Just a short notice from me.
I just had My-Ref on the measuring table.
Also here incredible results.
There are 6 dB pr. division.
Output from My-Ref JUST under clipping.
The noisefloor is around -108dB.
Actually no trace of harmonic distortion products
Fantastic. I tried earlier with my poor measurement equipment and convinced myself that I was mainly measuring the noise in my equipment. I'm glad you have good measurement equipment and thank you for sharing.
I managed to lower the noisefloor in my measuring system, wich is a computer with M-audio Revolution soundcard and Visual Analyzer software (free!)
The noise floor is now -114 dB and I can now see, that the soundcard has some distotion products around -102 dB see the first pic.
This is a direct connection from output of soundcard to input.
The next picture is the output from My-Ref just before clipping with C101/102 and the last without.
The pictures are not that good, but as I see it there is no difference between the results except som noise over 20 Khz when the My_ref is in the circuit, but this could probably come from the extra wires and the attenuator nessesary to reduce the input to the soundcard when the signal has been amplified by the My_ref.
The noise floor is now -114 dB and I can now see, that the soundcard has some distotion products around -102 dB see the first pic.
This is a direct connection from output of soundcard to input.
The next picture is the output from My-Ref just before clipping with C101/102 and the last without.
The pictures are not that good, but as I see it there is no difference between the results except som noise over 20 Khz when the My_ref is in the circuit, but this could probably come from the extra wires and the attenuator nessesary to reduce the input to the soundcard when the signal has been amplified by the My_ref.
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The battle of the exotics
In the last couple of days, I have tried differnet capacitors for C13.
First pic are all the caps.
Then each cap.
My personal ractions to these caps are:
ERO mkp:
Flat image and a little shrilly. Lifeless bass - a no go.
Russian Teflon:
Strange coloration and not very transparent (I had high hopes for this actually). Thin bass. - a no go.
K 75-10:
Very warm and with a big room.Loose in the bass. Not that good seperation and loss of details and transparancy, but a nice presentation.
K 40y-9:
More details than K 75-10 and better separation. Better bass , but still on the soft side Still on the warm side with a broad pensel like presentation.
K 71-4:
Very transparent and nice tonal character, even though a triffle cold sounding. Good depth and separation. High frequencies now comes better through and fast transients are rendered nicely.
T(obias)J(jensen) paper in oil:
This was the big surprise..A little warmer and a little softer in the bass than K 71-4 and with almost the same high frequency detailing and transparency as that.
Difficult to choose between the last two, as they are both very good.
IMHO the best capacitor still is no capacitor, though.
More transparancy, better separation and the best bassdefinition.
In the last couple of days, I have tried differnet capacitors for C13.
First pic are all the caps.
Then each cap.
My personal ractions to these caps are:
ERO mkp:
Flat image and a little shrilly. Lifeless bass - a no go.
Russian Teflon:
Strange coloration and not very transparent (I had high hopes for this actually). Thin bass. - a no go.
K 75-10:
Very warm and with a big room.Loose in the bass. Not that good seperation and loss of details and transparancy, but a nice presentation.
K 40y-9:
More details than K 75-10 and better separation. Better bass , but still on the soft side Still on the warm side with a broad pensel like presentation.
K 71-4:
Very transparent and nice tonal character, even though a triffle cold sounding. Good depth and separation. High frequencies now comes better through and fast transients are rendered nicely.
T(obias)J(jensen) paper in oil:
This was the big surprise..A little warmer and a little softer in the bass than K 71-4 and with almost the same high frequency detailing and transparency as that.
Difficult to choose between the last two, as they are both very good.
IMHO the best capacitor still is no capacitor, though.
More transparancy, better separation and the best bassdefinition.
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That's great and very useful - thanks. I don't know what the availability is there, but two items are not included in the test group. The Audyns and the Mundorfs (some believe they are the same thing with different branding) get high praise from many, and I wonder if you have or are considering trying any of them.
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I also had a go on C9.
This is where I think the biggest improvements could be..
I only had a Elma RJH to try:
Smoother and cleaner than the Nichicon FG - more musical BUT at the expence of transients and a too dark overall sound.
Very hard to choose between these two compromises.
I really hope the BG will solve this!!
As a substitute for C4 (MKP 10) I tried an acrylic SMD 1uF , wich had been good as decoupling the TDA1541 DAC. Arrghh!
