Kolby,
I agree, no controversy at all. You obviously have experience with components that are new to me and I'm learning, so please keep sharing. Those Rhopoint resistors look interesting. I used to be negative about wirewound resistors until I tried some Mills wirewound that sound quite nice in a different project.
Dario,
I see that R101, R201 are specified at 1/2 watt in the BOM, but the Caddock are rated at 15 watts. Is the 1/2 watt enough for the circuit?
Jac
I agree, no controversy at all. You obviously have experience with components that are new to me and I'm learning, so please keep sharing. Those Rhopoint resistors look interesting. I used to be negative about wirewound resistors until I tried some Mills wirewound that sound quite nice in a different project.
Dario,
I see that R101, R201 are specified at 1/2 watt in the BOM, but the Caddock are rated at 15 watts. Is the 1/2 watt enough for the circuit?
Jac
Dario,
The Rhopoint resistors I use are the ones I linked to: the 8G16D types , radial 0,1% 0,33W wirewound. The ones in your pic. are GG102 radial types and beside this:
Each resistor undergoes multiple tests during manufacture including accelerated ageing and thermal shock procedure.
they are essentially the same, as far as I know.
lehmanhill,
The R101/102 has 1,25V across (lm317 makes sure this is the case) so with 50 Ohms the power loss in these resistors are 1,25X1,25/50 = 0,03125Watts.
Well, I am an old fart
and I have been in the high end business for many many years and even though I completely agree with what Harry Pearson (founder of The Absolut Sound) said in 1973: There is one objective goal for all audiophiles, Tha Absolute Sound, eg. the sound of the unamplified music, meaning if we had perfect source material, perfect playback devices and were listening to perfect loudspeakers in perfect rooms, we would all agree witch amplifire was the perfect one...
This not being the case, there is a big difference between the compromisses each of us prefer, depending on, as example, what speakers/room we have and what kind of music we listen to.
A person that listen in a small room close to relatively small speakers or even headphones, tend to have other preferences than a person listening in a large room a relatively long distance from big loudspeakers. And if the preffered music is small scale jazz or folk the preferences are different from a person listening foremost to big orchestral work.
It seamed to me, after reading a lot of the threads concerning this My-Ref amp., that there is sort of a consensus of what to listen for, that I did not want to disturb or question, therefore my remarks on controversy.
Koldby
The Rhopoint resistors I use are the ones I linked to: the 8G16D types , radial 0,1% 0,33W wirewound. The ones in your pic. are GG102 radial types and beside this:
Each resistor undergoes multiple tests during manufacture including accelerated ageing and thermal shock procedure.
they are essentially the same, as far as I know.
lehmanhill,
The R101/102 has 1,25V across (lm317 makes sure this is the case) so with 50 Ohms the power loss in these resistors are 1,25X1,25/50 = 0,03125Watts.
Well, I am an old fart
and I have been in the high end business for many many years and even though I completely agree with what Harry Pearson (founder of The Absolut Sound) said in 1973: There is one objective goal for all audiophiles, Tha Absolute Sound, eg. the sound of the unamplified music, meaning if we had perfect source material, perfect playback devices and were listening to perfect loudspeakers in perfect rooms, we would all agree witch amplifire was the perfect one...This not being the case, there is a big difference between the compromisses each of us prefer, depending on, as example, what speakers/room we have and what kind of music we listen to.
A person that listen in a small room close to relatively small speakers or even headphones, tend to have other preferences than a person listening in a large room a relatively long distance from big loudspeakers. And if the preffered music is small scale jazz or folk the preferences are different from a person listening foremost to big orchestral work.
It seamed to me, after reading a lot of the threads concerning this My-Ref amp., that there is sort of a consensus of what to listen for, that I did not want to disturb or question, therefore my remarks on controversy.
Koldby
Sure, as Koldby already calculated for you.
Fine, I can eventually order them from Distrelec, on the contrary I didn't find a source for GG102s.
They're not cheap, though... over 2X Vs the already costly Caddocks!
I would not be so sure about it... But since you heard an improvement using the 8G16Ds this is not the point...
It seamed to me, after reading a lot of the threads concerning this My-Ref amp., that there is sort of a consensus of what to listen for, that I did not want to disturb or question, therefore my remarks on controversy.
Absolutely not, again, every contribution is appreciated and welcome
Ok let me try to give a couple of examples on what I hear, with or without the SAL caps.
