I don't know what you guys are doing for music servers but this product caught my eye;
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fiveninjas/slice-a-media-player-and-more?ref=nav_search
I'm tempted to get a diskless one, add a SSD and install something like Volumio or Rune; that would give me a reasonable player for my USB headphone amp and a networked UPnP music server to stream music files to the miero-equipped Beaglebone Black that is upstream of my Acko SO3 isolator/reclocker and Buffalo DAC. In theory, as it is based on the RPi architecture it should be possible to replace the pre-installed software with solutions such as Volumio, but I'm gonna ask some questions about it. In music server mode the clock compromises of the RPi won't be a factor.
Ray
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fiveninjas/slice-a-media-player-and-more?ref=nav_search
I'm tempted to get a diskless one, add a SSD and install something like Volumio or Rune; that would give me a reasonable player for my USB headphone amp and a networked UPnP music server to stream music files to the miero-equipped Beaglebone Black that is upstream of my Acko SO3 isolator/reclocker and Buffalo DAC. In theory, as it is based on the RPi architecture it should be possible to replace the pre-installed software with solutions such as Volumio, but I'm gonna ask some questions about it. In music server mode the clock compromises of the RPi won't be a factor.
Ray
Well a complete network-based audio system consists of
- music server
- NAS (or some other form of data storage, even local)
- client (AKA controller)
- renderer
These different components can be individual hardware devices, or the functions bundled, or even all functions running on a single computer.
In a typical SqueezeBox setup the server application might be running on a NAS device, streaming audio to a separate renderer. The client controller application might be running on a (separate) tablet computer, or the renderer and controller might be running on a single device - as with SqueezeBox hardware products (eg. SqueezeBox Touch).
A typical Music Player Daemon setup is different - the server application and renderer might be running on the same hardware device, accessing music files across a network (not "streaming") from a separate NAS.
Which leads me to the point that IMO, the correct generic term for such systems is "network-based audio system" not "streaming audio system" since the streaming technical model is really the most common implementation of a broader concept.
It's a bit like The Netherlands being referred to as Holland.
- music server
- NAS (or some other form of data storage, even local)
- client (AKA controller)
- renderer
These different components can be individual hardware devices, or the functions bundled, or even all functions running on a single computer.
In a typical SqueezeBox setup the server application might be running on a NAS device, streaming audio to a separate renderer. The client controller application might be running on a (separate) tablet computer, or the renderer and controller might be running on a single device - as with SqueezeBox hardware products (eg. SqueezeBox Touch).
A typical Music Player Daemon setup is different - the server application and renderer might be running on the same hardware device, accessing music files across a network (not "streaming") from a separate NAS.
Which leads me to the point that IMO, the correct generic term for such systems is "network-based audio system" not "streaming audio system" since the streaming technical model is really the most common implementation of a broader concept.
It's a bit like The Netherlands being referred to as Holland.
for starters easiest way of network streaming is NAS (i.e. Synology) -> controller (apple/android device) -> USB DAC... Synology has it's own music server (audio station) and interface called DS audio which can be installed on your apple/android device, connect USB cable between NAS and DAC, install DS audio on your device, play music stored on NAS...
from Synology
https://www.synology.com/en-us/knowledgebase/tutorials/499
I believe this says streaming from NAS to a DLNA/UPnP-compliant device such as the EDEL is possible.
As I am also new at this please correct me if I am wrong
Best
Bob
https://www.synology.com/en-us/knowledgebase/tutorials/499
I believe this says streaming from NAS to a DLNA/UPnP-compliant device such as the EDEL is possible.
As I am also new at this please correct me if I am wrong
Best
Bob
Thanks Linuxfan, great information!
But I would like to take baby steps first. Excuse my ignorance as I am trying the get my head around concepts clearly:
My current test bench has a Foobar media player on PC driving a USB DAC directly. Music libraries etc all taken care by Foobar
Music is served up from local HD. So now if I were to use a remote NAS instead and map the drive to the PC then the process is still transparent. NAS acting more like a fileserver only and nothing else. Simple and straightforward.
