Well, I just purchased that Variac that was listed earlier in the thread. If that doesn't work, unfortunately, I will be putting this table up for sale. For reference, it has:
- Hanze motor springs
- Metal idler wheel with 3 o-rings
- Schopper new idler wheel
- Original idler wheel
- Two spare Schopper belts, in addition to the one that's on it
- Brass end cap for main bearing with ceramic ball bearing
- CLD Plinth with solid walnut casing
- 9" Thomas Schick tonearm with Yamamoto ebony headshell w/ upgraded Sumiko lead wires
- A new Variac power regulator.
Please let me know if anyone is interested (depending on if the Variac doesn't help alleviate the problem).
- Hanze motor springs
- Metal idler wheel with 3 o-rings
- Schopper new idler wheel
- Original idler wheel
- Two spare Schopper belts, in addition to the one that's on it
- Brass end cap for main bearing with ceramic ball bearing
- CLD Plinth with solid walnut casing
- 9" Thomas Schick tonearm with Yamamoto ebony headshell w/ upgraded Sumiko lead wires
- A new Variac power regulator.
Please let me know if anyone is interested (depending on if the Variac doesn't help alleviate the problem).
Oh ! Pardon me. Posted in a little bit of hurry. From what I have read E50 motors would have been even better if they could take more load. (One upgrade is changing coils in motor) But I am not suggesting that. On the contrary you can add center weight so that it increases little load on motor, which may decrease speed. The new turntable having higher speed probably can be seen as advantageous with respect to lots of people opting for motor winding upgrades.
Regards.
Hi Andrew and Nigel. thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. However I am unfortunately not knowledgeable as far as complex circuits and electronics is concerned. I can do basic trouble shooting, simple board layouts from scratch and rebuilding of existing boards with newer components. I understand a little about amplification circuits but not much else - very much a newbie. Can you suggest a website where they might have complete circuit diagrams, board layouts and component lists that I could build a PSU? Any additional info I would never say no to - I am slowly learning more about electronics (very slowly.)
That one I showed is almost do-able without knowing much. The TL074 is almost as dia. I have had sucess on stripboard. The 74HC4060 is exactly as the chip is. Some type of earth/ground strap is advisable with 74 series when building to stop the static zapping the chip. It could be built with 3 x 9 V batteries to get it going.
It sounds like a great set up that in the longer run could give you great satisfaction. It took me quite a while to get mine sorted out to the point where I was relatively happy with its performance. I have not heard anything that was substantially better. I have a schick/spu a95/slate plinth. I would recommend some patience and continuing to work to resolve the issues, I understand the frustration.
I suspect it is something very small that is wrong. A missing ball bearing in either the motor or eddy disc is an unlikely example. It is typical of what people miss. As the speed is too fast the magnet could be weak. Add some 10x 3 magnets if there space is there. As they are powerful you will have to test polarity to be sure you are adding ( they go on top ). If a TD124 magnet is weak they might hold either way. The way to know is feel for repulusion and reserve the disc magnet to add. You could add a spacer at the main centre bearing bottom if the magnets need a small extra clearance to work. If it works it would be a solution. Cork would be OK below the thrust. The nylon should self adjust if the spacer is reasonably flat.Try other things later, bronze would be good ( retain the nylon or whatever it is ).
I wonder if your TD124 was made up of parts ( two or more turntables ) ? I saw this with a so called Shindo Garrard 301. The guy spent a fortune. My friend Terry O'Sullivan ( Loricraft ) took countless hours getting it right and charged a fraction of what the time was worth. The guy was very pleased and could have made money on it. Although I don't really know I doubted it was all Shindo parts. It was so wrong as to be a joke. It could never have been run as sold. I have to say if it was Shindo the 301 to my mind is a better turntable. The Shindow makes problems that it then has to solve. If I was to add mass for goodness knows what reason I would use a magnetic levitation bearing as did Verdier. I really doubt any turntable needs more than 6 Lbs platters if some is a flywheel. Linn say it's wrong to go heavier. I think I have to say the same.
