Hello guys, and ladies....
I installed 5 of these kits with Dario's modification into a 19"rack, and sold it to a client (all 5 kits have 2 separate transformers (10 in total)).
The client is complaining that she hears a noise, and a sound around 250Hz. Since they are an institute which does musical and sound therapy, they know what what they are talking about.
I did not go to the client yet to measure (I am waiting for the Scopemeter to arrive from the USA).
What can that be? I know the output is not filtered (no exit capacitors), and I do not know if there are input capacitors on the sound processor she uses.
Since 250 Hz is not 50 Hz (like in mains inducted noise), and the 5-th order of 50 Hz should not be present, since it is DC powered, well filtered, the output cables are shielded etc.... (I even used a coaxial 75 ohm cable for the input).
Does anyone have an idea, or encountered this?
Haik
I installed 5 of these kits with Dario's modification into a 19"rack, and sold it to a client (all 5 kits have 2 separate transformers (10 in total)).
The client is complaining that she hears a noise, and a sound around 250Hz. Since they are an institute which does musical and sound therapy, they know what what they are talking about.
I did not go to the client yet to measure (I am waiting for the Scopemeter to arrive from the USA).
What can that be? I know the output is not filtered (no exit capacitors), and I do not know if there are input capacitors on the sound processor she uses.
Since 250 Hz is not 50 Hz (like in mains inducted noise), and the 5-th order of 50 Hz should not be present, since it is DC powered, well filtered, the output cables are shielded etc.... (I even used a coaxial 75 ohm cable for the input).
Does anyone have an idea, or encountered this?
Haik
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum and reading this huge thread now since a few days.
after spending hours of reading, i gathered a lot of information about this wonderful little dac.
Nevertheless, a few questions remain, regarding which kit to buy.
1. Planning to apply Dario's mod according to his BOM, i would like to know if it makes sense to buy the r-core transformer sold with the kit's? or are very cheap used ebay block-transformers for 2$/ a piece are good enough? or should i use toroidal?
2. Is the AK4396 a newer, or better version of the AK4393, or are there just small differences which are up to the users taste? Or is there a little consensus in this thread to prefer one over the other?
3. Would you advice me only to buy only the pcb with the soldered smd's and get all the parts inluding the BOM from different or suggested shops? or would you buy the kit version (assembled or unassembled?)? Maybe already assembled only to swap the BOM-parts? what are your suggestions?
4. I plan to install a toslink optical module. Would you suggest buying the one for 15 bucks already mentioned in this thread and is it worth the miney, or should i build one , as the components would be quite cheap? Also there already exists a how-to -thread in this forum.
5. There were some comments about Salas voltage reg. What is the andvantage of using such a thing?
sorry for asking you all those beginner-questions, but the thread is already huge and i just couldn't find answers to my questions. Further more i'm a diy beginner in the audio area, what it makes even harder to understand all the comments.
After spending two days just reading in this thread i'm looking forward now to get short answers to my questions to quickly proceed to the shopping basket ;-) to order my own dac kit.
Thank you in advance!
greetings knorst
I'm new to this forum and reading this huge thread now since a few days.
after spending hours of reading, i gathered a lot of information about this wonderful little dac.
Nevertheless, a few questions remain, regarding which kit to buy.
1. Planning to apply Dario's mod according to his BOM, i would like to know if it makes sense to buy the r-core transformer sold with the kit's? or are very cheap used ebay block-transformers for 2$/ a piece are good enough? or should i use toroidal?
2. Is the AK4396 a newer, or better version of the AK4393, or are there just small differences which are up to the users taste? Or is there a little consensus in this thread to prefer one over the other?
3. Would you advice me only to buy only the pcb with the soldered smd's and get all the parts inluding the BOM from different or suggested shops? or would you buy the kit version (assembled or unassembled?)? Maybe already assembled only to swap the BOM-parts? what are your suggestions?
4. I plan to install a toslink optical module. Would you suggest buying the one for 15 bucks already mentioned in this thread and is it worth the miney, or should i build one , as the components would be quite cheap? Also there already exists a how-to -thread in this forum.
5. There were some comments about Salas voltage reg. What is the andvantage of using such a thing?
sorry for asking you all those beginner-questions, but the thread is already huge and i just couldn't find answers to my questions. Further more i'm a diy beginner in the audio area, what it makes even harder to understand all the comments.
After spending two days just reading in this thread i'm looking forward now to get short answers to my questions to quickly proceed to the shopping basket ;-) to order my own dac kit.
Thank you in advance!
greetings knorst
I would suggest buying one already built and then mod it, since you are new to all this.
