Thanks for the info - it's just that I've heard polar opposites about inductors & caps - some say spend more on inductors, others say go high end for caps. So I decided to split the difference and spend more on both.
Oh well - those foil inductors sure LOOK great - and the crossovers are going to be external afterall.
Oh well - those foil inductors sure LOOK great - and the crossovers are going to be external afterall.
Hey Folks,
I finished building up my set of speakers based on Zaph's writeup, here's a picture:
(More available here with captions:http://www.flickr.com/photos/thephoton/sets/72157594473521894/)
Overall I'm pleased. This was my first speaker building project and the results sound-wise are excellent. They're better in terms of clarity and quality of sound than the Bose ones I had previously, and cost significantly less. They're lacking a little bit on the bass, I feel, but I'll remedy that a few months down the road with a subwoofer - they'll certainly hold their own in the meantime.
The external finishing is OK, and looks fine from a distance of 5+ feet, but I had a bit of trouble with the endgrain of the wood. Finer grade sandpaper and some shellac, plus a few more layers of primer and topcoat paint, as well as a clearcoat probably would have remedied that, but these speakers will be put into a frequently travelled area and will probably scuff up anyway over time anyway, so I wasn't too worried about the exterior finish when making them.
I learned a good bit more about wood working that I had known before, and am confident enough now to venture into other projects and with nicer woods than MDF and to invest in some better tools.
Zaph: Thank you very much for having posted your writeup, I'm very happy with this system and appreciate you having provided the information to everyone for free.
I finished building up my set of speakers based on Zaph's writeup, here's a picture:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(More available here with captions:http://www.flickr.com/photos/thephoton/sets/72157594473521894/)
Overall I'm pleased. This was my first speaker building project and the results sound-wise are excellent. They're better in terms of clarity and quality of sound than the Bose ones I had previously, and cost significantly less. They're lacking a little bit on the bass, I feel, but I'll remedy that a few months down the road with a subwoofer - they'll certainly hold their own in the meantime.
The external finishing is OK, and looks fine from a distance of 5+ feet, but I had a bit of trouble with the endgrain of the wood. Finer grade sandpaper and some shellac, plus a few more layers of primer and topcoat paint, as well as a clearcoat probably would have remedied that, but these speakers will be put into a frequently travelled area and will probably scuff up anyway over time anyway, so I wasn't too worried about the exterior finish when making them.
I learned a good bit more about wood working that I had known before, and am confident enough now to venture into other projects and with nicer woods than MDF and to invest in some better tools.
Zaph: Thank you very much for having posted your writeup, I'm very happy with this system and appreciate you having provided the information to everyone for free.
Troubles with the BAM MTM
I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
Attachments
Re: Troubles with the BAM MTM
What's the rest of your system? What is your comparison speakers?
I recently bought a Zaph BAMTM from a posting on diyAudio, and they do quite well in my system.
docrw said:I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
What's the rest of your system? What is your comparison speakers?
I recently bought a Zaph BAMTM from a posting on diyAudio, and they do quite well in my system.
Re: Troubles with the BAM MTM
Just a dumb question here - Are you absolutely certain that the phase of the two mid drivers is correct?
docrw said:I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
Just a dumb question here - Are you absolutely certain that the phase of the two mid drivers is correct?
Troubles with the BAM MTM (shrill)
I'd certainly like to share with you what I did. I have pics of the Xover and had two other people look at it and they say it's right. The speaker is quite shrill 'to me' and Zaph says "you really don't need a sub" and this thing isn't even close to full range 'to me'. The really doesn't have much range until it's turned up a ways, and I have PLENTY of power to run it so that's not the problem. I've tried two different tweeters I have here and both sounded better, but think the think the 27BTF is a fine tweet. I've padded the crap out of it for testing (all the way to 12 ohms), but it sounds to me as if the woofer is crossed over to high. PS I have Dalquist, MA GS-20, and two other DIY's and to McCauley 12" sub's I've built, but am not using them for this testing.
Send any crossover pics you might have so I can see what you're saying.
docrw@yahoo.com I'll send pics
David
I'd certainly like to share with you what I did. I have pics of the Xover and had two other people look at it and they say it's right. The speaker is quite shrill 'to me' and Zaph says "you really don't need a sub" and this thing isn't even close to full range 'to me'. The really doesn't have much range until it's turned up a ways, and I have PLENTY of power to run it so that's not the problem. I've tried two different tweeters I have here and both sounded better, but think the think the 27BTF is a fine tweet. I've padded the crap out of it for testing (all the way to 12 ohms), but it sounds to me as if the woofer is crossed over to high. PS I have Dalquist, MA GS-20, and two other DIY's and to McCauley 12" sub's I've built, but am not using them for this testing.
Send any crossover pics you might have so I can see what you're saying.
docrw@yahoo.com I'll send pics
David
kristleifur said:
Re: Troubles with the BAM MTM
That's a shame. I also suspect something is mechanically wrong, or that maybe you were over-optimistic about its max SPL. My own experience with the BAMTMs has been positive. Over the long weekend I listened to them extensively, in place of a pair of Eosone RSF-400s. Now that the fun is over I put the RSF-400s back and I can say that I prefer the BAMTMs. This test also reminded me that my HT receiver is not very good.