Do get a vernier. Even these cheap ones seem OK. This one is slightly above the quality of the very cheapest. For getting ratios it will be fine.
150mm 15cm 6" Electronic Digital LCD Steel Vernier Caliper Gauge Micrometer F5 | eBay
This is what could work and is thin.
Useful 10pcs Round Super Strong Magnets RARE Earth Neodymium DIY 10x3mm | eBay
I wonder if your TD124 was made up of parts ( two or more turntables ) ? I saw this with a so called Shindo Garrard 301. The guy spent a fortune. My friend Terry O'Sullivan ( Loricraft ) took countless hours getting it right and charged a fraction of what the time was worth. The guy was very pleased and could have made money on it. Although I don't really know I doubted it was all Shindo parts. It was so wrong as to be a joke. It could never have been run as sold. I have to say if it was Shindo the 301 to my mind is a better turntable. The Shindow makes problems that it then has to solve. If I was to add mass for goodness knows what reason I would use a magnetic levitation bearing as did Verdier. I really doubt any turntable needs more than 6 Lbs platters if some is a flywheel. Linn say it's wrong to go heavier. I think I have to say the same.
Do get a vernier. Even these cheap ones seem OK. This one is slightly above the quality of the very cheapest. For getting ratios it will be fine.
150mm 15cm 6" Electronic Digital LCD Steel Vernier Caliper Gauge Micrometer F5 | eBay
This is what could work and is thin.
Useful 10pcs Round Super Strong Magnets RARE Earth Neodymium DIY 10x3mm | eBay
I didn't want to leave you hanging in the air. This part is in the style of and to my mind is Shindo. If not a good copy. Seeing as it was from the East ( not Japan ) it is hard to know. The ball bearings don't exactly work as would be thought. We never really did fully understand but got it to work after many problems ( I suspect it could be the best Shindo in the World, it took months to get it right ). We contacted many Shindo owners who said if a copy it is correct in type. The finish is crude but not in a way which would harn performance ( oil is the working part ). Although I question what is the aim of this engineering I have no doubt it is sincere. Mr Shindo as best I know is no more. I think this 301 was 5% wrong on speed with massive wow.
No ball bearing in the intermediate pulley set up and the motor usually makes a terrible racket if the tiny little ball bearing is missing.
I am not sure about Garrard's quality control but TD-124 parts are fully interchangeable if in good condition. My second table is what I term the ersatz table because it came to me as a basket case (it was literally in a basket..lol) with the chassis, motor and intermediate pulley - there were a few parts from a TD-121 included which I initially used to piece something together. There are parts from at least 5 other TD-124s in this resurrected table, it actually runs less fussily than my MKII which was completely original when I got it. It runs very well in fact and aside from a few quirks as a result of somewhat rushed re-assembly it is a trusty steed. In fact I am listening to it right now, dead on speed in about 90 seconds.. It's got a cast iron platter, a rebuilt main bearing, rebuilt motor, and other than that it's all cast off parts that just work.
Yes I agree with kevinkr. Why to give away a transcription turntable which lots of enthusiasts crave for .
With patience this will be sorted out. May be if lubrication dries out overtime the speed will decrease. I was wondering if somehow current draw can be limited it may slow down the speed. Not sure though.
Regards.
. With patience this will be sorted out. May be if lubrication dries out overtime the speed will decrease. I was wondering if somehow current draw can be limited it may slow down the speed. Not sure though.
Regards.
I didn't want to leave you hanging in the air. This part is in the style of and to my mind is Shindo. If not a good copy. Seeing as it was from the East ( not Japan ) it is hard to know. The ball bearings don't exactly work as would be thought. We never really did fully understand but got it to work after many problems ( I suspect it could be the best Shindo in the World, it took months to get it right ). We contacted many Shindo owners who said if a copy it is correct in type. The finish is crude but not in a way which would harn performance ( oil is the working part ). Although I question what is the aim of this engineering I have no doubt it is sincere. Mr Shindo as best I know is no more. I think this 301 was 5% wrong on speed with massive wow.