Finished 2496 (AK4396) CS8416 DAC With R-core Transformer+case 115V or 230V | eBay
You could also buy this and stuff it with Darios BOM and keep the original for comparison knowing you always have a working board.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-SMD-I...arts&hash=item2ec23606e7&_uhb=1#ht_3876wt_922
Finished 2496 (AK4396) CS8416 DAC With R-core Transformer+case 115V or 230V | eBay
You could also buy this and stuff it with Darios BOM and keep the original for comparison knowing you always have a working board.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-SMD-I...arts&hash=item2ec23606e7&_uhb=1#ht_3876wt_922
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Respond to Knorst
Hi Knorst,
Here’s my short answers, along with thread entry numbers if you want to backtrack and read more about each.
1. Erin and others discusses E-core vs F-core transformers [around post 435], and in theory, R-cores are less likely to produce EMI interference. Dario recommends the R-core transformer [e.g., at 1473]. Bob writes, “most of what I have read R-cores are the top choice for preamps and DACs, while toroids are best for power amps” [at 1983-1985ff]. Bob did an A-B comparison, and says the R-core won out [at 2002 ] – clearer sound, better dynamics.
2. The “mini-DAC 2496” was originally designed by evangelion1999 using the AK4393; the AK4396 version showed up later. It uses the same PCB board, just needs different low pass filtering (per the manufacturer’s spec sheets, and as shown per the BOM). See discussion along posts 12-26, regarding chip comparisons. Note also that a few DIY’ers also prefer another chip altogether, the AK4395 chip (e.g., Sendler at post 131, link to separate thread on the subject).
Reportedly, the AK4396 is a significant revision AK4393, based on both design and listening tests [see post 132]. As far as I can tell, there was no consensus reached, and members were encouraged to experiment and report. But since the AK4395 needs a different voltage, and thus requires quirky mods to the PCB board itself, it’s not been built much.
In general, I think most readers of this thread liked what they read about the AK4396 (e.g., roll-off characteristics [see posts 257-259], etc. and so have chosen the ’96 over the ’93.
3. Re: assembled or unassembled? I’d say either get both (for comparison) or go unassembled. For me, it is too much work to remove 80% of the components on the board – better to just start with a fresh board.
4. Re: toslink optical module. I’d say personal choice. I bought the one recommended.
5. Re: Salas voltage reg. The Salas voltage regulator is regarded as extremely good; so it is likely to be an improvement. At the same time, Dario put together a good design for this DAC. Both are based on the same principles (shunt regulator). [see post 1574]. So it comes down to how much money and effort you want to put into the PSU relative to the rest of the project.
Note (copied from an earlier discussion)...
"the AK4396 DAC sounds lean when brand new. It gains bass, richness and fullness in about 200 hours, so be patient. "
Hope this is helpful.
Hi Knorst,
Here’s my short answers, along with thread entry numbers if you want to backtrack and read more about each.
1. Erin and others discusses E-core vs F-core transformers [around post 435], and in theory, R-cores are less likely to produce EMI interference. Dario recommends the R-core transformer [e.g., at 1473]. Bob writes, “most of what I have read R-cores are the top choice for preamps and DACs, while toroids are best for power amps” [at 1983-1985ff]. Bob did an A-B comparison, and says the R-core won out [at 2002 ] – clearer sound, better dynamics.
2. The “mini-DAC 2496” was originally designed by evangelion1999 using the AK4393; the AK4396 version showed up later. It uses the same PCB board, just needs different low pass filtering (per the manufacturer’s spec sheets, and as shown per the BOM). See discussion along posts 12-26, regarding chip comparisons. Note also that a few DIY’ers also prefer another chip altogether, the AK4395 chip (e.g., Sendler at post 131, link to separate thread on the subject).
Reportedly, the AK4396 is a significant revision AK4393, based on both design and listening tests [see post 132]. As far as I can tell, there was no consensus reached, and members were encouraged to experiment and report. But since the AK4395 needs a different voltage, and thus requires quirky mods to the PCB board itself, it’s not been built much.
In general, I think most readers of this thread liked what they read about the AK4396 (e.g., roll-off characteristics [see posts 257-259], etc. and so have chosen the ’96 over the ’93.
3. Re: assembled or unassembled? I’d say either get both (for comparison) or go unassembled. For me, it is too much work to remove 80% of the components on the board – better to just start with a fresh board.
4. Re: toslink optical module. I’d say personal choice. I bought the one recommended.
5. Re: Salas voltage reg. The Salas voltage regulator is regarded as extremely good; so it is likely to be an improvement. At the same time, Dario put together a good design for this DAC. Both are based on the same principles (shunt regulator). [see post 1574]. So it comes down to how much money and effort you want to put into the PSU relative to the rest of the project.