MKP 10 went in again.
Then there was the two FKP2 C30 and C32. The differences are not big, but:
First i tried some russian Silver Mica, but they were cold and shrilly and thin.
The some russian Teflon, but it was the same strange (not as pronounced) coloration as when used as C13.
I also had some ERO KP1838 (same as KP1834 but axials) and although they were not the correct values (100pF and 1,5nF) they went in.
No stability problems and I can understand why Dario likes these!!
They are natural warmeness with no loss of details and a very good spatial presentation.
I had the 1,5 nF as a Suflex SUF710 (these were the ones I used in the Tube riaas I manufactored in the ´80 before I had to switch to ERO KP1838) and this is as good if not maybe the smallest amunt better than the ERO.
I found some Suflex 1nF (probably not the SUF710) on E-bay and will try them and report back.
End of a long story for now
Koldby
This is where I think the biggest improvements could be..
I only had a Elma RJH to try:
Smoother and cleaner than the Nichicon FG - more musical BUT at the expence of transients and a too dark overall sound.
Very hard to choose between these two compromises.
I really hope the BG will solve this!!
As a substitute for C4 (MKP 10) I tried an acrylic SMD 1uF , wich had been good as decoupling the TDA1541 DAC. Arrghh!
MKP 10 went in again.
Then there was the two FKP2 C30 and C32. The differences are not big, but:
First i tried some russian Silver Mica, but they were cold and shrilly and thin.
The some russian Teflon, but it was the same strange (not as pronounced) coloration as when used as C13.
I also had some ERO KP1838 (same as KP1834 but axials) and although they were not the correct values (100pF and 1,5nF) they went in.
No stability problems and I can understand why Dario likes these!!
They are natural warmeness with no loss of details and a very good spatial presentation.
I had the 1,5 nF as a Suflex SUF710 (these were the ones I used in the Tube riaas I manufactored in the ´80 before I had to switch to ERO KP1838) and this is as good if not maybe the smallest amunt better than the ERO.
I found some Suflex 1nF (probably not the SUF710) on E-bay and will try them and report back.
End of a long story for now
Koldby
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Sorry, but my system is not better than this. Probably the noisy computer. For calrity I chose to display from 200 Hz up..
But then again -108dB peaks is not "very high" in my view and the harmonic distortion from the soundcard is still the dominat peaks. It still tells , even for a cheap and dirty setup like this, a story of an amplifier with VERY good specifications. All the other amplifiers I have had, having potential of being great amplifiers, have had order of magnitute higher distortion..
Koldby
Thanks for the additional measuring
So, at this resolution, it seem the LM318 PSRR is high enough to avoid C102/C202, fine...
Obviously a more precise measure could change things and soundwise it could be different.
I've found something in he mailbox this morning...
K 71-4:
Very transparent and nice tonal character, even though a triffle cold sounding. Good depth and separation. High frequencies now comes better through and fast transients are rendered nicely.
(...)
IMHO the best capacitor still is no capacitor, though.
More transparancy, better separation and the best bassdefinition.
Obviously best cap is no cap...
Your description of the K71-4 is really similar to mine.
Did you try them on both directions?
Those 'some' are completely WRONG, IMHO.
Audyns and Mundorf have a so different sound signature...
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another c13 option
In a previous post I compared the k71-4 to the audyn plus caps and each seemed to have good qualities in one area and lacked in another. The true coppers seemed to have the best of both worlds and I was very pleased. However I received a pair of jantzen silver z caps and have a new favorite.
I have been comparing the audyn true coppers against the jantzen silver z for a couple weeks with a variety of music and have found them both to be quite nice, but the jantzens are winning for several reasons. First and foremost is detail. The TCs are very detailed and I never felt that I was missing any of the music program while listening until I swapped in the silver Zs. The sounds of hands clapping, strings being plucked, horns being played is night and day different. The feeling of being in the room with musician is real with the silver Zs. Every recording since swapping these in has revealed more detail. Aside from the sound these caps are smaller than any of the others I have tried and should be easier to fit on the boards. Also they are easy to get in the US and are much less expensive than the TCs. I give them two thumbs up!
In a previous post I compared the k71-4 to the audyn plus caps and each seemed to have good qualities in one area and lacked in another. The true coppers seemed to have the best of both worlds and I was very pleased. However I received a pair of jantzen silver z caps and have a new favorite.
