Different boards, sure... did you look at the site I indicated somewhere back in this thread (http://www.playfidelity.com) they have a very complete list of different boards and so on...
I didn't know though, that the DAC circuit section would be a little different, too... interesting is the use of AK4310 (according to datasheet, it has CMOS interface instead of TTL, only 2.8Vpp output (so you have to take that into consideration if you try to do your mod to that board) and it says there it has "high click noise", now don't ask me what that means
). Also that there is an additional opamp, what does it do? it could be in the path to the AVmultiout?
So, by what you measured seems like you have green light to try some opamp-swapping... goog luck
And please post your results, will be interesting for all of us.
I didn't know though, that the DAC circuit section would be a little different, too... interesting is the use of AK4310 (according to datasheet, it has CMOS interface instead of TTL, only 2.8Vpp output (so you have to take that into consideration if you try to do your mod to that board) and it says there it has "high click noise", now don't ask me what that means
). Also that there is an additional opamp, what does it do? it could be in the path to the AVmultiout?So, by what you measured seems like you have green light to try some opamp-swapping... goog luck
And please post your results, will be interesting for all of us.
sancarlosscott,
you might be right (I don't have the time to check back through all those hundreds of posts), but then it's only for certain boards. And maybe not even the scph1002, but for example the 5002, etc... Because many 1002 only have one opamp, and it's between DAC and RCA out. Anyway, I don't understand what you mean with "Maybe first opamp gets the signal no matter which output you use" ...
As the dac signal will always be present at the inputs of the opamps, no matter how many of them there are. It isn't switched or something like that... you could even use the RCA out and the AVout at the same time...
Tolu,
I don't understand your question, either... what audio1st is doing, and what has been under discussion in the last post, is to modify the original circuit so to make it sound better. Then there's the way I (and some others, including Mick, I think) went, which is to take the signal directly after the DAC but feed it into an external output stage. In both cases the problem of the weak amplitude of the signal is solved by amplifying it with the right gain. But if you take the signal directly from the DAC to your Preamp or poweramp, sure it will work, but you don't have standard levels (so you won't be able to do comparisons to normal cdps, etc... also it may have more disadvantages, especially if you connect it directly to the poweramp: there might be insufficient amplitude, or, which is even worse, the load which the poweramp constitutes (and yes, it might even happen with a preamp), could be not ok for the DAC, degradating the soundquality...)
you might be right (I don't have the time to check back through all those hundreds of posts), but then it's only for certain boards. And maybe not even the scph1002, but for example the 5002, etc... Because many 1002 only have one opamp, and it's between DAC and RCA out. Anyway, I don't understand what you mean with "Maybe first opamp gets the signal no matter which output you use" ...
As the dac signal will always be present at the inputs of the opamps, no matter how many of them there are. It isn't switched or something like that... you could even use the RCA out and the AVout at the same time...
Tolu,
I don't understand your question, either... what audio1st is doing, and what has been under discussion in the last post, is to modify the original circuit so to make it sound better. Then there's the way I (and some others, including Mick, I think) went, which is to take the signal directly after the DAC but feed it into an external output stage. In both cases the problem of the weak amplitude of the signal is solved by amplifying it with the right gain. But if you take the signal directly from the DAC to your Preamp or poweramp, sure it will work, but you don't have standard levels (so you won't be able to do comparisons to normal cdps, etc... also it may have more disadvantages, especially if you connect it directly to the poweramp: there might be insufficient amplitude, or, which is even worse, the load which the poweramp constitutes (and yes, it might even happen with a preamp), could be not ok for the DAC, degradating the soundquality...)
I was only suggesting that possibly the RCAs get two stages of amplification while the AV outs only get one. If that's true, it might be why some people, me included, prefer the sound out of the AV out. On the other hand, I have not seen a comparison of the output voltages from the two outputs; that would be interesting.
Most people agree that Model SCPH-100x has the op amp(s) in the output stage for the built-in RCA jacks, while there is no op amp(s) in the output stage for the AV Multi-Out port. Mick Feuerbacher's output stage modification essentially replaces the output stage with a capacitor and resistor to form a high pass filter to the RCA jacks. The capacitor serves as a DC blocker to the RCA jacks. Mick also suggests that an alternative to his output stage modification (leaving stock unit's surface mount capacitors and resistors in place) is to use the AV Multi-Out port with a good-to-high quality compatible AV cable. AFAIK, the Sony AV Multi-Out port is a proprietary design, so one has to modify a Sony AV Multi-Out plug using the correct pin-out orientation, good wire and connectors.
