By all means, Andrew, do the maths. I'm not interested in spending my time doing this - or comparing one wire against another.
If you want to "stand on the shoulders of giants" (Isaac Newton, if this phrase is new to you) then you need to:
a) decide which giants you want to team up with, and
b) believe what they say (rather than questioning it).
As I see it, there's fierce debate about whether "skin effect" means anything at audio frequencies. Similarly, in ecclesiastic circles, people debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Me - I don't buy into either debate - and as long as there's a chance skin effect might affect what I listen to, given most of my gear is DIY, I will try to make sure it doesn't by using thin wire. And, obviously, multiple strands of thin wire for bass driver speaker wires (given the current requirements).
BTW, I also believe solid-core signal wire sounds better than stranded - but that is because I believe Allen Wright knew what he was talking about.
It's a free world - by all means believe what you want ... but don't tell me if I believe something different, I'm wrong.
Regards,
Andy
Not so much, no. The calculations are easy for various applications, and it's pretty evident where it might and where it won't matter. The "debate" is only among those incapable of evaluating the effects or have been seduced by the siren song of marketing. No one with SME (thanks for that TLA) "debates" the issue, they just calculate or measure to see where it's significant in specific applications. We call this "engineering."
For this particular question, it's just not significant. SMEs will try not to throw confusing and incorrect information at people with less knowledge and experience- that doesn't help them, it just impedes.
There is no debate as there are entrenched camps, one of them fed by the cable peddlers and their tame print outlets. And as long as you accept that you 'believe' that multistrand sounds better and thus set an expectation bias all is cool.
But as SY so succinctly put. For a few inches inside an amp cable dressing will make more difference than anything else. And when you get it wrong it can usually be easily measured as hum pickup.
That is a wonderful example of how an experiment, when not combined with good theory, can send someone to completely false conclusions. The 'true believers' do this all the time.madisonears said:
Some evidence would be nice. "I did this and it sounded nicer" is not evidence of an improvement in sound quality.
If skin effect causes an input cable to increase in resistance from 0.01ohms at LF to 0.03ohms at HF then this might be measurable. If it is feeding a 10k input impedance then the primary effect will be a -0.0000017dB HF shelf. This will, of course, far outweigh the tiny effects of loudspeaker response and studio equalisation.
On the subject of skin-effect in loudspeaker cables, QED Cables did two very nice technical papers:
The Genesis Report
The once humble loudspeaker cable has seen a meteoric rise in importance in recent years. Previously almost an afterthought, cables are now crucial high-technology audio components in their own right, though often cloaked unnecessarily in mystery and intrigue.
The Genesis Report II
In 1995 we published the Genesis Report on loudspeaker cable design. In that document we established design principals, scientifically proved, which are as valid today as they were 12 years ago. This longevity is an unequivocal endorsement of both the quality and depth of that original scientific research. The Genesis Report laid the foundations on...
QED Academy
The Genesis Report
The once humble loudspeaker cable has seen a meteoric rise in importance in recent years. Previously almost an afterthought, cables are now crucial high-technology audio components in their own right, though often cloaked unnecessarily in mystery and intrigue.
The Genesis Report II
In 1995 we published the Genesis Report on loudspeaker cable design. In that document we established design principals, scientifically proved, which are as valid today as they were 12 years ago. This longevity is an unequivocal endorsement of both the quality and depth of that original scientific research. The Genesis Report laid the foundations on...
QED Academy
Thanks for your kind reply. If it's not going to be a problem for you, we can talk by PM about that, I will certainly pay you for the shipping service that can be a little pricy. It certainly wouldn't be a problem for me to perform that test. I just won't be able to solder, like you asked, because the amplifier module has faston connectors. I know I can solder the wire ending there, but I'm not really confident about doing that. I'd rather crimp and use the faston connector, that indeed, are some pure copper ones (really hard to find, I bought them from Canada), that should have better electrical properties than ordinary brass.
If we do that, once the monoblocks are finished and running, I'll try to hear some mono tracks, that I can even record the sound coming from my speakers with a semi professional micophone, and tell you all if I could hear any difference.
However, I think the best test regarding that would be to build 2 signal level cables of same length, a silver one 24gauge with everything one thinks can improve the signal flow, and another with ordinary OFC wire. Once it's done, the person who'll perform the test should chose a song of his taste, and output that signal from his DAC for a device that converts signal level to mic level and send that signal for an ADC converter.
