Re: Tube variant
Hi Arjen,
Thank you for your post and interest
I am working quietly in the background on some tube ideas HOWEVER these are very much theoretical and may well not get to the trial stage any time soon.
In principle the amp can work with tubes but despite the simplicity there are a number of differences which make this not a complete one for one cut and paste.
Additionally, and rather more to the point in my case, I need to remain focused on the mosfet designs to ensure that I support those people who have already committed to build their own amplifiers.
For example I have an output transformer bobbin from Sowter (which I will have to pay for) for the Zeus 75 to test and sort out, final details in the next few days.
My time (and finances) are limited and trying to do a full scale tube development would not be possible at this time.
If you like the zeus amplifier but would prefer a tube sound then use a valve preamp. The power amps will preserve the tube quality of the sonics.
Best wishes,
Susan.
Hi Arjen,
Thank you for your post and interest
av-trouvaille said:
I am working quietly in the background on some tube ideas HOWEVER these are very much theoretical and may well not get to the trial stage any time soon.
In principle the amp can work with tubes but despite the simplicity there are a number of differences which make this not a complete one for one cut and paste.
Additionally, and rather more to the point in my case, I need to remain focused on the mosfet designs to ensure that I support those people who have already committed to build their own amplifiers.
For example I have an output transformer bobbin from Sowter (which I will have to pay for) for the Zeus 75 to test and sort out, final details in the next few days.
My time (and finances) are limited and trying to do a full scale tube development would not be possible at this time.
If you like the zeus amplifier but would prefer a tube sound then use a valve preamp. The power amps will preserve the tube quality of the sonics.
Best wishes,
Susan.
Zeus Line Driver
Dear All,
As per my previous post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=539354#post539354
I now have added a line driver page to my website:
http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus-line-driver-1.htm
THD+N at 2 V rms into 600 ohms = 0.007%
I have been driving this directly from the Emu1212 soundcard balanced line output.
BTW The Emu1212 soundcard loopback at the same output level as I was testing is also 0.007%
This line driver is used instead of for example the TI TPA6120 Headphone Amplifier or the AD815 High Output Current Differential Driver previously discussed on this thread.
Best wishes,
Susan.
Dear All,
As per my previous post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=539354#post539354
I now have added a line driver page to my website:
http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus-line-driver-1.htm
THD+N at 2 V rms into 600 ohms = 0.007%
I have been driving this directly from the Emu1212 soundcard balanced line output.
BTW The Emu1212 soundcard loopback at the same output level as I was testing is also 0.007%
This line driver is used instead of for example the TI TPA6120 Headphone Amplifier or the AD815 High Output Current Differential Driver previously discussed on this thread.
Best wishes,
Susan.
Re: Zeus Line Driver
Very cool, Susan!!!
Nifty way to drive long cables instead of using IC drivers. And maintains the "isolated box" transformer to transformer seperation that you like while ensuring no DC on the input of the amp.
Since there is a 1:2 stepup on the input, are you still using a 1:10 input transformer on the following Zeus amp, or do you drop that down to 1:5?
And, how's it sound with music?
NOTE: now I know what obsessive EE's do on their vacations
Susan-Parker said:
Very cool, Susan!!!
Nifty way to drive long cables instead of using IC drivers. And maintains the "isolated box" transformer to transformer seperation that you like while ensuring no DC on the input of the amp.
Since there is a 1:2 stepup on the input, are you still using a 1:10 input transformer on the following Zeus amp, or do you drop that down to 1:5?
And, how's it sound with music?
NOTE: now I know what obsessive EE's do on their vacations
Re: Re: Zeus Line Driver
Hi Darkmoebius,
Thank you
The step-up with the Gardners is 1:2+2 i.e. 1:4
Unlike the power amplifier's output transformer which then has a 2:1 or a 4:1 step down the line driver (for 600 ohm load) is a 1:1.
Basically if the power amp's input transformer (Sowter) is configured with the primaries in series, then one uses the line driver output in series too.
If in parallel, then the line driver output is also in parallel.
Theoretically either should be the same, but I will check this in practice to see if there are any differences.
Very good.
Guilty as charged
Best wishes,
Susan.
Hi Darkmoebius,
darkmoebius said:
Thank you
The step-up with the Gardners is 1:2+2 i.e. 1:4
Unlike the power amplifier's output transformer which then has a 2:1 or a 4:1 step down the line driver (for 600 ohm load) is a 1:1.