I have been comparing the audyn true coppers against the jantzen silver z for a couple weeks with a variety of music and have found them both to be quite nice, but the jantzens are winning for several reasons. First and foremost is detail. The TCs are very detailed and I never felt that I was missing any of the music program while listening until I swapped in the silver Zs. The sounds of hands clapping, strings being plucked, horns being played is night and day different. The feeling of being in the room with musician is real with the silver Zs. Every recording since swapping these in has revealed more detail. Aside from the sound these caps are smaller than any of the others I have tried and should be easier to fit on the boards. Also they are easy to get in the US and are much less expensive than the TCs. I give them two thumbs up!
Jantzen Silver I must try!
I had some spare time , so I tried the direction trick, and I´ll be damned there is a difference (K71-4).
Not much but it is there.
To my ears when the text on the caps is the same direction as the 1uF text on the pcb, they are right.
The other direction tend to be a little harsh and upfront. Has some sort of ear fatgueing effect.
Hmm..
Koldby
I had some spare time , so I tried the direction trick, and I´ll be damned there is a difference (K71-4).
Not much but it is there.
To my ears when the text on the caps is the same direction as the 1uF text on the pcb, they are right.
The other direction tend to be a little harsh and upfront. Has some sort of ear fatgueing effect.
Hmm..
Koldby
Oupps
100pF is not enough for C32.
Of some silly reason I changed C12 to 100 pF instead of C32.
100 pF as C32 results in about 100 mV swing at the output...
Sorry folks - my bad
Koldby
Can you please tell us what "100 mV swing" means? Is that DC offset?
Re C13: If all you want is more detail, there are caps that will provide that, but at the expense of other sonic attributes. Don't focus on one aspect of the sound and ignore all others.
Re Mundorf/Audyn: I have not seen anyone stating they're the same product. Please let us know where you learned this, or quit spreading BS. If they do use the same manufacturing facility (no big deal), they certainly do not share design philosophy. As Dario states, the construction and sound of their products is not at all similar.
Dario, what are the new 10uF caps for? I assume the 50 ohm resistors are R101/201.
Peace,
Tom E
Tom, let me expand upon my impressions of the Jantzen caps. First the TCs seem to be regarded in this and the associated threads as the best or maybe reference cap for this project. Not to say there are not better caps out there with skys the limit pricing, but rather what has been focused on in these threads. Having said that It seems their qualities seem to be the baseline of sonic performance. With the TCs I have been listening to various CDs for several weeks usually the same ones in a rotation. I almost always listen at the same volume level. I feel like I have come to know what to expect sonically from these discs.
When I swapped out the TCs for the Jantzens I immediatly noticed a difference. To put it simply the jantzens to my ears can do everything the True coppers can do and more. I did not feel there was any compromise going from the TCs to the silver Zs. Far from it. Now as far as detail goes I am simply talking about the sound of the amp as a whole. To me more detail is the what seperates good amp from bad amps. Detail covers soundstage, seperation, emotion the list goes on and on. So the detail that is present with the Jantzens is what I would think no cap at c13 would sound like, or at least as close as I have gotten without fear of stray DC. If I hear sounds with these caps through this amp that are the same as the sounds I hear in person from a physicall source, eg hands clapping, then it tells me several things. first is these sounds are present in the source material. Second is I have found an element that allows more or all of the program material to pass through the front end of the amp and be amplified. Third any other element of similar construction and value that does not let this program material pass through is a filter and an inferior element.
I think the best quality of this amp is its detail. Its ability to provide a natural soundstage. Its ability to be loud and not have overbearing feel, but a natural feel, more like a live performance. The sound does not blend together like my audiosector amp, These caps do not add anything to this amp, they just take less away which in this situation you get more
P.S. I am really not trying to start another cap arguement....just try them you will be pleased.