My thanks to John (Zaph) not only for making his designs public, but for documenting everything so well.
docrw said:I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
That's a shame. I also suspect something is mechanically wrong, or that maybe you were over-optimistic about its max SPL. My own experience with the BAMTMs has been positive. Over the long weekend I listened to them extensively, in place of a pair of Eosone RSF-400s. Now that the fun is over I put the RSF-400s back and I can say that I prefer the BAMTMs. This test also reminded me that my HT receiver is not very good.
My thanks to John (Zaph) not only for making his designs public, but for documenting everything so well.
Attachments
Troubles with the BAM MTM
I'm more than willing to find that I did something wrong, since that would salvage all the work I put into these. I do have some RS 12" that I was going to put in the bottom since it's going to need it.
This may all be expectation, but since I've listened to many high end speakers such as Sonus, that make some tremdous sound from a 5" mid woof I would expect these to be at least pretty good and to me there not. I posted the Xover pick for you guys, this was before I changed it and also have the two (white resistors removed). I do hope you see something wrong.
I'm more than willing to find that I did something wrong, since that would salvage all the work I put into these. I do have some RS 12" that I was going to put in the bottom since it's going to need it.
This may all be expectation, but since I've listened to many high end speakers such as Sonus, that make some tremdous sound from a 5" mid woof I would expect these to be at least pretty good and to me there not. I posted the Xover pick for you guys, this was before I changed it and also have the two (white resistors removed). I do hope you see something wrong.
jcandy said:
That's a shame. I also suspect something is mechanically wrong, or that maybe you were over-optimistic about its max SPL. My own experience with the BAMTMs has been positive. Over the long weekend I listened to them extensively, in place of a pair of Eosone RSF-400s. Now that the fun is over I put the RSF-400s back and I can say that I prefer the BAMTMs. This test also reminded me that my HT receiver is not very good.
My thanks to John (Zaph) not only for making his designs public, but for documenting everything so well.
Re: Troubles with the BAM MTM
You can measure the impedance using the free version of ARTA, a few alligator clip wires, and a resistor. If you do that, we can help you figure out if the crossover is right, most likely. If you measure them with a mic, that would be even better.
I don't like most speakers, and I hate shrill sounding tweeters. For instance, I find high end B&W speakers give me a headache within minutes.
I have a pair of BAMTMs I built, I made the smaller sealed version. The sound is pretty smooth, the frequency response remarkably flat. I can say, at least they don't give me a headache when I listen to them (though, I have to include the disclaimer that I used the 27TDFC tweeters rather than the 27TBCF/G as specified).
I think they would probably sound pretty good with the low end supplemented with some quality bass, or, maybe even if they were just the vented version (not sure).
Did you make some BAMTMs?
docrw said:I've built the Zaph BAM MTM and I didn't like them at all! I'm still trying to get it fixed so I can listen to them. I ran it by a friend, (Since John won't except emails) and he found a problem in the Xover with the mid and tweet over lapping to much so I mad the change and it was better but still not what I'd hoped for. I build the taller cabs so I could add subs if needed and IT NEEDS A SUB of some kind. I find the speaker quite shrill and harsh to listen to and even after padding the tweeter way down (as much as 12 ohms) to make it sufferable, it still isn't a speaker I would ever tell someone to build.
You can measure the impedance using the free version of ARTA, a few alligator clip wires, and a resistor. If you do that, we can help you figure out if the crossover is right, most likely. If you measure them with a mic, that would be even better.
I don't like most speakers, and I hate shrill sounding tweeters. For instance, I find high end B&W speakers give me a headache within minutes.
I have a pair of BAMTMs I built, I made the smaller sealed version. The sound is pretty smooth, the frequency response remarkably flat. I can say, at least they don't give me a headache when I listen to them (though, I have to include the disclaimer that I used the 27TDFC tweeters rather than the 27TBCF/G as specified).
I think they would probably sound pretty good with the low end supplemented with some quality bass, or, maybe even if they were just the vented version (not sure).
sdclc126 said:
Did you make some BAMTMs?
Measuring BAM MTM with ARTA
Hello,
Are you talking True RTA? It sounds like you are, and I've never used anything like that, so there would be a learning curve. If you don't mind could you post some graphs of your findings? Did you make any adjustments to your Xovers? How much is your box stuffed?
If you don't like B&W speakers and like these then there MUST be something wrong with what I have. I would be jazzed to have anything close to a B&W... This being said it would surprise me if the speaker worked at all if I messed up the wiring. I also don't think your tweeter and mine are going to be that much different in overall sound quality. I really hope I get this thing fixed to wear I like it. I posted the original xover for an easy comparison to my xover picture a few posts up from this one and also in the post.
Thanks for your comments critofur
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM-crossover.gif
Hello,
Are you talking True RTA? It sounds like you are, and I've never used anything like that, so there would be a learning curve. If you don't mind could you post some graphs of your findings? Did you make any adjustments to your Xovers? How much is your box stuffed?
