Indeed I am talking about the main bearing. The procedure for re-oiling the old motor bearings is identical to what you need to do in order to use the new bearings.
I think it is possible that you do not have enough oil or the right viscosity oil in the main bearing. I found mine needed to be filled about 1/4 of the way full with 20 SAE oil (the aforementioned 3 in 1 motor oil) for everything to be just right. Mine has very low hours and the bearings are basically as new, hopefully yours is fairly close.
I'd try the oil in the main bearing first and see what that gets you. Some people brag about the platter coasting for several minutes, IMHO with this viscosity of oil and good bearings I'd be happy with 30 seconds or so..
Waiting on an arm board, and hope to have time to play with it some more.
Computer issues are still killing me..
Still living day to day with the ancient Compaq EVO N610C and linux - I love it, but it was not intended for this use. Building new computers is no longer the fun it once was, particularly when they don't work as well as anticipated.I sorted it out .The screws securing main bearing and spindle were little loose . After I tightened them up there is no play whatsoever ,platter spins smooth 90 sec to full stop from 33.3 speed.( I've got SAE 20 from ACO hardware) .I'm still wraping my head around the sound of this table with Grace 707 and Music maker cart. I like it quite a bit but MM is unusual cart with distinct sound and Grace 707 is a dated arm. I read some critical opinions about the sound of idlers being dictated by motor and there is some merit to it but at the same time it can be so relaxing.I guess Grace will go on waiting in line AR AX deck and I will have to go broke looking for serious arm for Thorens. All in all I'm glad that you've started this thread.Thanks!!!
Too much on my plate right now to give this particular issue any real thought. Soundfountain, Stereophile, Oswald's Mill and other places have written extensively on this particular subject, and as the budget won't stretch much at this point I'll live and be happy with the arm I've got...
My uneducated choice most would probably be a 12" Sheu or a Shroeder..
OT: This is the very first post from my newly functional AMD Phenom II quad core based linux desktop. Everything is working as it should - finally. Nothing that lots of scratch couldn't fix.. Life is finally returning to normal...
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A couple of quick thoughts..
I noticed the other day that the main bearing is weeping lubricant, so this might be an excuse to get a bearing plate upgrade kit as I have to address this leak anyway..
I also determined that the surface finish of the intermediate pulley seems to be responsible for all of the noise I am hearing from that locale. I suspect some mild polishing will make a huge difference. So far attempting to further clean the surface seems to have made it worse if anything, it is really ticking now..
Listening to some music on the SME 20 tonight, wondering how the TD-124 will differ from it..
I noticed the other day that the main bearing is weeping lubricant, so this might be an excuse to get a bearing plate upgrade kit as I have to address this leak anyway..
I also determined that the surface finish of the intermediate pulley seems to be responsible for all of the noise I am hearing from that locale. I suspect some mild polishing will make a huge difference. So far attempting to further clean the surface seems to have made it worse if anything, it is really ticking now..
Listening to some music on the SME 20 tonight, wondering how the TD-124 will differ from it..
I spent about 10 minutes buffing the belt running area of the intermediate pulley and have to say I was delighted with the major improvement in noise levels - it's much quieter and feels much smoother, visually there is almost no discernible difference. I suspect a little talc on the belt will quiet things down further, but the improvement is large enough I can probably live with it as is.. The rhythmic ticking is completely gone and what is left is largely belt noise.
Something important to note is that the eddy current brake is significantly different in the MKII version.. The shaft is captive to the pulley in the MKII whereas there is a bearing in the intermediate pulley in the MKI.
Significant differences I have identified so far between the MKI and MKII:
The higher power motor apparently makes a significant difference as mine comes up to speed very quickly - in less than one revolution at 33rpm.
I plan to add a bearing upgrade kit shortly, and I will flush the bearing oil and replace when I do this.
I basically should be trying to get this into some sort of plinth very shortly as it basically ready to play records.
Something important to note is that the eddy current brake is significantly different in the MKII version.. The shaft is captive to the pulley in the MKII whereas there is a bearing in the intermediate pulley in the MKI.