Linn records Barb. Jung: Grain of sand,I´ll be your baby tonight:
With SAL:
More room more focus less sibiliance on her voice (SSS) and easier to hear the echo machine on the sss´s.
Without SAL:
More blurred image, less room maybe a little more bass.
Atterberg Symph. for cello and orchestra Truls Mørk BIS records.
With SAL:
Extremely big and well defined room. Good separation of instruments.
Without:
A softer presentation with less defined room and ambience. Darker tonal character.
Charles Ives: Symf 1&4 Chicago Symf.and chorus Tilson Thomas SONY:Nearer my god to thee.
With:
Organ clearly backstage. Good separtion of members i choir. Deep bass better(!) defined.
Without:
Forshortened depth, less separation in choir a little "hole in the middle effect".
Liszt Piano concert. Byron Janis Mercury living presence: Falla: El Sombrerode tre Picos.
With:
Very dynamic and involving. Easy to hear the single notes.
Without:
Broader piano, some of the notes seams to come from a higher plane than others. The blurring effect actually in the cresendos overpowers my ears. Will cause earfatique in the long run.
All this is of cause my view and other can have other preferences. If anybody wants, you can listen to the examples and hear if you hear the same things.
Koldby
The tonal charater of the piano is almost identical a little softer (blurring?) maybe.
Linn records Barb. Jung: Grain of sand,I´ll be your baby tonight:
With SAL:
More room more focus less sibiliance on her voice (SSS) and easier to hear the echo machine on the sss´s.
Without SAL:
More blurred image, less room maybe a little more bass.
Atterberg Symph. for cello and orchestra Truls Mørk BIS records.
With SAL:
Extremely big and well defined room. Good separation of instruments.
Without:
A softer presentation with less defined room and ambience. Darker tonal character.
Charles Ives: Symf 1&4 Chicago Symf.and chorus Tilson Thomas SONY:Nearer my god to thee.
With:
Organ clearly backstage. Good separtion of members i choir. Deep bass better(!) defined.
Without:
Forshortened depth, less separation in choir a little "hole in the middle effect".
Liszt Piano concert. Byron Janis Mercury living presence: Falla: El Sombrerode tre Picos.
With:
Very dynamic and involving. Easy to hear the single notes.
Without:
Broader piano, some of the notes seams to come from a higher plane than others. The blurring effect actually in the cresendos overpowers my ears. Will cause earfatique in the long run.
All this is of cause my view and other can have other preferences. If anybody wants, you can listen to the examples and hear if you hear the same things.
Koldby
The tonal charater of the piano is almost identical a little softer (blurring?) maybe.
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That's great stuff Koldby. Those subjective and personal reports hopefully will encourage others to take the time to "tune-in" their builds to get the most from any specific combination of system components. It's been my experience that various music styles almost require more that a single system. Finding the configuration that covers the most bases for each individual is clearly a challenge - but well worth the time and cost. Builders should be encouraged to buy and install a few of those sockets to hear differences for themselves.
bcmbob
Thanks for the comment.
And thak you for your "freindly challenge" in "the very best amplifier I have ever heard" thread!
That is the reason, why I now enjoy this extrodinary amplifier. There are still areas where the GM clone beats My_Ref, but the gab is closing and My_ref betters the GM in some very crusial areas IMHO.
I have been too busy playing around with the My_ref to do the same trick with socets and component optimization in the GM.
Interesting race between those two!
Koldby
Thanks for the comment.
And thak you for your "freindly challenge" in "the very best amplifier I have ever heard" thread!
That is the reason, why I now enjoy this extrodinary amplifier. There are still areas where the GM clone beats My_Ref, but the gab is closing and My_ref betters the GM in some very crusial areas IMHO.
I have been too busy playing around with the My_ref to do the same trick with socets and component optimization in the GM.
Interesting race between those two!
Koldby
Here is a little more on my take on "The Best Amp" and "Tuning. As a musician I learned I was gifted with something called "relative pitch". Essentially, that means I can perceive and/or recreate accurate tonal matching. If someone plays middle C on a piano I can sing the octaves accurately and tell if all the other notes on the keyboard are in tune. Those with "Absolute/Perfect Pitch" can naturally create exact frequencies without the need of a reference. I think my pitch abilities are still mostly intact, but at my age I have found my ability to hear much above 15,000 MHz is lessening. I have a friend who has some gaps around 800 and 1200. (That's what he gets for listen to all the Rock )
For many years I had a job that required a lot of driving. I have never been a big fan of constant AC and more often than not kept the driver's side window cracked open when the temps were not at extremes. The obvious cost of that was a slight permanent imbalance in the sensitivity in my left ear - not much, but at times I need to compensate.