Basically if the power amp's input transformer (Sowter) is configured with the primaries in series, then one uses the line driver output in series too.
If in parallel, then the line driver output is also in parallel.
Theoretically either should be the same, but I will check this in practice to see if there are any differences.
Very good.
Guilty as charged
Best wishes,
Susan.
tubed version
Hello Suzan,
Thanks for your kind reply. I fully respect your current focus on the FET-design.
In fact, my drawer shows all the necessairy parts and I’ll certainly give the FET-version a try before even thinking of heading for a tubed version.
At the same time from your reply I grasp a certain growing concept of a tubed version of your zero feedback Zeus. Would it be an option to start a second thread for this some day?
Given the huge interest for your Zeus also tube-design capable members could feel invited to respond. With such resources in sight it would require much less work from you.
(I’m an economist you see).
A second thread could be opened by simply stating the ‘profile’ that a tubed version would need to meet. From there on, just wait and see who takes up the challenge.
My first contribution to such a second thread can be to look up the original article of L’Audiophile on the WE25 in my archive and post the relevant tubed schematics. Later on I could build and comment on an experimental version, as I’ve build many tubed and SS amplifiers in the past.
The moment it suits you the moderator could open such a second thread in the tubes section.
Note that I don’t want to be pushy: audio takes passion and patience, so take the rithme that suits you.
Best regards, Arjen.
Hello Suzan,
Thanks for your kind reply. I fully respect your current focus on the FET-design.
In fact, my drawer shows all the necessairy parts and I’ll certainly give the FET-version a try before even thinking of heading for a tubed version.
At the same time from your reply I grasp a certain growing concept of a tubed version of your zero feedback Zeus. Would it be an option to start a second thread for this some day?
Given the huge interest for your Zeus also tube-design capable members could feel invited to respond. With such resources in sight it would require much less work from you.
(I’m an economist you see).
A second thread could be opened by simply stating the ‘profile’ that a tubed version would need to meet. From there on, just wait and see who takes up the challenge.
My first contribution to such a second thread can be to look up the original article of L’Audiophile on the WE25 in my archive and post the relevant tubed schematics. Later on I could build and comment on an experimental version, as I’ve build many tubed and SS amplifiers in the past.
The moment it suits you the moderator could open such a second thread in the tubes section.
Note that I don’t want to be pushy: audio takes passion and patience, so take the rithme that suits you.
Best regards, Arjen.
Re: Tube Zeus
Hi Arjen,
I look forward to hearing how you get on with that
I do agree that a tube version would be very interesting and as mentioned it is something I am looking at in the background.
For the time being I would suggest that we keep any valve posts to this thread as the amplifier topology is what this is about, and the mosfets (i.e. Solid State) just happens to fit this section. Then everyone can keep up with what we are doing.
But really it's an impedance amplifier and the focus is on the way the transformers/inductors are used which in some regard would be more fitting in the tube section (except I can see some incidental problems running it there with mosfets).
Okay
Yes, so I see
Best wishes,
Susan.
Hi Arjen,
av-trouvaille said:
I look forward to hearing how you get on with that
I do agree that a tube version would be very interesting and as mentioned it is something I am looking at in the background.
For the time being I would suggest that we keep any valve posts to this thread as the amplifier topology is what this is about, and the mosfets (i.e. Solid State) just happens to fit this section. Then everyone can keep up with what we are doing.
But really it's an impedance amplifier and the focus is on the way the transformers/inductors are used which in some regard would be more fitting in the tube section (except I can see some incidental problems running it there with mosfets).
Okay
EUVL said:
Yes, so I see
Best wishes,
Susan.
Output Transformer orig. for 2x 6C33 Trioden
@susan !
Hi Everybody,
what about these Output Transformer; orig. for 2x 6C33 Trioden for the Zeus Amp ?
I found these information about the Output Transformer:
Raa = 600 Ohm (Gegentakt == push-pull)
R = 8 Ohm Out
Kern M102b
0,35 Blech
And some infos on Trioden Push-Pull Vollverstärker with the 6C33
See this picture from this PP Tube AMP:
Any comments ?
Thanks !
(This is the Transformer)
@susan !
Hi Everybody,
what about these Output Transformer; orig. for 2x 6C33 Trioden for the Zeus Amp ?
I found these information about the Output Transformer:
Raa = 600 Ohm (Gegentakt == push-pull)
R = 8 Ohm Out
Kern M102b
0,35 Blech
And some infos on Trioden Push-Pull Vollverstärker with the 6C33
See this picture from this PP Tube AMP:
Any comments ?
