4395 the Best?
That's one variable too far for me right now .. my board has the 4396 and it stays that way until I have tried the modifications.
Does anyone have any idea about the number of variables when evaluating boards where each of the passive components can be changed/ upgraded and then the actives too? It moves from serious evaluation to a matter of faith and then into aggression (in some forums that I have visited). I shall stay an atheist in this ... at least until I have built the board.
That's one variable too far for me right now .. my board has the 4396 and it stays that way until I have tried the modifications.
Does anyone have any idea about the number of variables when evaluating boards where each of the passive components can be changed/ upgraded and then the actives too? It moves from serious evaluation to a matter of faith and then into aggression (in some forums that I have visited). I shall stay an atheist in this ... at least until I have built the board.
Nice work on the BOM !
According to Sendler who's had some experience with the various AKM chips, he rates the 4395 to be the best.
You're welcome Andy.
From what I understand from Sandler's thread he tried both AK439x with the same transformer based LPF...
And now I know for sure that this isn't a fair comparison.
In fact Sandler says that AK4395 sounds richer, with more harmonics and body...
It reminds me something... the AK4396 with his correct outstage sounds also this way compared with the wrong outstage
Sandler also says that AK4395 soundstage is deeper and less forward, to me also an indication of the wrong outstage for AK4396...
I think I'll keep my 'Miracle DAC'
Did anyone try this DIR9001 AD1955 (MK3A) DAC? How is it compare with the AK439X?
Full Assembled DIR9001 AD1955 (MK3A) DAC Decoder Board - eBay (item 110678034709 end time Jul-20-11 22:49:12 PDT)
Full Assembled DIR9001 AD1955 (MK3A) DAC Decoder Board - eBay (item 110678034709 end time Jul-20-11 22:49:12 PDT)
Audible Improvements
From here on in, any comments about the relative improvements or otherwise between the 4396 and 4395 have to mention which output stage was being used(and which board, if possible). If the wrong output stages are used then the comments, IMHO, are invalidated. Clave is dead right to mention this.
From here on in, any comments about the relative improvements or otherwise between the 4396 and 4395 have to mention which output stage was being used(and which board, if possible). If the wrong output stages are used then the comments, IMHO, are invalidated. Clave is dead right to mention this.
Yes, I have this kit also. It costs more than the AKM board being discussed here, but has the added benefit of USB input. It sounds pretty good in stock form, but the mods we're making on this thread are showing the AKM to be that little bit more special.
It has to be said tho - the gains aquired by modifications will be dependant on the resolution of partering equipment..
-Andy-
However, sendlers observations were made using either a high quality blocking cap or transformer coupling direct off the chip!
Exactly, so it's as saying he used the same outstage/LPF for the two different DACs.
But the two DACs needs a different outstage/LPF to give comparable output level and frequency response... (the datasheet is cristal clear about it)
We may also add that the two different DACs could react differently with the capacitive load of the cap or the transfo...
Obviously without the LPF the resulting signal is 'purer' since it's not distorted by the non ideal behaviour of caps and active parts but, if the DACs (like AK439x) needs further filtering to have a linear frequency response, what you hear cannot be defined faithful nor accurate...IMHO
Hi Andy,
I also bought this board last week and trying to see if the mod on AKM can be applicable to this DAC as well. I am alo thinking if the last OPamp can be bypass or not or even replace by a tube stage?
Trust your ears. I recommend to don't force yourself to use LPF section. I'm using AK4396's for 4 years without any active or passive LPF. Just a carbon type resistor and dc blocking cap. This is the shortest way for getting into pure sound.
Agreed that people should trust their own ears. The filter caps can add a very noticeable signature to the sound. Some may prefer no cap to a bad cap. Paul_Peraic and I recommend KP1830 capacitors in this location, however Evox PFR I think are also film foil capacitors and would also be good candidates for this location. Film foil caps IMO seem to be the least intrusive sonically in filter circuits. they are also popular with some people when building and upgrading phono pre-amps.
Other possibilities for caps in this location are axial polystyrene, which i have tried, but they can add a little bit of brightness ( or perhaps sibilance), but there are so many brands, that this statement may not be true for all polystyrene. However I still prefer polystyrene over most MKT caps.
From my previous experiments (on other DAC chips) I prefer to have a filter. YMMV
Other possibilities for caps in this location are axial polystyrene, which i have tried, but they can add a little bit of brightness ( or perhaps sibilance), but there are so many brands, that this statement may not be true for all polystyrene. However I still prefer polystyrene over most MKT caps.
From my previous experiments (on other DAC chips) I prefer to have a filter. YMMV
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Thank you all for the DAC attention.
At present the DAC is blue, before had green. Just new PCB improved the production process materials, demand higher some.
I'll try to select high-quality capacitors offer to friends. So some of the models and may capacitance is not consistent. I'm so sorry.
Because I don't know EABY. So DAC is mainly to a few friends in China to sell, and if there are any questions can contact me. Thank you.
At present the DAC is blue, before had green. Just new PCB improved the production process materials, demand higher some.