When I listen today I don't perceive any loss or compression, but I suspect the combination of caps, resistors, wires - everything that sounds accurate to me - might sound overly bright and top heavy to different and younger ears.
Dario and others have done marvelous things in the technical/scientific development of modern amps. I stand in awe and appreciation of their efforts and where we are now. It's obvious I feel the FE can outperform a wide selection of both commercial and DIY designs. I'm simply suggesting and encouraging that given the fact that we are "building" these little gems, we take the time to do some experimentation beyond general assembly. Only then can we be not so concerned with "The Best" and discover what sounds the best in each builders system, setting and listening abilities.
) For many years I had a job that required a lot of driving. I have never been a big fan of constant AC and more often than not kept the driver's side window cracked open when the temps were not at extremes. The obvious cost of that was a slight permanent imbalance in the sensitivity in my left ear - not much, but at times I need to compensate.
When I listen today I don't perceive any loss or compression, but I suspect the combination of caps, resistors, wires - everything that sounds accurate to me - might sound overly bright and top heavy to different and younger ears.
Dario and others have done marvelous things in the technical/scientific development of modern amps. I stand in awe and appreciation of their efforts and where we are now. It's obvious I feel the FE can outperform a wide selection of both commercial and DIY designs. I'm simply suggesting and encouraging that given the fact that we are "building" these little gems, we take the time to do some experimentation beyond general assembly. Only then can we be not so concerned with "The Best" and discover what sounds the best in each builders system, setting and listening abilities.
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Finally got one FE built, playing right now. Worked perfectly at first power on, with no noise of any kind. Offset was initially 58mV, down to 31mV after a couple hours of play. That concerns me somewhat, as my RevC amp measures 1.4mV.
I don't understand why an amp that uses the same active devices has far more offset than a similar design. Is it the dual rectifiers? If so, can one be disconnected, and at what sonic penalty?
Right now, comparing the FE to the RevC, I hear more detail, clarity of individual instruments. Hard to tell about depth and image with unequal channels. Tonality of FE might be a bit sharper, but not really bright as far as I can tell. Will play it for a few hours and report again.
Using True Copper at C13, BG Std at C9, most TH caps are styrene or silver mica, R12 is naked Vishay Z-foil TH soldered to SMD pads, R10 is Shinkoh tant. Balance of parts is mostly configured to premium BOM.
Peace,
Tom E
I don't understand why an amp that uses the same active devices has far more offset than a similar design. Is it the dual rectifiers? If so, can one be disconnected, and at what sonic penalty?
Right now, comparing the FE to the RevC, I hear more detail, clarity of individual instruments. Hard to tell about depth and image with unequal channels. Tonality of FE might be a bit sharper, but not really bright as far as I can tell. Will play it for a few hours and report again.
Using True Copper at C13, BG Std at C9, most TH caps are styrene or silver mica, R12 is naked Vishay Z-foil TH soldered to SMD pads, R10 is Shinkoh tant. Balance of parts is mostly configured to premium BOM.
Peace,
Tom E
Fine
Don't worry, it will lower more to less than 10mV levels, from what I've understood is related to flux under SMD parts, did you clean boards?
No, the dual rectifier have nothing to do with it.
You can't simply disconnect one of the bridges but using jumpers and desoldering some diodes you can make them work with a single bridge.
The price, obviuosly, is performance, you will loose some focus and clarity.
BTW, as I've said, it has nothing to do with DC offset.
I'll read your reports with great interest.
I didn't liked Shinkoh effect on R10, strange, loose bass and a bit closed.
Let us know if you will experiment.
Fantastic Tom. I also will be looking forward to your coming messages. It's good that you like what you hear even though it apparently didn't knock your socks off. With the correct parts selection and a matching build on the other channel, that may just happen. Time is an important element as you know. My RC builds continued to sharpen and gel for months after the assembly was completed.
Really looking forward to developments and reports.
With the correct parts selection and a matching build on the other channel, that may just happen. Time is an important element as you know. My RC builds continued to sharpen and gel for months after the assembly was completed.Really looking forward to developments and reports.
Off Topic - Sort of
Does anyone have any experience with FKP4 instead of FKP3? For another project, I'm thinking about 1 uF caps of a smaller size than the big axial caps we use for C13. The cap is in the signal path and FKP3 isn't available as 1 uF. The FKP4 is still metal foil, but of a different construction. Other caps under consideration are MKP10 and Vishay Roderstein MKP1840. Any thoughts?