Thanks !
(This is the Transformer)
Attachments
Zeus 6C33C Triode Amplifier
Hi Uwe,
Thank you for your post and the info
Ah! Okay, I was hoping to have a bit more think time before getting down to details on this one
Here is my concept schematic for the tube version of the Zeus amplification stage which I mentioned in the previous post.
Note that one would use two of these stages.
Either the first as a 600 ohm line driver and the second as the power amp where the two are separate, or the first driving an interstage transformer to the second stage.
Please note that the bias and supply voltages for each stage will be different.
The "B-6C33 HiFi push pull transformer for power stages with 2 x 6C33" could be used here for T3.
Frequency Response is quoted at 20 Hz (-0.2 dB)...100 kHz (-3 dB) which is good
==== Note ====
I would however not use these transformers for the mosfet version as the step down ratio is a lot higher than that needed for the mosfets. It will work, and if you only need one or two watts for a super efficient horn speaker or headphones then should be okay.
To be honest the output transformer for the mosfet version is easy to make and if one has the skills necessary to make the amplifier then making the output transformer is not difficult - honest.
Getting the bits may be slightly awkward, but Thomas and Skinner will sell the laminations in small quantities to us direct, and enameled wire is available from several sources.
I am thinking of doing a small bulk buy on EI120 transformer bobbins (unwound) - (please let me know if you are interested) - as these are the only parts that are difficult to get hold of in ones and twos.
Even the version of the output transformer with the split bobbin can be wound by hand, and whilst identical number of turns is preferable to get the best performance one or two turns unbalance between the sides isn't a problem because of the way the primaries are wired up with half of each leg from each side.
==== End Note =====
The 6C33C power amp input/interstage transformer will need to be something like 1:20+20 just to get some some step up, which is quite a hard load to drive.
The B-6C33 output transformer is from "EXPERIENCE electronics":
http://www.experience-electronics.de/englisch/bauteile/ausgangsuebertrager.htm
... N.B. the B-6C33 info is at the bottom of this page.
Price Euro: 149 each.
In the zeus configuration with a pair of 6C33Cs I would expect to be getting about 12 watts into 8 ohms, 25 watts max.
It should be possible to prototype a single stage 6C33C amplifier using mains toroids, although the bandwidth will be much reduced (20-ish kHz max).
Please note that the zeus 6C33C tube version is very much at the formative stage in my thoughts and the schematics shown are only general arrangements and do NOT show any bias arrangements or additional components that might be required in a specific implementation.
6C33C tubes would be used for both stages - drive like with like.
Although very nice from a tube point of view the zeus 6C33C version is IMHO not going to give any better performance sonically than the mosfet version.
Okay.
The cat is out of the bag
Best wishes to everyone for 2005,
Susan.
Hi Uwe,
Thank you for your post and the info
dx.master said:
Ah! Okay, I was hoping to have a bit more think time before getting down to details on this one
Here is my concept schematic for the tube version of the Zeus amplification stage which I mentioned in the previous post.
Note that one would use two of these stages.
Either the first as a 600 ohm line driver and the second as the power amp where the two are separate, or the first driving an interstage transformer to the second stage.
Please note that the bias and supply voltages for each stage will be different.
The "B-6C33 HiFi push pull transformer for power stages with 2 x 6C33" could be used here for T3.
Frequency Response is quoted at 20 Hz (-0.2 dB)...100 kHz (-3 dB) which is good
==== Note ====
I would however not use these transformers for the mosfet version as the step down ratio is a lot higher than that needed for the mosfets. It will work, and if you only need one or two watts for a super efficient horn speaker or headphones then should be okay.
To be honest the output transformer for the mosfet version is easy to make and if one has the skills necessary to make the amplifier then making the output transformer is not difficult - honest.
Getting the bits may be slightly awkward, but Thomas and Skinner will sell the laminations in small quantities to us direct, and enameled wire is available from several sources.
I am thinking of doing a small bulk buy on EI120 transformer bobbins (unwound) - (please let me know if you are interested) - as these are the only parts that are difficult to get hold of in ones and twos.
Even the version of the output transformer with the split bobbin can be wound by hand, and whilst identical number of turns is preferable to get the best performance one or two turns unbalance between the sides isn't a problem because of the way the primaries are wired up with half of each leg from each side.
==== End Note =====
The 6C33C power amp input/interstage transformer will need to be something like 1:20+20 just to get some some step up, which is quite a hard load to drive.