I'll try to select high-quality capacitors offer to friends. So some of the models and may capacitance is not consistent. I'm so sorry.
Because I don't know EABY. So DAC is mainly to a few friends in China to sell, and if there are any questions can contact me. Thank you.
The only seller i could find for the un-assembled kit version was zoe_tsang, and that's the one i've ordered. Seems to be a couple sellers of the assembled board.
NEW Hi end DAC 24 BIT 192K HZ AK4396 sc | eBay UK
Zoe_tsang
Hi,
i have ordered from Zoe_tsang and had a few email exchanges with him. He has been very helpful so far.. the boards are expected in a few weeks.
Re the filtering after the AK4396. On another forum, re. the mods to a Sony PlayStation PS1, one of the more successful (and simple) mods is to take the output directly from the pins on the DAC directly to a pre-amp. As my pre-amp already had a capacitor on the input I used no filtering whatsoever and it sounds really great. It seems to me that builders of this board should set up the possibility of direct and filtered outputs via a switch for A-B comparison...keeping in mind that the non-filtered output might have some DC on it (OK, if you have a cap in the pre-amp input as above). Changes in this area can make big differences on the sound qualities.
Hi,
i have ordered from Zoe_tsang and had a few email exchanges with him. He has been very helpful so far.. the boards are expected in a few weeks.
Re the filtering after the AK4396. On another forum, re. the mods to a Sony PlayStation PS1, one of the more successful (and simple) mods is to take the output directly from the pins on the DAC directly to a pre-amp. As my pre-amp already had a capacitor on the input I used no filtering whatsoever and it sounds really great. It seems to me that builders of this board should set up the possibility of direct and filtered outputs via a switch for A-B comparison...keeping in mind that the non-filtered output might have some DC on it (OK, if you have a cap in the pre-amp input as above). Changes in this area can make big differences on the sound qualities.
Filter differences (as spec'd by Asahi Kasei)
Ok, I've checked the spec sheets (Clave did a great job of modelling two of these circuits in a previous post- cheers again Clave),
But after looking at all three AK IC LPF specs, it's clear there are differences...
Here's the info :-
AK 4393
AK 4395
AK 4396
So, if you're gonna stick with whatever chipset/pcb you've bought (and opamp output stage), you're gonna need to make sure you have the correct values.
My kit? -It came fitted with the 4396 IC & filter configuration for the 4393!!!!
So there you go George - yet another variable to add into the mix ! lol
-Andy-
Ok, I've checked the spec sheets (Clave did a great job of modelling two of these circuits in a previous post- cheers again Clave),
But after looking at all three AK IC LPF specs, it's clear there are differences...
Here's the info :-
AK 4393
AK 4395
AK 4396
So, if you're gonna stick with whatever chipset/pcb you've bought (and opamp output stage), you're gonna need to make sure you have the correct values.
My kit? -It came fitted with the 4396 IC & filter configuration for the 4393!!!!
So there you go George - yet another variable to add into the mix ! lol
-Andy-
Configuration management
Actually all this confusion is not too bad. I teach Project Management (specifically PRINCE2). A major part of that is Configuration Management, being able to deal with change consistently and managing the various configurations (in this case the board layouts, component versions, chip versions and so on). Clearly my friend Zoe_tsang has not got this implemented properly. So, it is more fun for us, and gives me a real-world example for my next class. Thanks to all involved. Enjoy
Actually all this confusion is not too bad. I teach Project Management (specifically PRINCE2). A major part of that is Configuration Management, being able to deal with change consistently and managing the various configurations (in this case the board layouts, component versions, chip versions and so on). Clearly my friend Zoe_tsang has not got this implemented properly. So, it is more fun for us, and gives me a real-world example for my next class. Thanks to all involved. Enjoy
Filter diff's
I refer to Clave's earlier observation:
I refer to Clave's earlier observation:
Ouch!
...So for the two DACs a different LPF is required!!!
Then I've checked the one of AK4395 (identical to AK4393 one) and AK4399 (different values from AK4393/95 and AK4396).
So this kit should have different LPF's resistors and caps for the two chips...
I've attached the two output stages and, since to me they're a Sallen-Key filter, two graphs that shows the difference (made with this calculator).
The AK4396 outstage is clearly more rolled-off...
Compatibility
So, although the 4395 and 4396 are considered to be "pin-compatible"... apart from voltage requirements, the filtering requirements appear to be unique to each device.
I wonder how this affects the many people who have been upgrading Behringer equipment by performing chip-swaps? In some cases they have gone for elaborate post-DAC circuitry, but if there is this difference I do not remember it being brought out in any of the upgrade discussions. This gets more and more mysterious. Could this be a case of The Emperor's Clothes?
So, although the 4395 and 4396 are considered to be "pin-compatible"... apart from voltage requirements, the filtering requirements appear to be unique to each device.
I wonder how this affects the many people who have been upgrading Behringer equipment by performing chip-swaps? In some cases they have gone for elaborate post-DAC circuitry, but if there is this difference I do not remember it being brought out in any of the upgrade discussions. This gets more and more mysterious. Could this be a case of The Emperor's Clothes?