Note (copied from an earlier discussion)...
"the AK4396 DAC sounds lean when brand new. It gains bass, richness and fullness in about 200 hours, so be patient. "
Hope this is helpful.
transformer wiring
Hey, I was wondering what wires to use for U.S. 115v on a CS8416+CS4398 DAC. I have a 30w transformer (pictured). The DAC has a three wire input on the left side and a two wire input on the right. what colors do I insert in each one? also what wires on the transformer go the power source? Thanks in advance.
Hey, I was wondering what wires to use for U.S. 115v on a CS8416+CS4398 DAC. I have a 30w transformer (pictured). The DAC has a three wire input on the left side and a two wire input on the right. what colors do I insert in each one? also what wires on the transformer go the power source? Thanks in advance.
Attachments
Hi guys,
Im awaiting arrival of my dac which i will be populating with Darios bom. Im anxious to hear how it sounds and i just want to know what you're impressions are in regards to how it makes music.
Have someone compared this to commercially available high end dacs? If so, how do they stack up against them..
Thanks guys
Im awaiting arrival of my dac which i will be populating with Darios bom. Im anxious to hear how it sounds and i just want to know what you're impressions are in regards to how it makes music.
Have someone compared this to commercially available high end dacs? If so, how do they stack up against them..
Thanks guys
Hi,
I've decided to bite on this DAC and here's what I'm proposing to do in the light of what I've read on this thread.
To buy a completed AK4396 but ask that the seller just solders the 2 ics and leave the rest to me - has anyone asked the same and if so what was the response?
My reason for buying the finished deal is that the cost of buying both a chassis and mains Tx as seperates just does'nt make economic sense.
I'd also like to buy a second blank PCB so I can easily compare an op-amp to resistor/cap o/put by changing the PCBs.
I fully appreciate that most PCBs don't like to messed with, hence the second PCB.
Somewhere on this thread I saw a YoutTube video on soldering ics but damned if I can find it now. I'm intrigued as to what looked like liquid flux that was being used and the large bit that was being used which surprised me - it's the same kind of bit I always use.
Secondly could someone kindly provide the link to Dario's final BOM.
Tubo - right near the beginning of this thread, Erin posted a comparison to W4S DAC 2.
Stuart
I've decided to bite on this DAC and here's what I'm proposing to do in the light of what I've read on this thread.
To buy a completed AK4396 but ask that the seller just solders the 2 ics and leave the rest to me - has anyone asked the same and if so what was the response?
My reason for buying the finished deal is that the cost of buying both a chassis and mains Tx as seperates just does'nt make economic sense.
I'd also like to buy a second blank PCB so I can easily compare an op-amp to resistor/cap o/put by changing the PCBs.
I fully appreciate that most PCBs don't like to messed with, hence the second PCB.
Somewhere on this thread I saw a YoutTube video on soldering ics but damned if I can find it now. I'm intrigued as to what looked like liquid flux that was being used and the large bit that was being used which surprised me - it's the same kind of bit I always use.
Secondly could someone kindly provide the link to Dario's final BOM.
Tubo - right near the beginning of this thread, Erin posted a comparison to W4S DAC 2.
Stuart
AK4396 is a voltage out dac (doesnt need an IV stage) with switched capacitor outputs, unless you want a low pass filter on the output, you dont really need anything except maybe a buffer depending on the next stage (preamp, amp etc). its output is centered on ground, doesnt need any AC coupling caps either
Seller along1986090 on ebay sells both of them. Assembled, or not assembled. If you cannot solder the SMD's, ask him, he will do it for free.
I have good experience with him. I already bought 6 kit's from him, and one is now broken (short circuit on the digital side). Without any questions, he will send me a new one. He asked to send the broken one back, but sending to China by even regular mail, was more expensive than buying a new one. He said no problem, you do not need to send it back then....
Good service.
I have good experience with him. I already bought 6 kit's from him, and one is now broken (short circuit on the digital side). Without any questions, he will send me a new one. He asked to send the broken one back, but sending to China by even regular mail, was more expensive than buying a new one. He said no problem, you do not need to send it back then....
Good service.
I just want to warn everybody not to buy from rclithiumpolymer a seller on ebay. I Ordered eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d?r back in august , he then waited 3 weeks before posting, i emailed to ask why he said he is waiting for new stock, (webpage said he had more than ten in stock) then 4 weeks later still no parcel, Hong Kong post Offce tracking number :RA195799855HK, Aust post office says not arrived. I payed with paypal but they could not help with a resolution because he supplied a tracking number. So now i am left with his email saying that he has lodged an enquiry with hong kong post office, so i wont hold my breath.
qusp,
the feed will be to my Bada PH32 valve/pre/mosfet o/put. I have to use the lowest gain position in my Edwards MC3 phono stage. It has lots of op-amps and sounds wonderfully detailed, so much for opinions on op-amps - does'nt it all come down to design and implementation?