So how does this setup fit into the scheme of things that you have presented?
OK, so you are moving from a one-box solution to a two-box solution. Your PC is now acting as:
- music server (foobar)
- client (foobar)
- renderer (foobar, in combination with USB DAC)
The core device in your music playback system is your personal computer. I prefer not to do this, partly because my computer is in a different area of the house from my designated music listening area. But my computer is still used to acquire and manage my music collection, which is stored locally on the computer, and duplicated to a NAS.
In the future you might consider splitting out the client function to a tablet computer. I really like this idea, because it frees me to control music playback while I am walking around in the kitchen. I'm freed from having to control music playback from the same physical location where the music player device is located. I'm only 2 or 3 metres away, but it's a significant distance.
If you get to that point yourself, and want to stick with foobar, I'm told there's a good foobar client called "foo_upnp"
foobar2000: Components Repository - UPnP/DLNA Renderer, Server, Control Point
- music server (foobar)
- client (foobar)
- renderer (foobar, in combination with USB DAC)
The core device in your music playback system is your personal computer. I prefer not to do this, partly because my computer is in a different area of the house from my designated music listening area. But my computer is still used to acquire and manage my music collection, which is stored locally on the computer, and duplicated to a NAS.
In the future you might consider splitting out the client function to a tablet computer. I really like this idea, because it frees me to control music playback while I am walking around in the kitchen. I'm freed from having to control music playback from the same physical location where the music player device is located. I'm only 2 or 3 metres away, but it's a significant distance.
If you get to that point yourself, and want to stick with foobar, I'm told there's a good foobar client called "foo_upnp"
foobar2000: Components Repository - UPnP/DLNA Renderer, Server, Control Point
Acko, if you're acquiring some network storage to expand on your current PC based setup then you need to just confirm your 'strategic' direction and I would suggest taking a slightly larger (but still baby sized) first step.
What do I mean by 'strategic'? Basically there are three popular approaches to a network based music system, Squeezebox (SlimServer), Apple (Airplay/TV?), or DLNA/UPnP. I have no experience of Apple's solution so will just comment on the other two further, though I think the Apple approach is closer to UPnP in what it offers? Squeezebox is primarily a music oriented solution whereas UPnP is multi-media (music, video, pictures). Squeezebox is something of a niche product whereas UPnP comes from electronics industry collaboration and is found on many mainstream devices and is used by, amongst others, Linn for their network players. Each has its pros/cons and each has its advocates. I've used both and, in a music context, could easily live with squeezebox but I have adopted UPnP simply because I have UPnP equipped devices (such as my home cinema amp).
The slightly larger baby step I would take is, if your buying some network storage, to buy a device that has, or is able to have, a media server app on it - that means that your music files will be managed/libraried on the network storage, removing the dependency on your computer to serve music (this will become important as devices get added, for example, if you use a smartphone or tablet as a control point with the server function on the storage device you can use the smartphone/tablet as a renderer too without needing the PC on, very handy for listening via headphones in the workshop I find). I use BubbleUPnP as the control point App on my smartphone and tablet and I use Asset UPnP as my music media server app.
I don't know Foobar but I'm guessing it can consume music files from a network located media server. I use J River MC on my laptop and it has no problems integrating into my system.
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is resilience/recovery. Many people buy networked storage solutions with some level of RAID (RAID is the overarching acronym for a number of approaches to spreading data across multiple disks so that a disk failure can be tolerated), most commonly mirroring (where the same data is simply written to two disks at the same time). With many modern network storage solutions the loss of a disk will not stop the service running and on some it is possible to hot swap a replacement without powering the device down. Many people consider that their music collection is safe on that basis without considering the implications of a burglary or house fire so be wise and buy a means of backing up your network storage and then remove the backup to somewhere safe - I back up my network storage monthly onto a USB hard drive and kstore the backup disk in my workplace office. By the way, on the subject of backups, most network storage solutions are able to automatically back up the home computers in your house too.