Significant differences I have identified so far between the MKI and MKII:
- 15W version of E50 motor
- Revised eddy current brake
- Double grommet motor suspension
- US MKII models have the voltage change-over assembly covered by a removable bakelite plate, change-over screw is flush requiring screw driver to change.
- Aluminum/zinc alloy platter apparently fitted as standard on high serial # units for North America.
The higher power motor apparently makes a significant difference as mine comes up to speed very quickly - in less than one revolution at 33rpm.
I plan to add a bearing upgrade kit shortly, and I will flush the bearing oil and replace when I do this.
I basically should be trying to get this into some sort of plinth very shortly as it basically ready to play records.
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Some more pictures..
Here are the latest pictures of the TT, basically it is just about ready for a preliminary run in a loaner plinth.
The new arm board is Brazilian Cherry and I think looks pretty nice. I will be borrowing an SME hole cutting jig in order to locate and cut the hole for the arm bedplate.
Several people suggested stretching the belt on a coffee can, but the Thorens belt circumference (length) is considerably greater than that of the coffee can so no stretching action possible. I am running in the TT at 78 rpm and as the belt stretches with use it should in theory get a bit quieter. (I'm still having noise problems with the intermediate pulley, which seems to be caused as much as anything by excessive belt tension.)
I've flushed the main bearing and refilled it to the top of the lower oilite bearing, it takes about 10 minutes for the spindle to settle all the way to the bottom of the bearing housing, but this forces oil all the way up to the upper bearing which should not be run dry.
The next upgrade will probably be a gunmetal bearing end cap to be ordered shortly..
Lots of time now due to my contract gig ending today..
Here are the latest pictures of the TT, basically it is just about ready for a preliminary run in a loaner plinth.
The new arm board is Brazilian Cherry and I think looks pretty nice. I will be borrowing an SME hole cutting jig in order to locate and cut the hole for the arm bedplate.
Several people suggested stretching the belt on a coffee can, but the Thorens belt circumference (length) is considerably greater than that of the coffee can so no stretching action possible. I am running in the TT at 78 rpm and as the belt stretches with use it should in theory get a bit quieter. (I'm still having noise problems with the intermediate pulley, which seems to be caused as much as anything by excessive belt tension.)
I've flushed the main bearing and refilled it to the top of the lower oilite bearing, it takes about 10 minutes for the spindle to settle all the way to the bottom of the bearing housing, but this forces oil all the way up to the upper bearing which should not be run dry.
The next upgrade will probably be a gunmetal bearing end cap to be ordered shortly..
Lots of time now due to my contract gig ending today..
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I had the same problem, my advice is to pull fairly hard or use a wood wedge against the housing bearing in mind that you don't want to damage anything. (I used a flat blade screw driver and a small wood block and pried fairly gently.) Some force is definitely required but should be judiciously applied to avoid damage to the motor. Avoid marring the pulley or bending the motor housings.
Another possibility would be some penetrating oil left to seep between the shaft and the pulley overnight.
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TD-124 in its temporary plinth. This plinth is a very light weight plywood affair and as a result I am using the gel bushings as I doubt that this plinth will do much to absorb and dissipate vibration from the deck..
Tonight I also discovered that purchasing a Thorens branded belt from Thakker is no guarantee that you are getting a functionally equivalent belt to the original. The original belt was in good condition and as it turns out the new belt has stretched to about the same exact length as the original. The original however is much more compliant, and a lot thinner. The new belt measured 0.036" thick and the original 0.021" quite a difference - and the old belt runs much quieter, night and day in fact. This is not really good news because 43yr old belts generally don't have long service lives, but this may help me to locate a more suitable belt.
Tonight I also discovered that purchasing a Thorens branded belt from Thakker is no guarantee that you are getting a functionally equivalent belt to the original. The original belt was in good condition and as it turns out the new belt has stretched to about the same exact length as the original. The original however is much more compliant, and a lot thinner. The new belt measured 0.036" thick and the original 0.021" quite a difference - and the old belt runs much quieter, night and day in fact. This is not really good news because 43yr old belts generally don't have long service lives, but this may help me to locate a more suitable belt.