Jac
Does anyone have any experience with FKP4 instead of FKP3? For another project, I'm thinking about 1 uF caps of a smaller size than the big axial caps we use for C13. The cap is in the signal path and FKP3 isn't available as 1 uF. The FKP4 is still metal foil, but of a different construction. Other caps under consideration are MKP10 and Vishay Roderstein MKP1840. Any thoughts?
Jac
Like Jac, though I'm off on another project for a while - and my FEs are indisposed at the moment - I have some good news. I could post this on the other thread, but I think this is a good spot. It's "All In The Family"
I have been listening to Siva's (linuxguru) MyRef V1.3 builds with his LF-0 module for the past few days. I love the FE, but this is one sweet sounding pair of amps. Sometimes I feel a little sad that we might forget where we came from and the fantastic collective efforts that got us here.
Just want to give a tip of the fedora to Siva, Uriah, Tom, Andrew (even though he loves to argue
) and other "Elders Of The MyRef Family" for this marvelous discovery.
If anyone is watching and not yet ready to take on Dario's FE, you might want to consider a PM to Siva for another great design. I'm sure even Dario would smile at that.
I have been listening to Siva's (linuxguru) MyRef V1.3 builds with his LF-0 module for the past few days. I love the FE, but this is one sweet sounding pair of amps. Sometimes I feel a little sad that we might forget where we came from and the fantastic collective efforts that got us here.
Just want to give a tip of the fedora to Siva, Uriah, Tom, Andrew (even though he loves to argue
) and other "Elders Of The MyRef Family" for this marvelous discovery. If anyone is watching and not yet ready to take on Dario's FE, you might want to consider a PM to Siva for another great design. I'm sure even Dario would smile at that.
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I have been listening to Siva's (linuxguru) MyRef V1.3 builds with his LF-0 module for the past few days. I love the FE, but this is one sweet sounding pair of amps. Sometimes I feel a little sad that we might forget where we came from and the fantastic collective efforts that got us here.
Just want to give a tip of the fedora to Siva, Uriah, Tom, Andrew (even though he loves to argue
If anyone is watching and not yet ready to take on Dario's FE, you might want to consider a PM to Siva for another great design. I'm sure even Dario would smile at that.
Bob, thanks for the praise!
The most recent LF module is the LF07, which also accepts an LM318m SOIC-8 opamp and plugs into any MyRef with a DIP8 socket. The main differences from the LF01 are the output stage (a Class-A Diamond Cascode, a diamond-like buffer) and implementation (fully SMD). Audible sonics in a Rev C are similar to the LF01, but may be a bit drier and more detailed. Thanks to an idea for a mod from struth@diyaudio (Kevin O'Connor), the upper mids and highs are smooth as silk.
I wonder if Dario or anybody else will consider a respin request for an FE board with a DIP8 socket - it will allow the use of alternative opamp modules, including the possibility of fully-discrete alternatives in the future. If somebody does the respin, please also allow component flexibility for C4 - 15mm and 22.5mm pitch allows a lot of premium film/foil caps like the FKP3 (a definite improvement in a Rev C).
For C1/C2, I'm still waiting for 100V-rated Muse KZs, but I've tried 100V-rated Elna RE3, which sound very good there. I'm guessing that any 100V cap will be better than a 50V cap of the same series at that location, due to improved tan-delta.
(My current side distraction/obsession is a Cambridge Audio Azur 540D DVD player, in which I've upgraded the analog signal path for the front L&R channels with LM6172 and AD8022 opamps, Sanyo Oscons, Philips P100 ceramics, Wima MKP4s, Panasonic ECQ-Es and PRP resistors. Also upgraded the SMPS to all-Japanese professional-grade electrolytics. The upgrades make this already sweet-sounding CD/DVD-A source even more smooth and detailed. It's still work in progress - I'll post the details later in the digital sources forum.)
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I'm sure even Dario would smile at that.
Every My_Ref built is a good thing
I think that the use of SMD parts is one of the advantages (soundwise) of the FE...
We will see...
22.5 ???
The added inductance due to a so long LS would probably make C4 useless...
Also here incredible results.
(...)
The noisefloor is around -108dB.
Actually no trace of harmonic distortion products
One request... do you think it's possible to repeat the measure without C102/C202?
I'm curious to see if they have a measurable effect.