I am not sure of the value of adding an op amp to an output stage that replaces the stock output stage. I have always subscribed to the "less is more" philosophy regarding audio. I just used two 4.7uF Black Gate N capacitors, two 22k PRP metal film resistors and some Mundorf 0.5mm Silver-Gold wire, and the output is more than adequate for feeding my integrated tube amplifier. I haven't measured the voltage from the output, but I did recently measure the sound level at the same volume level setting on my amp I used before. I measured a +3dB SPL difference versus the stock unit output. Not only does the Playstation play louder, it sounds much better as I previously described. The music has greater coherency, clarity, detail, dynamic range and it's just more "musical." Now I'm ready to tackle the power supply.
I am not sure of the value of adding an op amp to an output stage that replaces the stock output stage. I have always subscribed to the "less is more" philosophy regarding audio. I just used two 4.7uF Black Gate N capacitors, two 22k PRP metal film resistors and some Mundorf 0.5mm Silver-Gold wire, and the output is more than adequate for feeding my integrated tube amplifier. I haven't measured the voltage from the output, but I did recently measure the sound level at the same volume level setting on my amp I used before. I measured a +3dB SPL difference versus the stock unit output. Not only does the Playstation play louder, it sounds much better as I previously described. The music has greater coherency, clarity, detail, dynamic range and it's just more "musical." Now I'm ready to tackle the power supply.
@joydivision
I am just pondering if there is any audible difference (except volume) whether you go directly from the DAC to the first gain stage of your (my) preamp or if you first bring the level to the usual 2Veff by an additional opamp.
Sorry, but I can't share the magic of the PS so far. But louder seems to be better is a relevant issue for this machine too.
I am just pondering if there is any audible difference (except volume) whether you go directly from the DAC to the first gain stage of your (my) preamp or if you first bring the level to the usual 2Veff by an additional opamp.
Sorry, but I can't share the magic of the PS so far. But louder seems to be better is a relevant issue for this machine too.
An update on the ps100x with the AK4310 DAC. Output without the op-amp is 0.6V RMS. The first op-amp has a gain of 1.6 (12k in and 20k feedback) and this feeds the second which has unity gain (5.6k input and 5.6k feedback). I guess the second op-amp presents an easy load for the first, keeps distortion low?
Conclusion; the Playstation with the AK4310 is a bad choice(IMHO) for the minimalist bypass output stage...
Tolu, yes they stop the pop....
Conclusion; the Playstation with the AK4310 is a bad choice(IMHO) for the minimalist bypass output stage...
Tolu, yes they stop the pop....
Update.. This 100x Playstation with the AK4310, uses the first op-amp with 1.6 gain to feed the AV out. This means the AV out on this model is no better than the RCA out on other 100x Playstations with the AK4309..
In the attached picture, if you take the output directly after the first cap you get 0.67Vrms, if you take it after the second cap and op-amp you get 1.1Vrms..
In the attached picture, if you take the output directly after the first cap you get 0.67Vrms, if you take it after the second cap and op-amp you get 1.1Vrms..
Attachments
rhing,
you have a perfectly valid point: the lesser parts in the signal path, the better usually is the sound. That's all true. BUT: problem is the output level... You say you can live with it, that's great for you. But for many of us, that's not ok, we need a standard level of 2V, be it for being able to do comparisons easily with other cdps (I admit that this isn't a necessity... but it sure is nice ), be it because the preamp/poweramp, etc, demands this, OR, and that's even worse, because the DAC alone can't correctly drive the next load. Sure, this will rarely be the case, but it can happen. And then an additional opamp stage is required... so, I think the bottom line with the PS is, that everyone must decide what he needs... if you want the audiophile optimized minimalist version, go your way, possibly even dc-coupled (don't remember if there's dc offset at the DAC outs, though...). If you want a compatible output for all applications and still high sound quality, then go with a good external opamp output stage. audio1st's "intermediate" solution is neat aswell, though kind of difficult to implement, due to different board versions.
Regarding output level, it's of no interest to measure SPL levels...
What you want to measure, is the RMS voltage of the PS outs... and this is known, look into the datasheet... for the values and their "translations", look a bit back in this thread.
Tolu:
I already said I don't believe there's any audible difference (at least not for the better. And if the opamp and the circuit is good enough, I dare to say it will sound the same), besides than having the wanted higher volume...
