Hi Spartacus, yes, partly. I don't take a design for granted and I won't be misled by fancy measurements. Too often measurements are used to justify not looking any deeper. I took a closer look at the design, which I think is still charming in concept, but I found the analog pin connected to DVDD, so I tried the capacitor. Because I wanted to know the workings further, I found that the device is running a non-related clock, and thus jitter math isn't correct. This design can be bettered.
I suppose that all yours conclusions are based on listening, not measuring.. very professional approach..
If this design as you say can be bettered, can you tell us which one is better.. or you can make better one, with all that thinking and knowledge about this matter that will be game for you..
Please calm down everybody, it doesn't seem to me that this thread is getting much towards a constructive debate...
It doesn't need to attack each other sarcastically and personally, just let's try the proposed mod and let's talk about the results - but only after listening, as the subject is really vast and it's not easy to judge on a simple theory base.
If NinoSimona spotted a real - even if minor - fault in this board's design, everyone should only thank him, first of all the designer himself: i'm sure he only wants to help.
I agree that measurement can often be confusing: who really can say to know what exactly has to be measured that can influence sound quality in every aspect - and nothing else? I think nobody in this world, otherwise we would have the PERFECT sound system yet...
So only after a number of people agree or disagree with NinoSimona findings we can have a trustable idea of his mod's validity.
It doesn't need to attack each other sarcastically and personally, just let's try the proposed mod and let's talk about the results - but only after listening, as the subject is really vast and it's not easy to judge on a simple theory base.
If NinoSimona spotted a real - even if minor - fault in this board's design, everyone should only thank him, first of all the designer himself: i'm sure he only wants to help.
I agree that measurement can often be confusing: who really can say to know what exactly has to be measured that can influence sound quality in every aspect - and nothing else? I think nobody in this world, otherwise we would have the PERFECT sound system yet...
So only after a number of people agree or disagree with NinoSimona findings we can have a trustable idea of his mod's validity.
The problem is that perfect for me might not be perfect for you. Measurements can be confusing, especially for people who don't quite understand them, but subjective, sighted listening impressions tend to be even more confusing, because you don't have any reference, and confirmation bias and groupthink are often much stronger factors than any real differences in sound quality.
While the idea of independent confirmation is a good one, the problem is that it is hard to make it truly independent - people tend to be rather strongly influenced by each other.
@Julf: I proposed adding a capacitor, the simplest thing you could do is just that and listen if you like the effect or not, fine with me.
But that seems not to be the problem here, the problem is you need a measurement* to act, because you don't trust your own perception (*as long as the measurement convinces you, it doesn't have to measure the right thing either). So basically you need a machine to decide what to do or not.
What machine told you to buy this USB interface? Maybe because you invested some money in this, you can't have a reliable independent listening impression either...
But that seems not to be the problem here, the problem is you need a measurement* to act, because you don't trust your own perception (*as long as the measurement convinces you, it doesn't have to measure the right thing either). So basically you need a machine to decide what to do or not.
What machine told you to buy this USB interface? Maybe because you invested some money in this, you can't have a reliable independent listening impression either...
Joro explains that adding capacitor doesn't make difference..
What do you want more?!
I told you before, make your own device, with your thinking and knowledge abut this matter that will be game for you..
Perception is subjective, measurements are objective, it is very simple to understand that..
It is impossible that everyone are right..
NinoSimona doesn't spotted fault in design, his mod isn't valid, you have Joro's explanation..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/236028-xmos-dsd-384-khz-32bit-usb-59.html#post4557179
Measurements in themselves are objective, but the choice of what to measure and measurements data interpretation are not so objective as well.
Nothing is really objective in this world, everyting has to pass through human perception and judgement anyway. The total, Absolute Truth has never been established yet, only fanatics think that way!
I didn't buy my hifi system based on measurements but in listenings test: i think the majority of you did the same. My system has to please me, it's a leisure. Is this objective? So please make some listening test, not only measurements, if you want to reach real listening pleasure.
Nothing in this world that pass through human perception isn't objective..
I don't have any use of someone's listening experience, but measurements sometimes can be useful..
So you think your subjective perception is an absolute reference? Isn't that the definition of solipsism?
Remember Richard Feynman's excellent quote "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool."
The key word is "independent". I guess that is a logical impossibility in a solipsist universe.
I suggest watching this video with Penn Jillette, he does a great job of explaining why you can't debate anything with a subjectivist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpNRw7snmGM
@Luca: You said that right!
@Julf: No I don't think subjective perception is an absolute reference, I never said that. I have no problem with measuring, as long as it serves the right purpose. You can act first, have a subjective impression, and then try to confirm or understand it with measurements. But what you want is measurements first (from me), than act and have a subjective impression. This way you'll never find something new, because you subjectively decided what to measure in the first place. This is exactly the problem with so many so-called scientific research. I think it's rather silly you bought this board without the need for measurements first, and now you demand from me measurements regarding a mod which will cost you almost nothing!