Seems a rather noisy solution to me !
I have a feeling (no stronger than that) that a single ball will give less rumble than a rotating ball race.
I can't see how placing a ball on top of a ball race adds any performance improvement.
The nice thing about the near point contact of the single ball resting on a hardish plate, is that any high points will gradually wear away, i.e. it should get quieter as it wears in.
Should we dismantle and clean and re-oil after a running in period?
I can't see how placing a ball on top of a ball race adds any performance improvement.
The nice thing about the near point contact of the single ball resting on a hardish plate, is that any high points will gradually wear away, i.e. it should get quieter as it wears in.
Should we dismantle and clean and re-oil after a running in period?
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It's wrong to adjust the voltage as it not finding the true problem. As for parts all being interchangable I have doubts. Having designed my own similar motors there is a small variation in speed ( 2 % ). As long as the motor goes with it's pulley all should be OK. As TD124 and has slightly less iron I doubt it would be of better tollerence. The reason the Garrard has more iron ( iron type alloy ) is Garrard felt they should work at the very rare 40 Hz as my best guess. It was in the spec book. It gives the Garrard a slightly better look. Much in the way of better output transformers. The 501 motor has about 200 % the iron.
One possibility is the TD124 had a selected motor. I am told it wasn't made in house. It could be a 1 in 10 selection. That would allow totally standard parts. If +/-0.5% the magnet would pull it in . The Garrards range about +/- 1.5% . Based on the construction which is almost identical and the Garrrad having more metal it should by the laws of physics be slightly better. Bearings and finishes are identical in all but the smallest details. It's as if the same person designed the motor. I give the benefit of the doubt to Garrard as it looks they spent more money.
My reason to ask for a Vernier to be used is many Garrards are 230 V converted to 115 V. In the process many get the wrong pulley. The Shindo was one.
One interesting thing about the Shindo is, it is 100 % the wrong way to make a bearing. And yet it works. It should be the worst rumble ever. It hybrids how the cheapest turntables worked with how a 401 works. He takes a very brave step. He makes the shaft hard enough to cope with the ball. Both components seem to have been reasonably on centre. There is a small wear patch ( 0.1 mm ) that looks uniform and not concave. The crude cup seems to self centre. It is hard to know how much the multi balls rotate and the main ball. It is tempting to think they all do. This suggests someone who played with ideas and didn't read books. Such books he read were more likely that he repaired things ( thew things were the books ). Hats off to Shindo. Shindo has a reputation as high as it is possible to go like Kondo and FAL. His bearing would be ridiculed at DIY Audio I am sure.
The FAL is a good example. His speaker is flat coned ( looks like Sony Esprit ). Has a coil that is rectangular. > 50 % outside the magnetic field. This suggests a speaker with poor frequency/polar responce and sensetivity. It has one of the loudest and most riviting sounds ever via a 2A3 amplifier ( see below Mr FAL ). That amplifier sounding tight and extended in both treble and bass. How Krell amps should sound. So much is assumed and not tested. The LP I liked so much was a Japanese percussion piano on the largest FAL ( not shown ). It is one man playing a great number of instruments as if they are one. Mr FAL has a repair shop his dad owned. We speak not one work of the others langauge. He hands me the 2A3 circuit as how we speak. It is a weird balanced drive type I never saw before. He and Kondo were friends. FAL in his opinion is learning how to design amplifers. I never heard better and not from his friend. Alas Kondo is no more, he used a Garrard 401. That's how I met Kondo and then FAL. I met Kondo via Jim Marshall. Now that wouldn't be how one would exspect it ? Mr Grinrod to be accurate the then designer. Chris Beeching wanted to marry the two companies. I love Marshall amps. Mr Kondo was a compete gentleman and as far as I could tell not rich. If you met him with the company you might assume he was the accountant. The Ongaku was inspired by the PYE Mozart as far as I know. The similarity is not great.