Don't forget that the whole thing of "louder is better" is only psychological. What counts is that we really can't do any proper listening comparison if the levels aren't matched... So don't judge the playstation's sound comparing to any good standard cdp unless you have matched levels! What are you comparing it to, btw? You already know my opinion about the "magic" of the PS... if it was by me, I wouldn't even touch that word... but that the PS has a great sound, beating any of the lower segment normal cdps I heard, that is something I confirmed in my listening tests
You can safely take out the muting transistors. There are no pops at all. But yes, some other cdps, if you take out those transistors, you get yourself a problem lol...
audio1st: you see now what I meant with "difficult to mod the original circuit"?
The voltages you measured, though, don't seem very correct to me...
according to datasheet, the 4310 should output 2.8Vpp, that is about 1V RMS, not 0.6...
How are you measuring? With a normal DMM in AC mode? That won't work, unless the DMM says somewhere on it (or in specs): True RMS...
Only solution to measure RMS voltage with a non-RMS DMM, is to burn yourself a 50Hz 0db amplitude sinewave audiotrack on a CD and play it... then the DMM in AC mode (hopefully) will indicate correct values. At least mine does...
you have a perfectly valid point: the lesser parts in the signal path, the better usually is the sound. That's all true. BUT: problem is the output level... You say you can live with it, that's great for you. But for many of us, that's not ok, we need a standard level of 2V, be it for being able to do comparisons easily with other cdps (I admit that this isn't a necessity... but it sure is nice
), be it because the preamp/poweramp, etc, demands this, OR, and that's even worse, because the DAC alone can't correctly drive the next load. Sure, this will rarely be the case, but it can happen. And then an additional opamp stage is required... so, I think the bottom line with the PS is, that everyone must decide what he needs... if you want the audiophile optimized minimalist version, go your way, possibly even dc-coupled (don't remember if there's dc offset at the DAC outs, though...). If you want a compatible output for all applications and still high sound quality, then go with a good external opamp output stage. audio1st's "intermediate" solution is neat aswell, though kind of difficult to implement, due to different board versions.Regarding output level, it's of no interest to measure SPL levels...
What you want to measure, is the RMS voltage of the PS outs... and this is known, look into the datasheet... for the values and their "translations", look a bit back in this thread.
Tolu:
I already said I don't believe there's any audible difference (at least not for the better. And if the opamp and the circuit is good enough, I dare to say it will sound the same), besides than having the wanted higher volume...
Don't forget that the whole thing of "louder is better" is only psychological. What counts is that we really can't do any proper listening comparison if the levels aren't matched... So don't judge the playstation's sound comparing to any good standard cdp unless you have matched levels! What are you comparing it to, btw? You already know my opinion about the "magic" of the PS... if it was by me, I wouldn't even touch that word... but that the PS has a great sound, beating any of the lower segment normal cdps I heard, that is something I confirmed in my listening tests
You can safely take out the muting transistors. There are no pops at all. But yes, some other cdps, if you take out those transistors, you get yourself a problem lol...
audio1st: you see now what I meant with "difficult to mod the original circuit"?
The voltages you measured, though, don't seem very correct to me...
according to datasheet, the 4310 should output 2.8Vpp, that is about 1V RMS, not 0.6...
How are you measuring? With a normal DMM in AC mode? That won't work, unless the DMM says somewhere on it (or in specs): True RMS...
Only solution to measure RMS voltage with a non-RMS DMM, is to burn yourself a 50Hz 0db amplitude sinewave audiotrack on a CD and play it... then the DMM in AC mode (hopefully) will indicate correct values. At least mine does...
Yesterday I did some listening again.
Norah Jones - Come away with me
Diana Krall - Live in Paris
PS1 vs. Panasonic DVD-S75
PS1 sounded more pleasent in many cases. Sound wasn't aggressive in no way. Stage was well contoured.
Panasonic was brighter and clearer but Norah had a some aggressions in her voice. Stage was wider but not so well contoured.
With other CDs the Panasonic sounds extremely precise but misses sometimes the whole thing. I like sometimes its' sparkling.
PS1 sounds accomodate but the very upper and the very low frequency band seems to be a little bit underrepresented. But that is an issue that many CDPs have: too much sparkling or too much covered.
I think it depends on the music and on the mood which one is better. It is personal taste like almost everything.
Norah Jones - Come away with me
Diana Krall - Live in Paris
PS1 vs. Panasonic DVD-S75
PS1 sounded more pleasent in many cases. Sound wasn't aggressive in no way. Stage was well contoured.
Panasonic was brighter and clearer but Norah had a some aggressions in her voice. Stage was wider but not so well contoured.