If you feel assured and more satisfied with joros measurements, than don't do the mod, it's not for you (and as a bonus your subjective impression will improve by even doing nothing)
@Julf: No I don't think subjective perception is an absolute reference, I never said that. I have no problem with measuring, as long as it serves the right purpose. You can act first, have a subjective impression, and then try to confirm or understand it with measurements. But what you want is measurements first (from me), than act and have a subjective impression. This way you'll never find something new, because you subjectively decided what to measure in the first place. This is exactly the problem with so many so-called scientific research. I think it's rather silly you bought this board without the need for measurements first, and now you demand from me measurements regarding a mod which will cost you almost nothing!
If you feel assured and more satisfied with joros measurements, than don't do the mod, it's not for you (and as a bonus your subjective impression will improve by even doing nothing)
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Funny enough, the only reason we can listen to a recording of a music performance remotely is thanks to so-called scientific research.
You clearly missed my point, how typical of your arrogance...Codswallop
Especially the comment about scientific research, typical audiophile answer...
And can we please have a discussion based on facts rather than personal insults?
I did try and make my answer a bit humorous, hence the archaic word used, if I offended I am sorry, but playing about with digital does need thought and measurement, that is the nature of the beast, signal integrity and EMC issues (two sides of the same coin) have to be investigated properly with digital, just my view gained by what I have seen in digital design.... I don't agree with the just adding bits because I can approach then claiming an improvement, with power supplies for digital we are in an interesting world (as we are in all power supplies) where engineering has to be used to create a decent stable power supply, a good supply alleviates possible problems down the line... Just adding a cap here or there has to be quantified both before with some thought and research and after with measurement....
What I do believe in is a well engineered PSU for any circuit, get that right and the rest is easier and often PSUs will be more costly than some of the other circuitry, if for no other reason than component sizes and voltage rating...
To give an indication the PSU layout I am working on now is a 3 week project, the last one for the same overall job was a 4 week layout... striving for the best possible results so every aspect will be looked at in detail, one of the logic boards took a couple of weeks even though the component count was far greater...
What I do believe in is a well engineered PSU for any circuit, get that right and the rest is easier and often PSUs will be more costly than some of the other circuitry, if for no other reason than component sizes and voltage rating...
To give an indication the PSU layout I am working on now is a 3 week project, the last one for the same overall job was a 4 week layout... striving for the best possible results so every aspect will be looked at in detail, one of the logic boards took a couple of weeks even though the component count was far greater...
I still believe in tweaking
Do anyone remember YockoHomo, ThorstenL, CarlosFM, Al Sekela, Unclestu and many other legendary guys on this and other forums as well?
Besides their unquestionable knowledge and experience, you could learn from them and apply some excellent tweaks that were very logical by explanation itself although not always covered with some accompanying measurements.
One of the best tweaks I have tried so far can be applied to both digital and analog components.
It is called Battery Ground Tweak (BGT).
Do search it on AA Tweakers Asylum about the implementation but you can also find it as a settled text at this link Battery Ground Tweak (BGT) - audiodirection
If properly implemented, you will experience a significant improvement, particularly at the source side, be it digital or analog or both.
Were there any measurements in that context? No.
Were there any related explanations? Well, mostly general assumptions.
Do I care for that? Not much.
I am a happy user and like to share the experience with other people.
I have tried a plenty of tweaks in these 15 years and my findings were not always the same as others.
If you are not sure about the end result give up that particular tweak. Simply as that.
I do appreciate Yoro's work and there is nothing wrong with this product. I own one and plan to purchase the another one.
I do believe in tweaks and shall try the suggested capacitor one day.
Apologize to all, I won't discuss about this issue any more.
Do anyone remember YockoHomo, ThorstenL, CarlosFM, Al Sekela, Unclestu and many other legendary guys on this and other forums as well?
Besides their unquestionable knowledge and experience, you could learn from them and apply some excellent tweaks that were very logical by explanation itself although not always covered with some accompanying measurements.
One of the best tweaks I have tried so far can be applied to both digital and analog components.
It is called Battery Ground Tweak (BGT).
Do search it on AA Tweakers Asylum about the implementation but you can also find it as a settled text at this link Battery Ground Tweak (BGT) - audiodirection
If properly implemented, you will experience a significant improvement, particularly at the source side, be it digital or analog or both.
Were there any measurements in that context? No.
Were there any related explanations? Well, mostly general assumptions.
Do I care for that? Not much.
I am a happy user and like to share the experience with other people.
I have tried a plenty of tweaks in these 15 years and my findings were not always the same as others.
If you are not sure about the end result give up that particular tweak. Simply as that.
I do appreciate Yoro's work and there is nothing wrong with this product. I own one and plan to purchase the another one.
I do believe in tweaks and shall try the suggested capacitor one day.
Apologize to all, I won't discuss about this issue any more.
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