I've seen so many conflicting accounts of what is best (in sound terms) that I shall try 1st, o/put directly from the chip, 2nd via op-amp (not the supplied one) 3rd by cap with and without resistor and maybe via o/put txs but this last only if totally unsatisfied with the other options.
BTW - I was surprised that carbon Rs are rec. in the signal path. I bought a Bada PH12 h/amp partly because it came out top in a Head-fi shoot out and partly because I was intrigued at how a hybrid amp would sound being a valve man then. I was completely underwhelmed and set about trying to improve the sound. Apart from getting rid of all Solen and Wima caps I shunted the Alps blue pot with Z foils - what a difference. I then changed all the signal path Rs with Z foils. That and cap changes made it into a really good h/amp - I've had it for 6 years now and is game over.
Just for an experiment I replaced Z foils in just one position with various other Rs - AN Tants/Riken/Kiwame/Takman and bog standard metal film from Maplins - all impacted on the sound negatively, detail lost, fuzzy - just plain awful, Ironically the Maplins metal film were the best of a bad bunch.
If anyone wants to try these do not buy from Chalfont in the UK - they have dropped their prices a little but are still over 200% more expensive than buying from Texas Components, for anyone who wants to know why, PM me because the answer is not relevant to this forum.
I cannot rec. the Z foils highly enough - they can be summed up in one word - transparent. If I do use the op-amp o/put route I will definately use these.
bcmbob/haik - many thanks both of you.
I'd also like to say that it's great to have a thread that has no bitching or trolls which has ruined so many threads on so many forums.
the feed will be to my Bada PH32 valve/pre/mosfet o/put. I have to use the lowest gain position in my Edwards MC3 phono stage. It has lots of op-amps and sounds wonderfully detailed, so much for opinions on op-amps - does'nt it all come down to design and implementation?
I've seen so many conflicting accounts of what is best (in sound terms) that I shall try 1st, o/put directly from the chip, 2nd via op-amp (not the supplied one) 3rd by cap with and without resistor and maybe via o/put txs but this last only if totally unsatisfied with the other options.
BTW - I was surprised that carbon Rs are rec. in the signal path. I bought a Bada PH12 h/amp partly because it came out top in a Head-fi shoot out and partly because I was intrigued at how a hybrid amp would sound being a valve man then. I was completely underwhelmed and set about trying to improve the sound. Apart from getting rid of all Solen and Wima caps I shunted the Alps blue pot with Z foils - what a difference. I then changed all the signal path Rs with Z foils. That and cap changes made it into a really good h/amp - I've had it for 6 years now and is game over.
Just for an experiment I replaced Z foils in just one position with various other Rs - AN Tants/Riken/Kiwame/Takman and bog standard metal film from Maplins - all impacted on the sound negatively, detail lost, fuzzy - just plain awful, Ironically the Maplins metal film were the best of a bad bunch.
If anyone wants to try these do not buy from Chalfont in the UK - they have dropped their prices a little but are still over 200% more expensive than buying from Texas Components, for anyone who wants to know why, PM me because the answer is not relevant to this forum.
I cannot rec. the Z foils highly enough - they can be summed up in one word - transparent. If I do use the op-amp o/put route I will definately use these.
bcmbob/haik - many thanks both of you.
I'd also like to say that it's great to have a thread that has no bitching or trolls which has ruined so many threads on so many forums.
There are many inferences that Head-Fi allows positive reviews and comments of its sponsors products and bans people who have alternate opinions of the product(s) being reviewed. See the links below.....
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=banned+from+head+fi
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html
http://bannedfromheadfi.blogspot.com.au/
http://www.totallydubbed.net/being-banned-at-head-fi-by-jude-mansilla/
Make up your own mind...
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I realise that your comment was directed at qusp, but I hope you dont mind me commenting.
Your comment on the sound is very appreciated. trying things for yourself is the best way to find out what suits your ears and your system. I agree that z-foil is transparent sounding but what I don't like about them is that I find them to sound sterile. My preference is for Welwyn W21 wire-wound resistors. Have you ever tried these?
There are less here but it still occasionally happens sadly.
I don't think we have heard any complaints about the sound yet... but there could always be a first
Your comment on the sound is very appreciated. trying things for yourself is the best way to find out what suits your ears and your system. I agree that z-foil is transparent sounding but what I don't like about them is that I find them to sound sterile. My preference is for Welwyn W21 wire-wound resistors. Have you ever tried these?
There are less here but it still occasionally happens sadly.