I find it more than unsettling that a few pseudo-intellectual ideologues believe in dictating to new or any other hobbyists that they should ignore their own senses and obey THE LAWS. I believe in the strengths of science and rigorous, rational investigation. But I also believe...oh, never mind. You people are so absolute and narrow in your own beliefs that any amount of evidence is not likely to persuade you to expand your field of possibilities. I think that those who post here about the critical importance of experimentation are probably the same who are least likely to undertake it for fear their precious but possibly limited laws may be inadequate to explain a phenomenon such as, "Oh, this sounds better than that did." Of course, bias is the best possible explanation, even when a careful observer had no interest whatsoever in which way the scale tipped. Or possibly he is a mythologist or pathological.
Some recent experiments of mine involved dropping pieces of different metals from various heights and carefully observing that all of them fell until they hit the ground, even if projected horizontally at great speed. The most obvious conclusion is that anything constructed of metal will never be able to fly.
Close your mind. No, close it more tightly, so that no new idea or concept can possibly enter. You already know everything. There, that's tight enough.
Peace,
Tom E
Well, certainly the "zero evidence" you offer won't convince anyone with basic knowledge of electricity.
Or, you know, human.
Eduardo,
There will always be disagreement about cables and their effects.
Before you finish wiring up your amp, visit a friend or dealer and listen to see if you can hear any difference between cheap speaker cables and expensive cables.
I did a degree in physics and when I built my power amp I calculated if skin effects would make any difference or not at anywhere near the audio frequency, I seem to recall using 100khz. It didn't.
So I got some military grade multistranded silver plated copper cable to wire up my amp and used the same for the speaker cable. Sounded very good to me at the time even with the early CD players of the time.
Along comes a friend (git!) with a Linn/ Naim set up who is changing his cables from the Nac4 to Nac5, I think those were the ones.
I laughed at him of course. He gave ne his old cables and I put them in my system. I was shocked at the difference.
This led me to not just changing the speaker cables but completely rewiring my amplifier.
It's currently on it's 3rd rebuild and I'm now using Russ Andrews 8TC and 4TC inside and running biwired 8TC cables to the speakers.
I've gone through a number of cables and interconnects, some are good some are not better than ordinary copper wire.
The trick is to cut through all the BS and find one that fits your ears and budget.
So in my experience cables do matter but there's a lot of marketing BS out there.
What amp are you building?
There will always be disagreement about cables and their effects.
Before you finish wiring up your amp, visit a friend or dealer and listen to see if you can hear any difference between cheap speaker cables and expensive cables.
I did a degree in physics and when I built my power amp I calculated if skin effects would make any difference or not at anywhere near the audio frequency, I seem to recall using 100khz. It didn't.
So I got some military grade multistranded silver plated copper cable to wire up my amp and used the same for the speaker cable. Sounded very good to me at the time even with the early CD players of the time.
Along comes a friend (git!) with a Linn/ Naim set up who is changing his cables from the Nac4 to Nac5, I think those were the ones.
I laughed at him of course. He gave ne his old cables and I put them in my system. I was shocked at the difference.
This led me to not just changing the speaker cables but completely rewiring my amplifier.
It's currently on it's 3rd rebuild and I'm now using Russ Andrews 8TC and 4TC inside and running biwired 8TC cables to the speakers.
I've gone through a number of cables and interconnects, some are good some are not better than ordinary copper wire.
The trick is to cut through all the BS and find one that fits your ears and budget.
So in my experience cables do matter but there's a lot of marketing BS out there.
What amp are you building?
I prefer to keep an open mind in most instances but i do have limits, usually.
Traditionally someone had an idea then went ahead and built something. When it was proven (by trial and error) someone else came along later and worked out the maths so it could be reliably repeated.
Ships were built this way for century's but they had to rely on a master shipbuilder who kept everything in his head. Disasters happened regularly but so did progress.
Only by studying the designs which actually worked well was it possible to develop the science behind stability, loading, fluid dynamics etc. If we had to rely on the scientist to make the initial breakthroughs we would probably still use a dug out log or a raft.
Imagination and science are not and never have been comfortable bedfellows but we do need both. We must never let one diminish the other.
Despite what some people say i still think the best way to send an audio signal is through wire, not potatoes or any other root vegetable.
Traditionally someone had an idea then went ahead and built something. When it was proven (by trial and error) someone else came along later and worked out the maths so it could be reliably repeated.
Ships were built this way for century's but they had to rely on a master shipbuilder who kept everything in his head. Disasters happened regularly but so did progress.
Only by studying the designs which actually worked well was it possible to develop the science behind stability, loading, fluid dynamics etc. If we had to rely on the scientist to make the initial breakthroughs we would probably still use a dug out log or a raft.
Imagination and science are not and never have been comfortable bedfellows but we do need both. We must never let one diminish the other.
Despite what some people say i still think the best way to send an audio signal is through wire, not potatoes or any other root vegetable.