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Heat Wrench
One other way to persuade the pulley to come off is to judiciously apply heat using a pencil butane torch such as the type used for portable soldering. In the absence of that, a propane torch with a small tip could be used sparingly. The heat will cause the pulley to expand and free it up from the shaft. If it is really stubborn, apply heat several times allowing it to cool off befroe reheating. This should allow it to free up without the risk of damaging the pulley by prying with excessive force. Just be careful not to apply excessive heat which could damage the insulation on the wires of the armature, but given the mass of the armature, it would take a lot of heat.
This is a shaded pole induction motor, I am not sure what insulation if any is used in the squirrel cage in the armature, the windings in the stator assembly however can be damaged by heat. The force required to separate the pulley from the shaft is minimal in any event.
When reinstalling the pulley make sure you tighten the black grub screw first and the silver one last. I couldn't tell any difference, but I'd follow the recommended sequence anyway.
The final thing I would say is that unless the original belt is useless I would use it instead of any of the current production belts which seem to cause a needless increase in noise level.
Order an FM12.1 belt from here: http://www.turntablebasics.com/beltmodels.html - at least it appears to be correct in ways where the replacement Thorens belt is not. The old belt was approximately 12.8" circumference (this is approximate) and 0.021" thick, the replacement Thorens is 0.036" and far too stiff, it also costs 3.5X as much and is a poor performer. The FM12.1 is 0.023" thick and all else being the same should be more flexible. I've ordered one to see if it actually fits the bill.
When reinstalling the pulley make sure you tighten the black grub screw first and the silver one last. I couldn't tell any difference, but I'd follow the recommended sequence anyway.
The final thing I would say is that unless the original belt is useless I would use it instead of any of the current production belts which seem to cause a needless increase in noise level.
Order an FM12.1 belt from here: http://www.turntablebasics.com/beltmodels.html - at least it appears to be correct in ways where the replacement Thorens belt is not. The old belt was approximately 12.8" circumference (this is approximate) and 0.021" thick, the replacement Thorens is 0.036" and far too stiff, it also costs 3.5X as much and is a poor performer. The FM12.1 is 0.023" thick and all else being the same should be more flexible. I've ordered one to see if it actually fits the bill.
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Pulley and Belt
Good to know that the Thakker belt does not seem to be as advertised. I was considering ordering one and paying the premium for a supposed exact replacement. It appears not to be so and now I can save money for other stuff.
The armature may have some varnish as insulation to minimize eddy currents so there is a chance that it could be damaged by heat. I would not worry about the stator given its mass and the only heat conduction would be through the small surface area of the bearings. If the pulley comes off with minimum force then no problem or need for heat. If it is really stuck, that is another story. With dissimilar materials, corrosion can get pretty severe. Should be no real problem with the Thorens motor and pulley, though.
Good to know that the Thakker belt does not seem to be as advertised. I was considering ordering one and paying the premium for a supposed exact replacement. It appears not to be so and now I can save money for other stuff.
The armature may have some varnish as insulation to minimize eddy currents so there is a chance that it could be damaged by heat. I would not worry about the stator given its mass and the only heat conduction would be through the small surface area of the bearings. If the pulley comes off with minimum force then no problem or need for heat. If it is really stuck, that is another story. With dissimilar materials, corrosion can get pretty severe. Should be no real problem with the Thorens motor and pulley, though.
Just wish I wasn't the one who had to figure this out.. LOL There has been a lot of commentary at VE and elsewhere around the web about this issue, but apparently doing a little investigation and then using Google to find the right belt is just soooo hard..
I unfortunately wasted $35 + S&H, but hopefully this turntablebasics.com belt will turn out to be what I expected. Interesting that they do at least disclose the full dimensions of the belt. I wish they included the durometer of the belt as I believe this is rather important as well. Presumably having figured out that the belt thickness was important, they probably choose an appropriate durometer as well.