TD124 is a turntable in the FAL Kondo range. It is perfectly possible to make an amplifer to minic a Kondo at about $700 ( not a FAL ). Use EL34 and keep away from all others if wanting sucess. Gu50 perhaps.
The young lady with the white car was Thorens parts lady. You might say I have " inside " imformation.
The visit to CES (Las Vegas) and Washington DC - Jan 2004
One possibility is the TD124 had a selected motor. I am told it wasn't made in house. It could be a 1 in 10 selection. That would allow totally standard parts. If +/-0.5% the magnet would pull it in . The Garrards range about +/- 1.5% . Based on the construction which is almost identical and the Garrrad having more metal it should by the laws of physics be slightly better. Bearings and finishes are identical in all but the smallest details. It's as if the same person designed the motor. I give the benefit of the doubt to Garrard as it looks they spent more money.
My reason to ask for a Vernier to be used is many Garrards are 230 V converted to 115 V. In the process many get the wrong pulley. The Shindo was one.
One interesting thing about the Shindo is, it is 100 % the wrong way to make a bearing. And yet it works. It should be the worst rumble ever. It hybrids how the cheapest turntables worked with how a 401 works. He takes a very brave step. He makes the shaft hard enough to cope with the ball. Both components seem to have been reasonably on centre. There is a small wear patch ( 0.1 mm ) that looks uniform and not concave. The crude cup seems to self centre. It is hard to know how much the multi balls rotate and the main ball. It is tempting to think they all do. This suggests someone who played with ideas and didn't read books. Such books he read were more likely that he repaired things ( thew things were the books ). Hats off to Shindo. Shindo has a reputation as high as it is possible to go like Kondo and FAL. His bearing would be ridiculed at DIY Audio I am sure.
The FAL is a good example. His speaker is flat coned ( looks like Sony Esprit ). Has a coil that is rectangular. > 50 % outside the magnetic field. This suggests a speaker with poor frequency/polar responce and sensetivity. It has one of the loudest and most riviting sounds ever via a 2A3 amplifier ( see below Mr FAL ). That amplifier sounding tight and extended in both treble and bass. How Krell amps should sound. So much is assumed and not tested. The LP I liked so much was a Japanese percussion piano on the largest FAL ( not shown ). It is one man playing a great number of instruments as if they are one. Mr FAL has a repair shop his dad owned. We speak not one work of the others langauge. He hands me the 2A3 circuit as how we speak. It is a weird balanced drive type I never saw before. He and Kondo were friends. FAL in his opinion is learning how to design amplifers. I never heard better and not from his friend. Alas Kondo is no more, he used a Garrard 401. That's how I met Kondo and then FAL. I met Kondo via Jim Marshall. Now that wouldn't be how one would exspect it ? Mr Grinrod to be accurate the then designer. Chris Beeching wanted to marry the two companies. I love Marshall amps. Mr Kondo was a compete gentleman and as far as I could tell not rich. If you met him with the company you might assume he was the accountant. The Ongaku was inspired by the PYE Mozart as far as I know. The similarity is not great.
TD124 is a turntable in the FAL Kondo range. It is perfectly possible to make an amplifer to minic a Kondo at about $700 ( not a FAL ). Use EL34 and keep away from all others if wanting sucess. Gu50 perhaps.
The young lady with the white car was Thorens parts lady. You might say I have " inside " imformation.
The visit to CES (Las Vegas) and Washington DC - Jan 2004
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You must be right Andrew. So very brave this design. It is more of the Bulldozer school of design ( They are 1 micron on the rams and they are exposed. Mr O'Sullivan trained on them. Usually down a hole near Christmas time in the snow and the dark whilst keeping everything absolutely clean!!! ). That helped him understand the 301/401. Terry owns the right to the Garrard name via calling on Garrard as a technical sales rep. A nice clean job. ATF is OK for bearings from the Bulldozer also.