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Yes, but the question wasn't about speaker cables (see Dick Greiner and Fred Davis's papers which exhausted that subject 30 years ago), but about a couple of inches of wire carrying line level signals at his amp input.
Surely because of skin effect?
Tom, I'm wondering where you get the idea that "Skin effect calculations indicate that it should not be a problem at audio frequencies."?
This table :American Wire Gauge table and AWG Electrical Current Load Limits with skin depth frequencies and wire breaking strength
... clearly shows that, to avoid skin effect, you should use wire no thicker than 20g - and 24g is more conservative.
Regards,
Andy
I'm building a pair of NXV800L monoblocks from Mr. Holton. It's my first and I wish last DIY amplifiers for the next 5 years. I'll only use high quality components, such as Neutrik DLX-HE XLR panel connectors, Plitron transformers and all modules from Mr Holton (PSU, Amp, loudspeaker protection, voltage regulated module to amp's input stage, soft start and probably a dc servo he'll develop soon) . I do believe that high quality copper can make a difference not because it has an ultra cool geometry that allows audio signal to flow two times faster and bla bla bla, but for it will be more reliable and will have -PROBABLY - better mechanical and electrical properties than an ordinary one.
The hookup wire I bought to connect everything internally was 12gauge of neotech's OCC multistranded. I wanted the solid, but I'll have to crimp them to faston connectors, so I don't really had an option. The only exception is for the input signal that will flow from the XLR panel mounting solder lugs to the amplifier's input, that I bought the same neotech wiring, but 14gauges to fit the solder lug.
Unfortunately I live in Brazil and my city doesn't have any kind of 'hifi audio shop'. So, I'm importing all pieces of the amplifier, because I can't buy anything locally (the audio stores ( I don't know how to properly say that, haha!) didn't even have the DLX-HE version of XLR panels, only the most ordinary ones). So I can't audition anything, and it's the reason I'm asking here if, other than mechanical, is there a good reason to not use lower gauge for input signal level. I know the wiring I bought is high quality, but even if it were the best of the best, if it was proven that it's not a good idea to use low gauge to input signal, it'd be good to know right now, then I would buy higher gauge wiring, because I don't want surprises haha!
Someone said something about potatoes, I went to Google and could find a review about that. There is a nice review comparing a potato to some antennas. Potatoes can get more channels than ordinary antennas, it's surprising, it's science! Haha!
That's a good point. My question is related to not more than 10cm of wiring. It's not even about the cable that will connect my preamp with the amplifier - that will probably a decent and ordinary Audio Technica XLR cable.
I'm really grateful to all of your who helped me with that. I'll keep my 14gauge wiring because it perfectly fits the panel mounting XLR I bought, and, since I already bought a high quality copper, I'm well served.
Peace,
Eduardo Barth.
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Eduardo,
Your English is better than some people who have used it since birth. After reading your posts, I like you. You have come here seeking knowledge, or at least other people's opinions, and that shows a willingness to learn. You have put a lot of effort and expense into building amplifiers that you hope will be pleasant to use for many years.
I, too, have built a pair of monoblock amps (actually, many pairs of the same design with different quality components) with the help of people on this site. I live in the USA, so it is much easier and a little less expensive for me to obtain quality components to audition and use in my system. I have experimented with lots of wire types and gauges for chassis wiring, interconnects, and speaker cables, along with many types of resistors, capacitors, opamps, etc. for active and passive circuits.
I have some pieces of 24ga Neotech OCC solid copper with teflon insulation, left over from various projects. I would be willing to send you a sample, free of charge, if you promise to install the wire in one of your amplifiers with 14ga in the other. You must also promise to post the results of comparing the two sizes here. Please tell me the lengths you require and provide your mailing address. You can use private messaging if you don't feel comfortable posting that here. Simply click on madisonears.
At my previous employer, I worked with a man from Brazil. He was a very nice person who was working to improve himself and his family, and I admired his courage for coming here, learning a new language and culture, and being such a decent person. He was kind to me, and I simply want to extend similar kindness to another Brazilian and audio fool. I am also interested in getting someone's opinion, whether it does or does not agree with mine. For the time it takes to make four solder connections and zero expense, you can perform an experiment that might be useful to everyone here, but especially yourself.
If you are not interested, don't be afraid to decline my offer.
Peace,
Tom E
Your English is better than some people who have used it since birth. After reading your posts, I like you. You have come here seeking knowledge, or at least other people's opinions, and that shows a willingness to learn. You have put a lot of effort and expense into building amplifiers that you hope will be pleasant to use for many years.
I, too, have built a pair of monoblock amps (actually, many pairs of the same design with different quality components) with the help of people on this site. I live in the USA, so it is much easier and a little less expensive for me to obtain quality components to audition and use in my system. I have experimented with lots of wire types and gauges for chassis wiring, interconnects, and speaker cables, along with many types of resistors, capacitors, opamps, etc. for active and passive circuits.