It should make a big difference. My original belt seems to be in very good shape, but it is 43yrs old as a minimum so having a good replacement on hand would be reassuring.
I have also been investigating bearing end caps, and I noticed that all of these fancy gunmetal and bronze ones have poorly finished internal surfaces and since they are mostly not used with thrust plates this is a concern I think. There is one stainless steel kit with thrust plates included which also happens to be the least costly choice and I am debating it.
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I now have someone insisting on another forum that there are in fact two different belts for these TT based on whether or not they are set up for 50Hz or 60Hz, however I can find no evidence of this at all in Thorens literature, but were I buying for a 50Hz table I would probably get a slightly longer belt.
Interestingly enough the part number for the MK1 and MKII belts are different as are a number of other parts in the drive train, but no information beyond that. (CB965/CB908 respectively)
He went so far as to insist that the belt originally installed on my North American spec TD-124 was actually for the European version. I don't believe it for a moment as were that truly the case it would be so loose it would be falling off, and the original seems to fit nicely and run quietly. Hopefully I have found something that will work to replace it from turntablebasics.
There is a lot of really inaccurate information out there about the TD-124, and I am developing a healthy dose of skepticism about what I read online about this and other things I have direct experience of..
It really looks like I have to figure it out myself and make some mistakes along the way.
Interestingly enough the part number for the MK1 and MKII belts are different as are a number of other parts in the drive train, but no information beyond that. (CB965/CB908 respectively)
He went so far as to insist that the belt originally installed on my North American spec TD-124 was actually for the European version. I don't believe it for a moment as were that truly the case it would be so loose it would be falling off, and the original seems to fit nicely and run quietly. Hopefully I have found something that will work to replace it from turntablebasics.
There is a lot of really inaccurate information out there about the TD-124, and I am developing a healthy dose of skepticism about what I read online about this and other things I have direct experience of..
It really looks like I have to figure it out myself and make some mistakes along the way.
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Belt Sizes and Misinformation
I would have to agree with you, Kevin, as to the amount of misinformation on the internet concerning this and other audio gear. There are some well respected individuals who advocate the use of grease in oilite bearings, for example, as well as the puffing in advertizing respecting upgrades and modifications.
I will have to change the pulleys on my Thorens TD124 MkII for 50 Hz operation, so the belt issue is something I looked into a bit. The official parts list and service manual for this turntable makes no mention of different belts for different frequencies. Turning to the Schopper website, probably the best source for restoration and parts sourcing for the TD124, they list one belt and specifically state it is for both 50 and 60 Hz operation. Given all this, the objective conclusion is that there was and is only one proper belt for the TD124. Others may have seen different belts on these units, but over the decades, there would have been many parts replacements, and not all proper.
As you have said, one has to learn for themselves. Research helps, but one cannot stop there. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this project. It helps all of us struggling with the same issues.
I would have to agree with you, Kevin, as to the amount of misinformation on the internet concerning this and other audio gear. There are some well respected individuals who advocate the use of grease in oilite bearings, for example, as well as the puffing in advertizing respecting upgrades and modifications.
I will have to change the pulleys on my Thorens TD124 MkII for 50 Hz operation, so the belt issue is something I looked into a bit. The official parts list and service manual for this turntable makes no mention of different belts for different frequencies. Turning to the Schopper website, probably the best source for restoration and parts sourcing for the TD124, they list one belt and specifically state it is for both 50 and 60 Hz operation. Given all this, the objective conclusion is that there was and is only one proper belt for the TD124. Others may have seen different belts on these units, but over the decades, there would have been many parts replacements, and not all proper.
As you have said, one has to learn for themselves. Research helps, but one cannot stop there. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this project. It helps all of us struggling with the same issues.
Hi Kal,
I have heard of others using anything within the range you cited above. Some bearing service kits on eBay include the ball bearing.. I figure a silicon nitride ball bearing would be the cat's meow here, but remember to turn over the thrust plate when you service the bearings.