Hi. I am an annoying user for this forum.
Always asking questions due to my ignorance of theoretical foundations on electronics.
Weight to this I have built several stages of DIY phono, some published in DIYAUDIO.
But I always have the doubt that is what gives good dynamics to a preamplifier.
I have passive phono preamps; assets; mixed
Some I like their sound but they do not have good dynamics and vice versa.
In all of them I use the same power source (50 watts and ultra-fast diodes); and the rest of the audio system is the same
What is the factor for good dynamics to be obtained?
regards
Always asking questions due to my ignorance of theoretical foundations on electronics.
Weight to this I have built several stages of DIY phono, some published in DIYAUDIO.
But I always have the doubt that is what gives good dynamics to a preamplifier.
I have passive phono preamps; assets; mixed
Some I like their sound but they do not have good dynamics and vice versa.
In all of them I use the same power source (50 watts and ultra-fast diodes); and the rest of the audio system is the same
What is the factor for good dynamics to be obtained?
regards
What do you mean by "dynamics"? How will you know when it is "good"?
All you can ask of a preamp (ar any other audio amp) is that the output signal varies in accordance with the input signal. This gives perfect dynamics, and is fairly easy to achieve. If this does not satisfy you, then you need an effects box which will increase its gain for louder signals - thus making them even louder - or perhaps vary its gain somewhat randomly. Some people achieve this by using a SET amp with no feedback and a bad PSU.
All you can ask of a preamp (ar any other audio amp) is that the output signal varies in accordance with the input signal. This gives perfect dynamics, and is fairly easy to achieve. If this does not satisfy you, then you need an effects box which will increase its gain for louder signals - thus making them even louder - or perhaps vary its gain somewhat randomly. Some people achieve this by using a SET amp with no feedback and a bad PSU.
DF96 I refer to "good dynamics" as they say in the reviews, to the difference that exists between the soft passages and the strengths of a disc.
There are preamps that if you compare them with another sunansin life, "flat".
The same goes for power amplifiers.
I remember a Technics that I had. Then I replaced it with a Rotel and then with a Marantz PM6006 and there is no comparison. Techcnics sounds dead even if you turn up the volume, it does not have that "life", the soft passages are almost equal to the strong passages.
That's what I mean, which makes some sound "flat" and others "real".
There are preamps that if you compare them with another sunansin life, "flat".
The same goes for power amplifiers.
I remember a Technics that I had. Then I replaced it with a Rotel and then with a Marantz PM6006 and there is no comparison. Techcnics sounds dead even if you turn up the volume, it does not have that "life", the soft passages are almost equal to the strong passages.
That's what I mean, which makes some sound "flat" and others "real".
Sorry, I don't know how to design for 'poor dynamics' - it would need either a compressor or large amounts of third-order distortion. 'Life' when you turn up the volume could be a symptom of distortion, as distortion makes things sound louder. What you call "flat" is probably actually real, and what you call "real" is probably an effect.
We are not understanding. If you listen to music "live" you realize that it has a dynamism. That the strong is strong and the soft is softer. There are preamps, like the Leheman Black Cube that have "that". Others cheaper no. That's what I mean. and not to distortion. If you look at the critiques of a pre phono, you will see the word "good or poor dynamics".
It could be the quality of the RIAA equalisation. It's not a one size fits all remedy RIAA Phono Preamps
If you like the black cube: it‘s ‚simply‘ a competently designed op-amp based phono stage. Anything along the design examples of LT or the papers of Walt Jung shall bring you there. Did you build the phonoclone? This is what i would consider being ‚dynamic‘, and its quite a bang for the buck!
I know what ALPUY means. I have heard numerous riaa preamps from cheap receivers which sounded dead and boring. Those circuits were mostly based around single opa with riaa feedback. Typically with poor overload behavior. Killing the transients.
On the other hand riaa preamps which split amplification into two or more stages with passive riaa always sounded better, fuller, more musical, with great dynamics, often too much, in comparison to cds.
Over 30 years i built so many riaa preamps i can't even remember all of them. The best, and definitely quite complex is czech design Aktidamp MkIII, which i use till today. Some old pramps like Nikko, PS Audio, Onkyo Integra have had amazing sounding phono sections. Being preamp junkie, phono section is the first thing i check.
On the other hand riaa preamps which split amplification into two or more stages with passive riaa always sounded better, fuller, more musical, with great dynamics, often too much, in comparison to cds.
Over 30 years i built so many riaa preamps i can't even remember all of them. The best, and definitely quite complex is czech design Aktidamp MkIII, which i use till today. Some old pramps like Nikko, PS Audio, Onkyo Integra have had amazing sounding phono sections. Being preamp junkie, phono section is the first thing i check.
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Although I've not experimented with phono stages, in my experience (which is with DAC output stages and amps) dynamics is strongly related to how much power supply noise a circuit generates. Opamps are typically the worst offenders due to their classAB output stages, but even opamps can sound dynamic if they aren't driving much in the way of a load.