Acko, I hope this hasn't confused you but PM me (or mail me, you have my address) if there's anything else I can help with.
Ray
@Linuxfan
Fantastic!
You have nailed it nicely, much appreciated
Next question if you do not mind is the concept of DLNA/UPnP. Quite a bit of this floating around and gives me the impression of an open architecture (and great selling point for commercial products). I bought a Samsung Blu-ray player (BD H6500) last Christmas to replace my PS3 - super cheap at $120! Not interested in games so thought of something simpler. To my surprise this tiny el cheapo plastic box was also a full-blown media player with wifi and Internet.
Renders video better than the previous PS3 and with streaming capabilities just like Squeezebox, just all Apps from Samsung website There is a USB port to connect an external drive.
So I was thinking I could also run this as a NAS/Music Server just like Slice Media and with DLNA/UPnP means renderers like Edel-NMR and BBB could hang off it nicely. Manual was crap so turned to Samsung support but response was third party hardware may not be compatible or supported!
Instead they gave me a leaflet containing their own compatible hardware as shown in this "Multiroom Link" network - non of which are audiophile grade. Where would your concepts fit in now and is it really true that manufacturers can close off their implementation of DLNA/UPnP with their own hardware only?
Any thoughts?
TIA
Fantastic!
You have nailed it nicely, much appreciated
Next question if you do not mind is the concept of DLNA/UPnP. Quite a bit of this floating around and gives me the impression of an open architecture (and great selling point for commercial products). I bought a Samsung Blu-ray player (BD H6500) last Christmas to replace my PS3 - super cheap at $120! Not interested in games so thought of something simpler. To my surprise this tiny el cheapo plastic box was also a full-blown media player with wifi and Internet.
Renders video better than the previous PS3 and with streaming capabilities just like Squeezebox, just all Apps from Samsung website There is a USB port to connect an external drive.
So I was thinking I could also run this as a NAS/Music Server just like Slice Media and with DLNA/UPnP means renderers like Edel-NMR and BBB could hang off it nicely. Manual was crap so turned to Samsung support but response was third party hardware may not be compatible or supported!
Instead they gave me a leaflet containing their own compatible hardware as shown in this "Multiroom Link" network - non of which are audiophile grade. Where would your concepts fit in now and is it really true that manufacturers can close off their implementation of DLNA/UPnP with their own hardware only?
Any thoughts?
TIA
Attachments
Thanks for this. Helped a lot. Many have also asked me these questions and they will find these useful as well. Yes, eventually will move control point to mobile devices but home mobile "ecosystem" is all Apple devices so I guess BubbleUPnP will not work. What about RuneAudio and Volumio - they seem to do similar control point stuff at least for BBB/Pi?
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Burglary, house fire ?
More worried about family members pulling the plug! That was what happened to the PS3. Yes, this type of deployment has to come with 'disaster recovery' planned
Thanks for the advice
Looks like you're going UPnP then; I forgot about your Edel-NMR, which is a UPnP renderer.
BTW, one thing about UPnP is that you don't have to worry about mapping drives etc. the protocol takes care of the comms between the components.
There will be UPnP controller apps for Apple if you search the store and check out the reviews. A couple of years ago PS Audio had a nice music-only app called e-lyric that I used for a while but I've no idea what its current status is.
Volumio and Rune (at least latter versions) both advertise themselves as UPnP servers and renderers as I recall; easy to test/check as they're free downloads.
My own network storage is a few years old now and getting pretty full so I'll probably be changing it shortly; probably go for a QNAP NAS and install AssetUPnP on it. I may get a slice and install volumio but only use it as a renderer for my headphone amp.
Ray
Good point! I can now see where the Slice Media Player fits in.
Would be nice, if I can get the Samsung gizmo to do that also. In that way just one HDMI device to TV and less clutter on the entertainment unit.