The B-6C33 output transformer is from "EXPERIENCE electronics":
http://www.experience-electronics.de/englisch/bauteile/ausgangsuebertrager.htm
... N.B. the B-6C33 info is at the bottom of this page.
Price Euro: 149 each.
In the zeus configuration with a pair of 6C33Cs I would expect to be getting about 12 watts into 8 ohms, 25 watts max.
It should be possible to prototype a single stage 6C33C amplifier using mains toroids, although the bandwidth will be much reduced (20-ish kHz max).
Please note that the zeus 6C33C tube version is very much at the formative stage in my thoughts and the schematics shown are only general arrangements and do NOT show any bias arrangements or additional components that might be required in a specific implementation.
6C33C tubes would be used for both stages - drive like with like.
Although very nice from a tube point of view the zeus 6C33C version is IMHO not going to give any better performance sonically than the mosfet version.
Okay.
The cat is out of the bag
Best wishes to everyone for 2005,
Susan.
Re: Zeus 6C33C Triode Amplifier
@Susan,
many thanks for so mutch information about the Zeus Amp.
I have only build am Mosfet Zeus Amp yet.
The Output Transformer is now a (german:Ringkern-)transformer with 230V/ 2x18V/7A.
See also my Website: http://bauteile-fuer-die-elektronik.de/projekte/Zeus/project/
How mutch are the costs, can pay per PayPal and IBAN bank account?
I found these nice Push-pull Tube 6C33 Transformers for only ~ EUR 49,- !
See the Ebay the auction
And so i think don't ask why?
Now i have the answers !
Many Thanks to Susan !!
@Susan,
many thanks for so mutch information about the Zeus Amp.
I have only build am Mosfet Zeus Amp yet.
The Output Transformer is now a (german:Ringkern-)transformer with 230V/ 2x18V/7A.
See also my Website: http://bauteile-fuer-die-elektronik.de/projekte/Zeus/project/
How mutch are the costs, can pay per PayPal and IBAN bank account?
I found these nice Push-pull Tube 6C33 Transformers for only ~ EUR 49,- !
See the Ebay the auction
And so i think don't ask why?
Now i have the answers !
Many Thanks to Susan !!
Re: Zeus 6C33C Triode Amplifier
Hi Uwe
My pleasure
Ah, good. How does this sound?
Hopefully works a bit better?
I am waiting for a proper quote (should get that next week).
Probably about UKP 5.00 for two, 12.00 for six (for those who want to build a 5.1 surround system ). I have to buy a box of them as there is a minimum order charge.
Plus postage and maybe a bit for packing if I have to buy that (I have some).
I will take paypal for these (note only from a registered paypal account, not direct from a credit card as I am not a trader). Bank transfers cost so much that it isn't worth doing for small amounts like these.
Ah, okay. Now I understand where your question came from
Are you going to bid on these (only available to buyers in Germany)?
Best wishes,
Susan.
Hi Uwe
dx.master said:
My pleasure
Ah, good. How does this sound?
Hopefully works a bit better?
I am waiting for a proper quote (should get that next week).
Probably about UKP 5.00 for two, 12.00 for six (for those who want to build a 5.1 surround system
). I have to buy a box of them as there is a minimum order charge.Plus postage and maybe a bit for packing if I have to buy that (I have some).
I will take paypal for these (note only from a registered paypal account, not direct from a credit card as I am not a trader). Bank transfers cost so much that it isn't worth doing for small amounts like these.
Ah, okay. Now I understand where your question came from
Are you going to bid on these (only available to buyers in Germany)?
Best wishes,
Susan.
Re: Re: Zeus 6C33C Triode Amplifier
@Susan,
My too !
Nice, but the 100Hz noise is always there, my imput transformer (30VA, 2x12V) has now a copper screen.
See:
Yes right i have an normal paypal account.
No, you expland why not.
@Susan,
My pleasure
My too !
Nice, but the 100Hz noise is always there, my imput transformer (30VA, 2x12V) has now a copper screen.
See:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I am waiting for a proper quote (should get that next week).
Probably about UKP 5.00 for two, 12.00 for six (for those who want to build a 5.1 surround system
Plus postage and maybe a bit for packing if I have to buy that (I have some).
I will take paypal for these (note only from a registered paypal account, not direct from a credit card as I am not a trader). Bank transfers cost so much that it isn't worth doing for small amounts like these.
Yes right i have an normal paypal account.