Performing that two times, one with each cable, would gives two .WAV or .MP3 or .FLAC files of the same song. Who ever decide to do that, then, will upload those files and create a thread here. If someone can detect any kind of difference between the 2 recorded files, then we might think that something could be true. On the other hand, if they sound equal, well, you know... Haha! (I'm not saying that everything is snake oil nor it isn't, I'm just saying that if there really is a difference between two wires at signal level, the ADC would be able to get and digitalise that.)
That said, I can't perform that test because I don't have any high quality ADC, nor I have money to buy the necessary material to build a silver 'snake oil' cable. So, please don't ask me to perform that, haha!
Again, thank you all for your comments and kind!
Peace,
Eduardo Barth.
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It's been done. Without cheating, no one could even tell the difference between copper and a potato. The files are probably still posted, if you want to give them a listen. I'd suggest you spend effort on real improvements to your system rather than chasing other people's fantasies. Your choice, though.
Your the one who spouts legends with no back up. And I'm sure I'm wasting my time responding to you because your so warped up in your own OPINION you wouldn't believe the truth if a patatoe hit you in the face. The first and most important truth, Your ears are not as good as YOU think.
If it's a balanced input, 24g twisted pair with a grounded shield. Mogami, Canare , Beldon all make great interconnect cable. Thousands of miles in studios all over the world. And probably under a $1 (maybe even Canadian) a foot. I believe the biggest problem these days for interconnects is EMC so twisting for magnetic rejection and shielding for electric field rejection. And in these times of severe EM contamination it shows how little "high end" consumer audio cares about the reality of there electronics by continuously refusing to use balanced pro level (10db hotter) in/outs. But I guess that would take money away from what really makes a differance for them, marketing. Reading some of these post proves it.
This is getting a bit harsh, and does not really add anything to the discussion. You techno guys, stalwart guardians of all that is good and true in audio, sure do get worked up when someone dares to state an opinion contrary to your sacred scriptures. Try to stay calm by repeating your mantra ad infinitum: "If it can't be measured, it can't be heard." In that case, I have a mid-70's SAE power amp with .00000005% THD that I'd like to sell ya. I need money for more snake oil.
I know it takes engineers to develop and build all kinds of modern, complex items, and I thoroughly respect them for their knowledge and capabilities and thank them for most of the advancements. I try to conform to many of their important principles. However, I believe it takes a little more than mere calculations and measurements to make something sound really good. I do not believe that a graph or readout or scope will show every aspect of how good or bad, how real, something sounds to me. Maybe a lot of it, but not all of it.
And I'm not sure what I'd believe if a potato hit me in the face. Probably that there are some really mean potatoes around.
I do use balanced cabling between and have XLR connectors on my source, preamp, and the inputs to my amps. The source and preamp have true balanced circuitry throughout, not marketing mumbo jumbo. The signal is converted to single-ended inside active crossovers which are integral to the amps. I spent a lot of time and effort to get it as highly resolving and musical as it is. I like to think my careful experiments with wiring were at least a small contributing factor. You're certainly free to think otherwise.
Everything in my system is homemade except the modded Marantz SACD player and the TVC (4 transformers) preamp, much of it built with help from people on this site. I have not spent more than a few minutes of the past ten years looking at audio mags. I do not subscribe to flavor-of-the-month audio fads. I refuse to seriously consider any audio product with the word magic or quantum in its name, or any other BS marketing miracles. I've been involved in this for over 40 years (and my dad before me), and I strongly believe it is possible to be rational about this technology without being dogmatic.
Peace,
Tom E
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I would like to see (or hear) that. I am not aware of any amplifier that specified 0.00000005% THD, especially not at full power into a specified load over a frequency band of 20Hz-20KHz. Are you sure it's an SAE? If so, and it meets the spec you gave, then I might be interested in buying it. How much?
And apparently you think that skinny wire for line-level connections is one of those things that makes things sound better. That's awesome! Got any evidence? For example, you could save a short musical selection to a file, then do the same after passing it through a short length of thick wire. Then you could post both files here. Up for it?
Exactly! So use your computer's sound card to capture audio and show us the obvious difference!
That is obvious from your earlier posts, but you have not described these "experiments" in such a way as to make them replicable.
Cool, me too.
I'm sorry, but that was a joke. Scientific Audio Engineering was part of the body of companies in the 70's that rushed to design amplifiers with gobs of power and vanishingly low measured distortion that sounded awful. It was not a matter of careful evaluation and questionable judgment: they were awful and everyone knew it except the geeks who lived by those measurements.