One lucky thing is this customer would have killed us if we changed anything. Sometimes just to sit back and be a historian is the best life one can have.
I would change the oil as often as possible. It is so easy to do and ensures the bearing is full ( mostly the oil is the bearing ). It will help even more if slightly the wrong oil is used ( modern oils in general ). The motor is more tricky so leave well alone or every two years.
Yes proper solution is always desirable. But just to discuss the eddy magnet can be made stronger by rubbing very strong magnet on it. Would be interesting to try.
Shindo Thrust Bearing : Don't know how replacing a single point contact bearing with smaller nine balls bearing would work out. But it can be still improved by removing unnecessary balls (Six) and keeping only three which are at equidistant. Isn't it ?
Regards.
A ball race is always susceptible to moving up and down as the balls track an imperfect surface.
That does not happen with a single ball rotating on it's contact point.
However, an incorrectly centred spindle hole will pull the ball off centre and that will give rise to some modulation(rumble) as the ball l tracks around it tiny circular orbit.
I can see how a centre and ground shaft will give a pretty well centred hole.
How does centreless grinding keep the hole exactly in the centre?
That does not happen with a single ball rotating on it's contact point.
However, an incorrectly centred spindle hole will pull the ball off centre and that will give rise to some modulation(rumble) as the ball l tracks around it tiny circular orbit.
I can see how a centre and ground shaft will give a pretty well centred hole.
How does centreless grinding keep the hole exactly in the centre?
The 10 x 3 mm magnets would tell a story and quickly. I do remember a 124 doing this and thought the magnet at fault. The 301/401 never seems to have a problem!!! The 401 is a near genius way of doing it. The eddy field averages and uses the cast iron of the motor as the field enhancer. The 301 is less good as the motor is aluminium. Take time adjusting the disc in the magnet gap of a 301. It can take hours. Spin it by hand until not more than 0.001" deflection if possible, it can be done.
Hiten you spoted the " missing " balls in the Shindo. As far as we know it is right. Perhaps it does not rotate and is a self centering idea? I can see how that might work. Maybe even Japanese Buhdist principles in play ? Linn always stated concentricity must be to 0.0001"( 1/10 thou ). I think that was a bit of Garrard speak from the 1952 301 design proposal. It stated the thrust must not be worse than 1/10 thou away from 90 degrees end to end of the gauge. I suspect Mr Shindo didn't know that as he could not equal it in his design. Nor the TD124 as it is ground on centres and a ball fitted ( TD160 is more like LP12 ). To compenstate the TD124 has a soft thrust which is a highly acceptable engineering solution. It does soften the sound a little. Grinding on centres is a cheaper method. The Garrard was made on a Churchill cenreless grinder. A centreless grinder is also cheaper in vast quantity. The problem when " on centres " being you add centre wobble and the ball dimensions plus the fit in the ball cup. That's three errors. Shindo missed a trick . If you use a cheap drill bit to make the initial cut you can average the errors. The end cap needs to be marked to say which bolt to which of 3 fixings. This should be done at the last stage. The ball will automatically centre if made the way I will outline. The bearing shells done at the last minute. The work must not be taken out of the lathe when doing this ( just the tools in a carefully set up end stock on a well maintained lathe ). If the bearing was made in three section of cast iron it would need no shells. The middle section must be clear to catch any dirt ( 14 mm ? ). It could screw together. In fact the end cap also would be better to screw together and must have a dirt trap, bolts can have errors. Oil retention by an outer sleeve. This would allow the bearing to be machined in two hits. Crude drill circa 12 mm and perhaps a 1/2 inch reamer to finish. The shaft might be 1/2 inch - 0.002 inch. Tighter is not always ideal ( tribology mostly ). The outer bearing could look like a gas pipe for all it matters. The 501 chassis was made on a Colcester lathe untill recently as it can handle 14 inch billet. We have at last found someone to CNC it. Body scaners are a big industry in Oxford, ask and I got. They need big bits of non magnets steel also. The F1 people only go upto 10 inches as a rule.
