB to AP1 interface that operates with ApWin 2.24 is in development, its has been developed by Udo here on DiyAudio.
I can confirm its very nicely made and is in final testing - but you will need to talk with Udo, I'm sure he might be interested in your offer.
As a 3rd party tester its not my place to say much more, but only be rest assured the interface and software exists, and will be available as soon as testing has been completed.
A USB to AP1 interface that operates with ApWin 2.24 is in development, its has been developed by Udo here on DiyAudio.
I can confirm its very nicely made and is in final testing - but you will need to talk with Udo, I'm sure he might be interested in your offer.
As a 3rd party tester its not my place to say much more, but only be rest assured the interface and software exists, and will be available as soon as testing has been completed.
Hello Guys,
Sorry for the late response. I had a lot of work and travel last month.
Meantime i send the interface to Evan, John and Michael for final testing.
John found a speed problem with the Sys1 DSP FFT. I will see if i can
do some more optimizations.
USB is a modern packet oriented protocol. These protocols are not well suited
for old style "send a byte and poll for a response" protocols like the one in AP Sys1.
Each byte send needs 125 microseconds and each response needs at least 125 more
microseconds, even with USB high-speed. In the worst case you can only do
4k send-response operations / sec with USB high-speed...
The DLL code does already optimizations of single writes and reads by combining single calls in one USB packet, but the DSP code is special and difficult to optimize at the low level of apio.dll.
@John: The PCB is a 2-layer one and has no spearate ground plane. This is to lower the manufacturing costs somewhat and is a compromise.
I looked closely at the critical current loops and kept them as small as possible.
ESD and EMV problems are relaxed by the metal shell.
Especially the drivers with the high current pulses have separate ceramic caps and extra short connections.
If i would redo the routing i would probably choose a four layer PCB beause it is very difficult to do even simple layout changes because of too less space for signal traces and vias.
Thx,
Udo
Sorry for the late response. I had a lot of work and travel last month.
Meantime i send the interface to Evan, John and Michael for final testing.
John found a speed problem with the Sys1 DSP FFT. I will see if i can
do some more optimizations.
USB is a modern packet oriented protocol. These protocols are not well suited
for old style "send a byte and poll for a response" protocols like the one in AP Sys1.
Each byte send needs 125 microseconds and each response needs at least 125 more
microseconds, even with USB high-speed. In the worst case you can only do
4k send-response operations / sec with USB high-speed...
The DLL code does already optimizations of single writes and reads by combining single calls in one USB packet, but the DSP code is special and difficult to optimize at the low level of apio.dll.
@John: The PCB is a 2-layer one and has no spearate ground plane. This is to lower the manufacturing costs somewhat and is a compromise.
I looked closely at the critical current loops and kept them as small as possible.
ESD and EMV problems are relaxed by the metal shell.
Especially the drivers with the high current pulses have separate ceramic caps and extra short connections.
If i would redo the routing i would probably choose a four layer PCB beause it is very difficult to do even simple layout changes because of too less space for signal traces and vias.
Thx,
Udo
I have no experience with P1 Plus. Does P1 even has the AP interface connector?
This thread is 1 year old today!
Birthday bump for Udo
Big thanks to you! Reminds me to finalize it soon
Yep, its a very compact PCB layout
- my greatest concern would be ESD damage especially when external cables are added to the APIB Bus (in Dry conditions cables can build up a very significant charge).The R/C on the I/O pins is an effective method to reduce the ESD amplitude - however I would not trust the thin Ground track to dissipate this charge to Ground therefore reducing the effectiveness of the I/O R/C networks...
It might not be so bad, as maybe the AP1's own input ESD protection will clamp any ESD discharge on the ABIP bus before it hits the APIBUSB interface
Its a very neat and much needed solution - a big thank you from all AP1 owners
Ap S1 Interface & other system's Info
Hi udok, JohnW & All
1. "Does P1 even has the AP interface connector?" NO later models have GPIB and no APIB. The 25 pin connector is for a PRINTER.
2. "It might not be so bad, as maybe the AP1's own input ESD protection will clamp any ESD discharge on the ABIP bus before it hits the APIBUSB interface" The System One has a very robust ESD network.
3. "John found a speed problem with the Sys1 DSP FFT. I will see if i can
do some more optimizations" The USB adapter can also be used also for System two & Cascade under ApWin.2.24 and the FFT I think might be a bigger problem.
Udo you did not send me the sample hardware.
Best Regards Duke
Hi udok, JohnW & All
1. "Does P1 even has the AP interface connector?" NO later models have GPIB and no APIB. The 25 pin connector is for a PRINTER.
2. "It might not be so bad, as maybe the AP1's own input ESD protection will clamp any ESD discharge on the ABIP bus before it hits the APIBUSB interface
" The System One has a very robust ESD network.3. "John found a speed problem with the Sys1 DSP FFT. I will see if i can
do some more optimizations" The USB adapter can also be used also for System two & Cascade under ApWin.2.24 and the FFT I think might be a bigger problem.
Udo you did not send me the sample hardware.
Best Regards Duke
Hi Duke,
You got email. I send you the hardware at end of week when i am at home.
Problem with the slow DSP FFt is not the download of the data
(this 20 1 kByte blocks go down the USB line in 20 ms),
but the successive 10000 byte pollings done by the ap_hv() function.
Does anybody have a guess what this function is actually doing?
Best Regards,
Udo
You got email. I send you the hardware at end of week when i am at home.
Problem with the slow DSP FFt is not the download of the data
(this 20 1 kByte blocks go down the USB line in 20 ms),
but the successive 10000 byte pollings done by the ap_hv() function.
Does anybody have a guess what this function is actually doing?
Best Regards,
Udo
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No idea, seems odd - I wounder how AP got around the issue with there own USB interface...
BTW, I'll test your USB interface tomorrow with a few AP switchers...
Desired functionality of USB-S1 control
Udo and team
Thanks for the status report on your USB-ApS1 interface.
From my perspective, success would be the ability to perform all the
functions that a S1-222 can do as well as the LPT-APIB interface. The
322 is less important as the digital capabilities of the S2 and ATS-2
instruments is far superior.
I have more than a dozen S1 instruments needing interfaces.
I will continue to cheer you and your colleagues onward!
Marshall
Udo and team
Thanks for the status report on your USB-ApS1 interface.
From my perspective, success would be the ability to perform all the
functions that a S1-222 can do as well as the LPT-APIB interface. The
322 is less important as the digital capabilities of the S2 and ATS-2
instruments is far superior.
I have more than a dozen S1 instruments needing interfaces.
I will continue to cheer you and your colleagues onward!
Marshall