To get best dynamics, design circuits which draw invariant current from a supply and/or build a very low output impedance PSU.
What Adason says is what I have referred to from the beginning and I have not made myself understood. That vivacity that some phono preamps have that simulate the reality of live music and that others do not.
And the question is what component or what configuration does this.
I have tried OPA; OP, etc. and the best result has been given to me by SSM2019 as the first stage in RIAA passive.
Of course, the DIY with OP and OPA that I have built sounds fantastic, but that rise that SSM 2019 has does not have it.
Then I ask: is the IC responsible or is it something else?
I end the issue because I see that only Adason has understood my question.
I happen to be bad with English.
And the question is what component or what configuration does this.
I have tried OPA; OP, etc. and the best result has been given to me by SSM2019 as the first stage in RIAA passive.
Of course, the DIY with OP and OPA that I have built sounds fantastic, but that rise that SSM 2019 has does not have it.
Then I ask: is the IC responsible or is it something else?
I end the issue because I see that only Adason has understood my question.
I happen to be bad with English.
Hi ALPUY,
I think I know what you mean. It could all be down to phase. I built a RIAA pre-amp many years ago and it just sounded so much better than everything else I had heard. It was a very simple 3 transistor circuit called a Liniac designed by John Linsley Hood. Now the big difference was that he was a great fan of shunt feedback for record pre-amps. He got a lot of criticism because of the higher noise level when compared to series feedback. But he was a serious designer and he pointed out to his critics that the series configuration did not achieve proper phase response. His did. In magazine articles he showed photos of the difference from from CRO's and also reported the results of large listening tests. All favoured the shunt FB circuits. The same results can be achieved from series FB designs by putting an additional low-pass RC network at output......or
use the sort of design that Icsaszar spoke of. Passive equalization between two gain sections will achieve the same good result.
I can't put my hands on the published material at the moment but a number of his circuits are on Paul Kemble's very useful site.
I'll try and post the link below, cheers Jonathan
I think I know what you mean. It could all be down to phase. I built a RIAA pre-amp many years ago and it just sounded so much better than everything else I had heard. It was a very simple 3 transistor circuit called a Liniac designed by John Linsley Hood. Now the big difference was that he was a great fan of shunt feedback for record pre-amps. He got a lot of criticism because of the higher noise level when compared to series feedback. But he was a serious designer and he pointed out to his critics that the series configuration did not achieve proper phase response. His did. In magazine articles he showed photos of the difference from from CRO's and also reported the results of large listening tests. All favoured the shunt FB circuits. The same results can be achieved from series FB designs by putting an additional low-pass RC network at output......or
use the sort of design that Icsaszar spoke of. Passive equalization between two gain sections will achieve the same good result.
I can't put my hands on the published material at the moment but a number of his circuits are on Paul Kemble's very useful site.
I'll try and post the link below, cheers Jonathan
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Try this: A Paul Kemble web page - John Linsley Hood pre-amp designs.
And thanks to Paul for a very useful site.
While on his designs it is worth pointing out that Linsley Hood also pointed out that the noise from a shunt feedback design had a different frequency distribution from the more popular series FB and was less noticeable. He describes it as more of a "rustle" than a "hiss" and less subjectively offensive.
It's only 3 SS devices and does sound good.
Cheers Jonathan
And thanks to Paul for a very useful site.
While on his designs it is worth pointing out that Linsley Hood also pointed out that the noise from a shunt feedback design had a different frequency distribution from the more popular series FB and was less noticeable. He describes it as more of a "rustle" than a "hiss" and less subjectively offensive.
It's only 3 SS devices and does sound good.
Cheers Jonathan
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Then you need a expander circuit, that will do the opposite of compress the signal.
I reckon its worth trying the experiment for yourself yes. You could start off by powering one of your RIAA stages from a shunt regulator with low Zout and see whether there's any improvement in dynamics.
apples, oranges, or kiwi fruit?
"the best" front end varies with cart Z, from lo output Moving Coil ~ 10 Ohms to kOhms with substantial complex component Moving Magnet/Iron
and there's an accompanying ~30 dB gain difference
as a high bias current input Q BJT 1 nV amp the SSM2019 is really only suited to MC carts - what are you comparing?
"the best" front end varies with cart Z, from lo output Moving Coil ~ 10 Ohms to kOhms with substantial complex component Moving Magnet/Iron
and there's an accompanying ~30 dB gain difference
as a high bias current input Q BJT 1 nV amp the SSM2019 is really only suited to MC carts - what are you comparing?
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You can‘t boil down ‚good sound‘ to single a term of the equation. Shunt psu may or may not help, topology (the way the riaa re-equalization is implemented), parts choice, the list goes on, and, major contributor, how the actual physical implementation is done. All that discussed ‚recently’ at the mpp-thread Mpp
If anyone wishes to follow up the series/shunt FB phase debate the following is the section from one of JLH's pre-amp articles that discusses it.
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/90s/Electronics-Today-1992-04.pdf
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/90s/Electronics-Today-1992-04.pdf
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