One version of the 501 bearing was made on centres. We were very angry at first until it was measured. What Mr D had done was pared the end bearing with what would be like a very high grade chissel. This is what is done with fuel injectors and is what Mr D makes!
Hiten you spoted the " missing " balls in the Shindo. As far as we know it is right. Perhaps it does not rotate and is a self centering idea? I can see how that might work. Maybe even Japanese Buhdist principles in play ? Linn always stated concentricity must be to 0.0001"( 1/10 thou ). I think that was a bit of Garrard speak from the 1952 301 design proposal. It stated the thrust must not be worse than 1/10 thou away from 90 degrees end to end of the gauge. I suspect Mr Shindo didn't know that as he could not equal it in his design. Nor the TD124 as it is ground on centres and a ball fitted ( TD160 is more like LP12 ). To compenstate the TD124 has a soft thrust which is a highly acceptable engineering solution. It does soften the sound a little. Grinding on centres is a cheaper method. The Garrard was made on a Churchill cenreless grinder. A centreless grinder is also cheaper in vast quantity. The problem when " on centres " being you add centre wobble and the ball dimensions plus the fit in the ball cup. That's three errors. Shindo missed a trick . If you use a cheap drill bit to make the initial cut you can average the errors. The end cap needs to be marked to say which bolt to which of 3 fixings. This should be done at the last stage. The ball will automatically centre if made the way I will outline. The bearing shells done at the last minute. The work must not be taken out of the lathe when doing this ( just the tools in a carefully set up end stock on a well maintained lathe ). If the bearing was made in three section of cast iron it would need no shells. The middle section must be clear to catch any dirt ( 14 mm ? ). It could screw together. In fact the end cap also would be better to screw together and must have a dirt trap, bolts can have errors. Oil retention by an outer sleeve. This would allow the bearing to be machined in two hits. Crude drill circa 12 mm and perhaps a 1/2 inch reamer to finish. The shaft might be 1/2 inch - 0.002 inch. Tighter is not always ideal ( tribology mostly ). The outer bearing could look like a gas pipe for all it matters. The 501 chassis was made on a Colcester lathe untill recently as it can handle 14 inch billet. We have at last found someone to CNC it. Body scaners are a big industry in Oxford, ask and I got. They need big bits of non magnets steel also. The F1 people only go upto 10 inches as a rule.
One version of the 501 bearing was made on centres. We were very angry at first until it was measured. What Mr D had done was pared the end bearing with what would be like a very high grade chissel. This is what is done with fuel injectors and is what Mr D makes!
Knowing what I do the motors must have been selected. I must be honest they are of average quality which means nothing bad. The Lenco is better. If you think about it the motor if sold to others for perhaps non hi fi use ( a fan ). What trouble was it to put a strobe on it in final testing and perhaps a vibration test. If lets say the standard motor was $1 and Thorens would pay $5 all were happy. Garrard had no outlet for their motors. BTW. Balancing motors usually makes them worse. Make them right in the first place is better. Of all the things that matter on centre is the big one. If you see how the rotor is made it is a surprise this is true. 90 % it is. The balancing is a nightmare ( I have used the guys F1 people use and they failed ). When I see balancing on motors I often wonder if it is the least metal they could take without it doing harm. That is, just for show. The problem is most balancing machines work in 3D. What is more useful is to work side to side. I use static balance on razor blade runners ( my design ). I drill a tiny amount each time. Maybe the good guys also did this? Balancing machines often damage the shafts unless super hard. I did get to see the Mercades F1 engine for my trouble and a new Ford Diesel when I tried commersial balancing. 1950's text books suggest at less than 3000 RPM static balance is preferable.