I have some pieces of 24ga Neotech OCC solid copper with teflon insulation, left over from various projects. I would be willing to send you a sample, free of charge, if you promise to install the wire in one of your amplifiers with 14ga in the other. You must also promise to post the results of comparing the two sizes here. Please tell me the lengths you require and provide your mailing address. You can use private messaging if you don't feel comfortable posting that here. Simply click on madisonears.
At my previous employer, I worked with a man from Brazil. He was a very nice person who was working to improve himself and his family, and I admired his courage for coming here, learning a new language and culture, and being such a decent person. He was kind to me, and I simply want to extend similar kindness to another Brazilian and audio fool. I am also interested in getting someone's opinion, whether it does or does not agree with mine. For the time it takes to make four solder connections and zero expense, you can perform an experiment that might be useful to everyone here, but especially yourself.
If you are not interested, don't be afraid to decline my offer.
Peace,
Tom E
As mentioned previously EMC will be a concern, for really sensitive analogue my heart would say use co-ax for hook up, but twisted pair would probably be as good... It is the geometry that is as critical for maintaining signal integrity of low level analogue signals, not the material any copper wire will suffice. The quality of the copper does not influence the speed of signal transmission, other factors do, so again any copper used for decent wire will do the job.
The biggest problem encountered with wiring up any system is usually where the wire fasten to a connector or PCB, concentrate on getting a good solid joint that is not under tension. IPC-610, National Physics Lab, NASA are a good source of reference material on workmanship standards for good connections (in avionics etc these things are critical, and decades of research into transmitting signals has provided a wealth of information on interconnects and their problems.
Some notes on EMC and its affect on analogue...
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-095.pdf
The best hook up wire is non, connectors mounted directly on PCBs, minimise the number of PCBs and so for the so you can better control the signals environment.
Interconnection electronics is a serious business and is well studied, before you blindly believe some of the hype put forward on this thread, do a little further research. Cable have parasitic element's (RCL) that can be easily factored into simulations and calculations (and the results proven by observation and measurement), the results are interesting (or should I say lack of).
Some very interesting comments and views, I always wonder why the rest of the electronics world does not share them! again I find this disinformation rather sad and misleading there are so many areas that can be looked at in regards to SIGNAL INTEGRITY without resorting to cable myths.
As to the comment regarding engineers and scientists, list all the inventions that make modern life what it is, then look at who invented them.....
The biggest problem encountered with wiring up any system is usually where the wire fasten to a connector or PCB, concentrate on getting a good solid joint that is not under tension. IPC-610, National Physics Lab, NASA are a good source of reference material on workmanship standards for good connections (in avionics etc these things are critical, and decades of research into transmitting signals has provided a wealth of information on interconnects and their problems.
Some notes on EMC and its affect on analogue...
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-095.pdf
The best hook up wire is non, connectors mounted directly on PCBs, minimise the number of PCBs and so for the so you can better control the signals environment.
Interconnection electronics is a serious business and is well studied, before you blindly believe some of the hype put forward on this thread, do a little further research. Cable have parasitic element's (RCL) that can be easily factored into simulations and calculations (and the results proven by observation and measurement), the results are interesting (or should I say lack of).
Some very interesting comments and views, I always wonder why the rest of the electronics world does not share them! again I find this disinformation rather sad and misleading there are so many areas that can be looked at in regards to SIGNAL INTEGRITY without resorting to cable myths.
As to the comment regarding engineers and scientists, list all the inventions that make modern life what it is, then look at who invented them.....
Surely not. Do a quick voltage divider calculation for this application. The "skin effect" will cause a droop of roughly 0.000001dB here at 20kHz. If you can detect that at all, much less identify it as "dulling of the sound," I know how you can make a quick million dollars.
When extraordinary claims are made with no analysis and no evidence, this does no service to people who are trying to learn the basics. Stomping one's feet and sneering do not constitute evidence or analysis. They only serve to try to plunge others into the quagmire of ignorance.
If you're accusing me of "stomping my feet and sneering", SY, then you are sorely mistaken. I myself have received valuable help from diyaudio - which I value; unfortunately, I have also been slammed by people who feel that DIYAudio is a forum for SMEs - rather than those seeking to learn.
Regards,
Andy
look at the table again.
24awg for 68kHz and 0.5mm diameter copper wire, the effective resistance is shown as 84ohms per km
Take a standard 24swg 1m interconnect with 84mr of resistance in each of the Flow and return. i.e. a total of 169milli-ohms and calculate the attenuation of the LF and HF portions of the signals at the receive end of the interconnect.
Now change the cable to double the thickness, 18awg @ 20mr / m
Calculate the attenuation of the LF and HF portions of the signals at the receive end of the interconnect.
What are the difference in the relative levels of HF:LF in the thin cable (that fits with your skin depth limitation) and the thick cable?
Can you hear that difference?
Tell us again, what were the differences?
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Did you eventually identify WHY the cables produced that effect?
Was the amplifier misbehaving when either of the cables were attached?
Did you check for amplifier stability margins with either cable?
Other than your ears, did you measure anything to allow you to identify the "problem"?
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