I can't offer any advice about DLNA/UPnP and devices which support it. I'm not a fan of DLNA/UPnp - it seems an unnecessary layer of additional software just to facilitate discovery between network components. The sensible way to define connectivity between network components is just to specifiy their IP addresses.
With MPD it's been reported that SQ is better when the computer running MPD is free from having to control a mass storage device - thus it's better to have a distinctly separate NAS device.
Mmm, are you sure? Devices of this type usually offer network interoperability only as a renderer. I could be wrong, but frankly I'm not interested in spending any time investigating. It's just another proprietary device marketed to persuade us to buy "vendor-compatible" accessories.
Yes, that's a very sensible configuration, and a good example is the Netgear ReadyNAS. But this approach is more applicable to systems which use true streaming, and particularly SqueezeBox/LMS.
With MPD it's been reported that SQ is better when the computer running MPD is free from having to control a mass storage device - thus it's better to have a distinctly separate NAS device.
I don't disagree with your comments about UP addresses but the simple fact is that for 'Joe Public' DLNA/UPnP just works and, more importantly for us, I haven't detected any affect on sound quality.
I suspect it will act as a media server for on-line services like netflix, youtube etc. but will be able to render music from the home network storage.
It is equally applicable to UPnP and Squeezebox.
Agree, I keep all of my music in only one place (on the network storage) to keep things simple and to remove the server function from renderers, which is where, simplisitically, the music file gets played, so best done unhindered by extra processing as far as possible. The only exception to this is some FLAC files I have stored on my smartphone for mobile listening.
Ray
Thanks All, great flow of information and ideas
Just to summarize my understanding so far:
1. If PC with media player and transport attached, just a simple NAS will do as enquired in post #3
2. BBB/Pi with RuneAudio/Volumio: same as #1
3. For renderers only like EDEL-NMR we need to setup a Media Server (+ Storage)
Looks like there are several options for Media Servers.
So coming back to this thread topic, what is so special about the Slice Media Player?
Just to summarize my understanding so far:
1. If PC with media player and transport attached, just a simple NAS will do as enquired in post #3
2. BBB/Pi with RuneAudio/Volumio: same as #1
3. For renderers only like EDEL-NMR we need to setup a Media Server (+ Storage)
Looks like there are several options for Media Servers.
So coming back to this thread topic, what is so special about the Slice Media Player?
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Thanks All, great flow of information and ideas
Just to summarize my understanding so far:
1. If PC with media player and transport attached, just a simple NAS will do as enquired in post #3
2. BBB/Pi with RuneAudio/Volumio: same as #1
3. For renderers only like EDEL-NMR we need to setup a Media Server (+ Storage)
Looks like there are several options for Media Servers.
So coming back to this thread topic, what is so special about the Slice Media Player?
In reverse order...
There is nothing 'special' about the Slice; I brought to people's attention because it looks like a neat exploitation of the RPi at a not unreasonable price. Ignoring its supplied software I thought it might be useful, by loading something like Volumio, as a 'starter' server/renderer or in a different software config as a simple low coat media server. I may well obtain one for use in my second 'office' headphone system. As we've discussed above though, for my primary home network I already have a network storage device that hosts my media files and functions as the media server. Out of the box the slice appears to be closer to internet media servers like the Western Digital TV.
Dedicated network renderers like the Edel -NMR, require the upstream infrastructure we've discussed (media server, control point, etc) as their network port is the only means of delivering music files to their processor.
A BBB/RPi with Volumio/Rune or a PC with Foobar/J River would be operating as media server/renderer combos (possibly as control points too)so will require storage, whether that be a local hard disk type device or a NAS.
Back to your last point, yes, there are a number of media server options. Remember though that you'll be hard pushed to find a modern NAS that can't also function as a media server so if you buy a NAS you might as well use it as a media server and remove the reliance on a home computer. If you decide to do that then the question shifts to finding the right NAS with an appropriate media server app.
How about we flip the question; what is it you wish to achieve?
Ray
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