I am not up for it. I think making files of music and comparing them is a ridiculous method of testing how something sounds. What's wrong with using your ears in a controlled manner? I compared monoblock amplifiers, each wired differently, the identity of either configuration unknown to me. I selected the one that sounded better. Pretty crude, I know, to actually sit down and listen to something play music instead of test frequencies or compare files.
I will not subject myself to the derision sure to follow any description of my tests. There are fanatics here who believe that anything short of laboratory conditions with white-coated technicians with clipboards present is worthless or even harmful. To them, simple comparative listening is a necessary evil, a human foil, a weakness to be avoided.
Glad to hear it. You need not meet any criterion other than your own satisfaction.
Peace,
Tom E
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If they're well done, no derision, more like interest. That's the whole point of putting your results out for review, and something that real researchers are accustomed to.
If they're sloppy, the faults will be pointed out. If they're sloppy and you still insist that they're not or that you somehow don't need controls to ensure that you're actually hearing something, yes, there will likely be some derision. You're claiming something supernatural here, so yeah, the rational presumption will be that it's just one more audiophile legend that crumbles under any attempts at proof. Unless there's good evidence- and if there's not, it's important that people seeking answers understand that the claim is akin to claims of abduction and anal probing by space aliens.
Bigger can be better
Originally Posted by madisonears
I will not subject myself to the derision sure to follow any description of my tests. There are fanatics here who believe that anything short of laboratory conditions with white-coated technicians with clipboards present is worthless or even harmful. To them, simple comparative listening is a necessary evil, a human foil, a weakness to be avoided.
Some 40 years ago, I spent 2 weeks in a multifactorial experimental design course, as well as Value Engineering for 2 weeks at my employers expense. As did several tens of other design and process engineers. Doubtful management would spend tens of thousands of dollars on these if they did not expect some concrete results. Instructor was Bill Diamond from IBM, and it was an epiphany re: rationale and specifics for all manner of optimization and goal seeking.
It's a shame to see those naive in experimental design respond with ad hoc dismissal and ad hominem attacks, rather than embrace their lack of knowledge, ask for guidance, and display at least a modicum of humility
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Experiment-Designs-Engineers-Scientists/dp/0471390542
John L. (still here)
Originally Posted by madisonears
I will not subject myself to the derision sure to follow any description of my tests. There are fanatics here who believe that anything short of laboratory conditions with white-coated technicians with clipboards present is worthless or even harmful. To them, simple comparative listening is a necessary evil, a human foil, a weakness to be avoided.
Some 40 years ago, I spent 2 weeks in a multifactorial experimental design course, as well as Value Engineering for 2 weeks at my employers expense. As did several tens of other design and process engineers. Doubtful management would spend tens of thousands of dollars on these if they did not expect some concrete results. Instructor was Bill Diamond from IBM, and it was an epiphany re: rationale and specifics for all manner of optimization and goal seeking.
It's a shame to see those naive in experimental design respond with ad hoc dismissal and ad hominem attacks, rather than embrace their lack of knowledge, ask for guidance, and display at least a modicum of humility
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Experiment-Designs-Engineers-Scientists/dp/0471390542
John L. (still here)
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The sound of silence was proved to be a hoax, all it took was a guy with a hifi....
Seriously though, just how do you measure or quantify enjoyment, is it not different for everyone? You could expend a lot of effort analyzing the chemical content of your favorite wine, but other people might find it unpalatable. It will probably still get them drunk though. Thats how i view this hobby of ours. Part science, part personal taste.
Hello darkness my old friend.....
Seriously though, just how do you measure or quantify enjoyment, is it not different for everyone? You could expend a lot of effort analyzing the chemical content of your favorite wine, but other people might find it unpalatable. It will probably still get them drunk though. Thats how i view this hobby of ours. Part science, part personal taste.
Hello darkness my old friend.....
lesseee... one could measure, for example, blood pressure responses to known stimuli or heart rate across a cohort, and set values for criteria based on known values... or simply ask enough people "did this sound better, or worse, or taste better or worse" etc. until some trends start showing up. There are many, many designs around to screen for personal tastes and enjoyment. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
See, intelligent experimental design that incorporates logic and fact based criteria for accepting or rejecting the theory takes more time than most folks not directly responsible for the outcome(s) care to spend.
John L
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