With other CDs the Panasonic sounds extremely precise but misses sometimes the whole thing. I like sometimes its' sparkling.
PS1 sounds accomodate but the very upper and the very low frequency band seems to be a little bit underrepresented. But that is an issue that many CDPs have: too much sparkling or too much covered.
I think it depends on the music and on the mood which one is better. It is personal taste like almost everything.
joydivision said:rhing,
you have a perfectly valid point: the lesser parts in the signal path, the better usually is the sound. That's all true. BUT: problem is the output level... You say you can live with it, that's great for you. But for many of us, that's not ok, we need a standard level of 2V, be it for being able to do comparisons easily with other cdps (I admit that this isn't a necessity... but it sure is nice
Regarding output level, it's of no interest to measure SPL levels...
What you want to measure, is the RMS voltage of the PS outs... and this is known, look into the datasheet... for the values and their "translations", look a bit back in this thread.
Joydivision,
I am sure that not everyone can live with the lower output of the Playstation. I also agree that output measured in SPL is not a true measurement of the Playstation's output, but I only provided it as a relative measurement. I just wanted to back my own perception of higher volume I have heard with a sound level measurement. I will try burning a test track and measuring the voltage output per Audio1st's suggestion.
I would suggest that many who are interested in modifying the output stage to try Mick Feuerbacher's modification first. If higher output is required, then add some form of amplification to the DAC's output later. In the meantime, I am thoroughly enjoying the Playstation as my primary digital source.
Tolu,
You won't be satisfied with the Playstation's sound quality until you try the output stage mod. The upper frequencies became more balanced with the lows and mids once I modded the unit. Overall, the sound is sweeter, not necessarily brighter in an artificial way. The soundstage definitely grew larger with improved imaging where I can locate instruments in the soundstage more accurately. Most importantly, I just enjoy listening to the music more. For the money you paid for the Playstation, what do you have to lose?
rhing said:
Sure, I fully agree that this is the best way to go. First, try with the minimalist output á la Mick, to be able to make yourself a picture of how the PS1 sounds, and then, if needed, add a good output stage of your preference with correct gain. But then don't forget the importance of continuing to improve the playstation: linear power supply and a real case for the whole beast... and if you want comfort, a LCD and a remote control. So that's it, nothing else needed
Audio1st, normal DMMs (without true rms), most likely will display an almost correct RMS value for a 50Hz sinewave (for europe), as that is the frequency of normal AC voltages...
chofaichan:
what post is that what you just cited? I didn't see it yet... but then, I didn't go through all of the hundreds of pages of this topic...
As for being cheated, I don't think so... but then, I have yet to listen to one of those multiple thousand dollar CDPs... but I would say, they should sound at least as good, if not most probably better, than the playstation (even modded). If not, then it's not being cheated, it's more like being robbed
The only thing I know for sure - because I did my comparisons - is that the playstation (even un-modded) sounds better than every lower-segment cdp I've heard, and even better than some mid-segment players. Just to give an idea, my modded PS1 sounds as good as a modded Marantz CD40 (new clock and all). But in this post you cited, there's a big mistake: the playstation ONE doesn't sound good at all. It sounds like a real plastic console is supposed to sound...
what post is that what you just cited?
I didn't see it yet... but then, I didn't go through all of the hundreds of pages of this topic...As for being cheated, I don't think so... but then, I have yet to listen to one of those multiple thousand dollar CDPs... but I would say, they should sound at least as good, if not most probably better, than the playstation (even modded). If not, then it's not being cheated, it's more like being robbed
The only thing I know for sure - because I did my comparisons - is that the playstation (even un-modded) sounds better than every lower-segment cdp I've heard, and even better than some mid-segment players. Just to give an idea, my modded PS1 sounds as good as a modded Marantz CD40 (new clock and all). But in this post you cited, there's a big mistake: the playstation ONE doesn't sound good at all. It sounds like a real plastic console is supposed to sound...
Hi folks
operation has been a success. I did the Mick F. output mod but without the decoupling caps and Rs. Directly from 4309 to cinch.
Sound improved but now AV multi out isn't working anymore. I just removed the first two caps not the other 4.
So what, sound is good but I have to compare the next days again.
I have to repeat: I hate SMD
!
operation has been a success. I did the Mick F. output mod but without the decoupling caps and Rs. Directly from 4309 to cinch.
Sound improved but now AV multi out isn't working anymore. I just removed the first two caps not the other 4.
So what, sound is good but I have to compare the next days again.
I have to repeat: I hate SMD
!