If you don't like B&W speakers and like these then there MUST be something wrong with what I have. I would be jazzed to have anything close to a B&W... This being said it would surprise me if the speaker worked at all if I messed up the wiring. I also don't think your tweeter and mine are going to be that much different in overall sound quality. I really hope I get this thing fixed to wear I like it. I posted the original xover for an easy comparison to my xover picture a few posts up from this one and also in the post.
Thanks for your comments critofur
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM-crossover.gif
critofur said:
I made this design last summer and am thrilled with them. I made the sealed version with about 32 L cabinets. I origionally planned to use them with a sub, but I have not finished it yet. In the meantime I have used it in a small room-12x16. I don't play loud but like bass.I drive it with a Windows XP system, using Windows Media Player. It has a Graphic Equalizer with the lowest point at 31 hz. I have had good results bumping it 5db. Distortion, according to Zaph, starts over 20 watts power. I think I am well below that, so, the sound is great. With the bump in the low end and room gain, I am getting good output in the low end, down to 30hz or so. So far I have noticed no distortion.
X-over change on the Zaph BAM MTM
I also bought subs the other day for the sides since I built the larger cab also. I want to wait till I see if there is something wrong with the Xovers before routing these nice cabs. I sure wish someone near me built these speakers so I could hear them against mine. Maybe I had more of an expectation of them being better than are are capable of being. The way I feel about it is, if you don't like listening to them it doesn't matter how inexpensive they are to build. Next time around I want something spectacular or nothing at all. If I could duplicate my Monitor Audio's I'd be very happy. If you're able to get down to 31Hz then I except there is something wrong with my Xover. Funny thing is we look at the design and changed one Xover and it sounds better then the original does...
I also bought subs the other day for the sides since I built the larger cab also. I want to wait till I see if there is something wrong with the Xovers before routing these nice cabs. I sure wish someone near me built these speakers so I could hear them against mine. Maybe I had more of an expectation of them being better than are are capable of being. The way I feel about it is, if you don't like listening to them it doesn't matter how inexpensive they are to build. Next time around I want something spectacular or nothing at all. If I could duplicate my Monitor Audio's I'd be very happy. If you're able to get down to 31Hz then I except there is something wrong with my Xover. Funny thing is we look at the design and changed one Xover and it sounds better then the original does...
bobhowell said:
I have checked and the lowest notes I can identify are bass fiddle, which start at 40hz up I see. They sound very low and are clear, so that is best I can confirm. I have heard drums and other notes low, but don't know the hz, for sure. I have got a spike at something higher that hurts my ears. Room spike, I am sure. I don't have equipment to measure this better.
BAM MTM Crossover change (see)
OK, to everyone who's following this thread on the Zaph BAM MTM I've checked the original Zaph X over design that I wired and it was indeed correct thou I did find one tweeter out of phase, but it didn't really change the sound much. And as I stated before I ran this a crossed someone who went thru the driver spec etc. and his program showed a flaw in Zaph's schematic. I made the change and the speaker did sound somewhat better, slightly deeper bass, more articulate, but the tweeter was even louder (note that the tweet resistor was not in the design) which would explain that. He tweaked it a bit more which I still need to try and report back on, but it shows a little less over lap in the region in which sound is kinda painful. I still don't know how builders got good bass in a sealed box, or even vented for that matter.
Posted is a picture I just took of the changed Xover with only a .5 ohmR in place. I'd like to post the word document but don't know how to do that in here, so I'm posting the print with values.
TWEETER SHIFTED: 2/2009 Adam
2-Way Crossover Network
C1 = 5 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00705 ohms
C2 = 31 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00443 ohms
C3 = 31 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00466 ohms
L1 = 0.33 mH, Air Core(#16), 0.29 ohms
L2 = 0.5 mH, Air Core(#16), 0.275 ohms
Tweeter L-Pad: 2.50 dB
Rp1 = 2 ohms Rp2 = 0 ohms
OK, to everyone who's following this thread on the Zaph BAM MTM I've checked the original Zaph X over design that I wired and it was indeed correct thou I did find one tweeter out of phase, but it didn't really change the sound much. And as I stated before I ran this a crossed someone who went thru the driver spec etc. and his program showed a flaw in Zaph's schematic. I made the change and the speaker did sound somewhat better, slightly deeper bass, more articulate, but the tweeter was even louder (note that the tweet resistor was not in the design) which would explain that. He tweaked it a bit more which I still need to try and report back on, but it shows a little less over lap in the region in which sound is kinda painful. I still don't know how builders got good bass in a sealed box, or even vented for that matter.
Posted is a picture I just took of the changed Xover with only a .5 ohmR in place. I'd like to post the word document but don't know how to do that in here, so I'm posting the print with values.
TWEETER SHIFTED: 2/2009 Adam
2-Way Crossover Network
C1 = 5 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00705 ohms
C2 = 31 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00443 ohms
C3 = 31 µF, Polypropylene, 0.00466 ohms
L1 = 0.33 mH, Air Core(#16), 0.29 ohms
L2 = 0.5 mH, Air Core(#16), 0.275 ohms
Tweeter L-Pad: 2.50 dB
Rp1 = 2 ohms Rp2 = 0 ohms
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