When I swapped out the TCs for the Jantzens I immediatly noticed a difference. To put it simply the jantzens to my ears can do everything the True coppers can do and more. I did not feel there was any compromise going from the TCs to the silver Zs. Far from it. Now as far as detail goes I am simply talking about the sound of the amp as a whole. To me more detail is the what seperates good amp from bad amps. Detail covers soundstage, seperation, emotion the list goes on and on. So the detail that is present with the Jantzens is what I would think no cap at c13 would sound like, or at least as close as I have gotten without fear of stray DC. If I hear sounds with these caps through this amp that are the same as the sounds I hear in person from a physicall source, eg hands clapping, then it tells me several things. first is these sounds are present in the source material. Second is I have found an element that allows more or all of the program material to pass through the front end of the amp and be amplified. Third any other element of similar construction and value that does not let this program material pass through is a filter and an inferior element.
I think the best quality of this amp is its detail. Its ability to provide a natural soundstage. Its ability to be loud and not have overbearing feel, but a natural feel, more like a live performance. The sound does not blend together like my audiosector amp, These caps do not add anything to this amp, they just take less away which in this situation you get more
P.S. I am really not trying to start another cap arguement....just try them you will be pleased.
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First of all, these are first impressions and may change.
First caps... sorry no way, while timbre is correct, full and no harsh they sound harmonically restricted compared to no caps or to Black Gates PKs, you loose a lot of reverbs and tiny details... they have the typical (a bit dry) sound of tantalum or niobium caps.
Caps in C102/C202 can give somewhat more focus but as I've said previosly the best option, if one really wants to use caps, are (IMHO) BG PKs and Elna Cerafines.
But nothing sounds as good as no caps there, IMHO.
Regarding Rhopoints (or better General Resistance, Rhopoint is the distributor), they are pretty good sounding resistors, better than Mills.
They're detailed, full sounding, relaxed, easy on the ears.
But, when correct direction is used, they're no better than MPs, simply different timbre (thinner), a bit easier to listen to and a bit less detailed.
(See correct direction on pic)
I still consider MPs the best option but those Rhopoints are a fine alternatives, too bad for their price...
Interesting, I've ordered a pair to test.
Also Mundorf Supreme are really interesting.
New caps are for C102/C202 and resistors for R101, R201, if you read the above passage you already know...
I'm waiting a new pair to test but from what I remember my favourite direction was the opposite, but I can be wrong.
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OK, OK, 
I wasn't making my own claim that the Audyns and Mundorfs are the same. And I'm not going to spend time on it as it's not that significant. If anyone is that interested just do a key search in this very forum and the references will be there.
I'm going back to speaker building - you guys are too sensitive and not very nice
I wasn't making my own claim that the Audyns and Mundorfs are the same. And I'm not going to spend time on it as it's not that significant. If anyone is that interested just do a key search in this very forum and the references will be there.I'm going back to speaker building - you guys are too sensitive and not very nice
First pic are all the caps.
Russian Teflon:
Strange coloration and not very transparent (I had high hopes for this actually). Thin bass. - a no go.
K 75-10:
Very warm and with a big room.Loose in the bass. Not that good seperation and loss of details and transparancy, but a nice presentation.
K 71-4:
Very transparent and nice tonal character, even though a triffle cold sounding. Good depth and separation. High frequencies now comes better through and fast transients are rendered nicely.
T(obias)J(jensen) paper in oil:
This was the big surprise..A little warmer and a little softer in the bass than K 71-4 and with almost the same high frequency detailing and transparency as that.
Difficult to choose between the last two, as they are both very good.
IMHO the best capacitor still is no capacitor, though.
More transparancy, better separation and the best bassdefinition.
Thank you Kolby. Very nice reviews and you have added some caps (for example, the TJ) that are new to me. Also thanks for the pictures. It is a really good idea that I will try to do so in future.
Overall, I have the same impression as you for the 3 Russian caps. I describe the teflons coloration as oily or slick. It is a strange sound.
The K71-4 is nice, a little cool, but a great cap for any FE build. In my system, K71 and TC were equal but different.
I agree that the K75-10 is warm, but lacking in detail and separation. I have found that the K75-10 bypassed with a small polypropylene cap keeps much of its warmth and adds detail and improves soundstage and sparkle. I am using a 1 uF K75-10 with a 1 nF AMTRANS AMCH. Since your K75 is larger, I'm not sure what size bypass would be best, but since you have the K75, please give it a try with a bypass cap and see what you think.
There is one difference, probably due to system, listener, etc. Like Dario, I don't like the sound of the FE without C13. In my case, the bass is not as deep and the mid-range sounds too forward. Different answers for different people. Isn't DIY fun?
Jac
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