No, you expland why not.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Zeus 6C33C Triode Amplifier
@susan,
Yes i know, they have too low spacing between each other.
The Input to the Output Transformer is only 10 cm space.
See:
And the Power Transformer has 1 inch = 2,5 cm space.
See:
I have to change, redo the DIY Test Box
.
all the best
@susan,
Yes i know, they have too low spacing between each other.
The Input to the Output Transformer is only 10 cm space.
See:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And the Power Transformer has 1 inch = 2,5 cm space.
See:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have to change, redo the DIY Test Box
.all the best
Bobbin and lamination group buy....
Count me in for both!!!!!
I spent a lot of time searching for EI-120 bobbins here in the US without luck until Mike Lefavre of Magnequest Transformers informed me that here in the US we use another system of measurement and designation for them.
Europe measures their Lams like this
The dimension table on this website lists EI-120 measuring:
"A" = 120mm =or 4.72",
"B" = 100mm or 3.93"
"C" = 40mm or 1.57"
But, according to Mike, here in the US:
So, the US equivelent would be EI-150 instead of EI-120 because of the aprroximate width of "C" in the drawing above.
We Americans always have to do things our own way
Susan-Parker said:
Count me in for both!!!!!
I spent a lot of time searching for EI-120 bobbins here in the US without luck until Mike Lefavre of Magnequest Transformers informed me that here in the US we use another system of measurement and designation for them.
Europe measures their Lams like this
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The dimension table on this website lists EI-120 measuring:
"A" = 120mm =or 4.72",
"B" = 100mm or 3.93"
"C" = 40mm or 1.57"
But, according to Mike, here in the US:
So, the US equivelent would be EI-150 instead of EI-120 because of the aprroximate width of "C" in the drawing above.
We Americans always have to do things our own way
Re: Bobbin and lamination group buy....
Hi Darkmoebius,
Thanks for that info...
Looks handy but it is possible to wind holding the bobbin in one hand and wrapping the wires with the other. Even when I am using my lathe to hold the bobbin I still tension and guide the wires with my hand.
NOTE to All: I am winding the lathe spindle by hand (do NOT do it this way if you are using a power feed of ANY type as the risk of burns is too great).
Previously I used a large hand drill held horizontally in a vice and fixed the bobbin in the chuck with a bolt and some spacers. Crude but as one only has to wind a couple of bobbins should be able to do the job okay.
Okay, I will have to double check and make sure we get the right specifications here otherwise it could be embarrassing
Type A B C Diameter E F U V W X Y No. of hole/@
EI-150B 125 150 100 8 100 125 25 25 50 25 75 2/@
EI-152.4B 127 152.4 101.6 8 101.6 127 25.4 25.4 50.8 25.4 76.2 2/@
I will double check all this and add the info to the transformer page.
At least we still use the same volts, amps, watts, etc... don't we????
Many thanks
Best wishes,
Susan.
Hi Darkmoebius,
Thanks for that info...
Looks handy but it is possible to wind holding the bobbin in one hand and wrapping the wires with the other. Even when I am using my lathe to hold the bobbin I still tension and guide the wires with my hand.
NOTE to All: I am winding the lathe spindle by hand (do NOT do it this way if you are using a power feed of ANY type as the risk of burns is too great).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Previously I used a large hand drill held horizontally in a vice and fixed the bobbin in the chuck with a bolt and some spacers. Crude but as one only has to wind a couple of bobbins should be able to do the job okay.
darkmoebius said:
Okay, I will have to double check and make sure we get the right specifications here otherwise it could be embarrassing
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Type A B C Diameter E F U V W X Y No. of hole/@
EI-150B 125 150 100 8 100 125 25 25 50 25 75 2/@
EI-152.4B 127 152.4 101.6 8 101.6 127 25.4 25.4 50.8 25.4 76.2 2/@
I will double check all this and add the info to the transformer page.
We Americans always have to do things our own way
At least we still use the same volts, amps, watts, etc... don't we????
Many thanks
Best wishes,
Susan.
Bases to the winding of transformers
@ all !
i found something more about m102b an so on..
German: Grundlagen zum Wickeln von Transformatoren
English (translatet by google): Bases to the winding of transformers
So i can learn mutch more about "winding of transformers" !
@ all !
i found something more about m102b an so on..
German: Grundlagen zum Wickeln von Transformatoren
English (translatet by google): Bases to the winding of transformers
So i can learn mutch more about "winding of transformers" !
