I'll be honest with you and say that I don't think there will ever be a product that is perfect for everyone. Electrical engineering is very much about making trade-offs between features, perfomance, price and complexity and at some point this must be accepted. I'm not saying it's not possible to increase the XO footprint size to accomodate for other clocks, but this might come at a price such as lowering the performance of the smaller footprint clocks because of added trace inducatance. Or making the PCB more complex, adding cost or lowering signal integrity around the XO, etc.
Furthermore, NDK clocks have excellent performance and they have some models that actually outperform the Crystek counterparts in terms of phase noise for example. So why do people feel the need to switch to them?
Probably today is Christmas for me as I received a gift from Santa (China) 
PCB could be made better but, finally, it's soldering time... for another type of WaveIO, of course!
P.S. I'll be back later and answer to all your questions... now I'm eager to get some white smoke from this little card!
PCB could be made better but, finally, it's soldering time... for another type of WaveIO, of course!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
P.S. I'll be back later and answer to all your questions... now I'm eager to get some white smoke from this little card!
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Lucian:
Congratulations on getting your new PCBs!
I must say that this brings up some questions. And please, I mean no offense and do not wish to second guess how you plan your products or run your business. You have many happy customers out here. I--and maybe others--are just getting a bit confused.
1) The PCB images appear to be of the new card you are working on--WaveIO "Note"--and not the daughter board for original WaveIO. Correct?
2) Since you previously explained that the daughter board will have some pads which have to be soldered to original WaveIO--also giving the impression that original WaveIO owners may want to send back their boards to have DB installed (a challenge in and out of Romania, and a lot of extra hand labor soldering for you)--why offer the offer the DB at all?
a) Your products are always so reasonably priced;
b) You appear to be further along with new "Note" board than with daughter board (I have not seen any images of DB, and just yesterday you decided to add S/PDIF--so more work).
c) It would seem likely that some people will experience small technical issues with DB (nothing ever goes perfectly for all users).
d) More of your time and energy will be spent of WaveIO/DB combo--manufacturing, updating, supporting, etc.
3) So unless WaveIO/DB combo will offer some performance that is more advanced than upcoming "Note"; and unless "Note" will be significantly more expensive than WaveIO/DB, or be harder to install in place of original WaveIO; then why not just concentrate on finishing "Note" and getting production and sales of that board?
I personally would rather purchase a product that is the sum of all a designer's current thinking and refinement--a clean and optimized design--rather than an update to an earlier design with the compromises and accommodations that may require (especially since the DB does not sound like something you just send out for a user to plug onto the original card--it all has to go back).
I know that some of what I say and ask above may be wrong. This is in part because we do not know all there is to know about either the daughter board or the new WaveIO "Note" product. Of course it your right and smart sense to keep secret some details of the new product until it is ready. But when you show us PCB images of it ahead of what we have been expecting soon (the DB), it creates speculation and doubt. That is why I pose the above questions and suggestions.
Those of us who have been using the WaveIO (and those waiting to try one) all wish for your success. We are as patient as we can be, yet we want to purchase the best product that makes the most sense for our application.
Bottom line: Fill that "Note" board with parts, tell us what it will do, and sell us the latest and greatest as soon as it is ready!
Most sincerely,
ALEX C.
Congratulations on getting your new PCBs!
I must say that this brings up some questions. And please, I mean no offense and do not wish to second guess how you plan your products or run your business. You have many happy customers out here. I--and maybe others--are just getting a bit confused.
1) The PCB images appear to be of the new card you are working on--WaveIO "Note"--and not the daughter board for original WaveIO. Correct?
2) Since you previously explained that the daughter board will have some pads which have to be soldered to original WaveIO--also giving the impression that original WaveIO owners may want to send back their boards to have DB installed (a challenge in and out of Romania, and a lot of extra hand labor soldering for you)--why offer the offer the DB at all?
a) Your products are always so reasonably priced;
b) You appear to be further along with new "Note" board than with daughter board (I have not seen any images of DB, and just yesterday you decided to add S/PDIF--so more work).
c) It would seem likely that some people will experience small technical issues with DB (nothing ever goes perfectly for all users).
d) More of your time and energy will be spent of WaveIO/DB combo--manufacturing, updating, supporting, etc.
3) So unless WaveIO/DB combo will offer some performance that is more advanced than upcoming "Note"; and unless "Note" will be significantly more expensive than WaveIO/DB, or be harder to install in place of original WaveIO; then why not just concentrate on finishing "Note" and getting production and sales of that board?
I personally would rather purchase a product that is the sum of all a designer's current thinking and refinement--a clean and optimized design--rather than an update to an earlier design with the compromises and accommodations that may require (especially since the DB does not sound like something you just send out for a user to plug onto the original card--it all has to go back).
I know that some of what I say and ask above may be wrong. This is in part because we do not know all there is to know about either the daughter board or the new WaveIO "Note" product. Of course it your right and smart sense to keep secret some details of the new product until it is ready. But when you show us PCB images of it ahead of what we have been expecting soon (the DB), it creates speculation and doubt. That is why I pose the above questions and suggestions.
Those of us who have been using the WaveIO (and those waiting to try one) all wish for your success. We are as patient as we can be, yet we want to purchase the best product that makes the most sense for our application.
Bottom line: Fill that "Note" board with parts, tell us what it will do, and sell us the latest and greatest as soon as it is ready!
Most sincerely,
ALEX C.
A lot of questions and only few answers... so far
Before taking any further decisions, please let me finish this new card and see it fully functional. Until then it's just a prototype that still have high chances to be redesigned.
Given this, all the products I made, without exception, have at their base, this particular experience which became a principle to me. Perhaps healing souls is a way better job to me than gathering money
Kind regards,
L
Let's hope not still if I have to make it as larger as WaveIO to catch all my new ideas then I'll do it gladly.
I was thinking to bring both worlds together: those who love to have SPDIF and those who don't like it. I mean, the parts related to SPDIF can be left aside if this protocol is not used anymore or the whole SPDIF stage be disabled by a jumper. Anyway, the second option is not so good as it will involve extra costs either way.
Yes, it will have isolators between XMOS and the clocks.
Please do take a look at my first post of this thread and see if your card has the revision 0x0331 or higher. I should update those infos still, if you run into troubles or things are not going as described just PM me.
I'm fully agree with Emphrygian here but for the Crystek lovers (me among them, even if I didn't use their products so far), the footprint will be on the DB as well
Thank you! There's no smell so far as I have to wait for few parts that I forgot about
Before taking any further decisions, please let me finish this new card and see it fully functional. Until then it's just a prototype that still have high chances to be redesigned. Noted, thank you!I already want one!
Let us know whats new with this new version
Ciao!
Do
Thank you and no offense are taken!
Yes.
I experienced a moment in my youth, when I had ~18 years old, a moment fully tied to music. Maybe it's not fancy for most of us but was deep and obviously, profound to me. I had a chance at that time (a small one, giving the circumstances) to listen to Luciano Pavarotti on a highly respected audio chain. I cant remember the details (what loudspeakers, transport and so on).. I don't even remember the song as I was pretty shocked by what I heard. Nevertheless, I do remember the feeling! It ended up with few tears on that day and many years of debates regarding conscience, soul and other related 'stuff'. Hmm, all that from a simple song
Given this, all the products I made, without exception, have at their base, this particular experience which became a principle to me. Perhaps healing souls is a way better job to me than gathering money
Perhaps...
The only reason for which DB was delayed was because of this "Note" card. Even if I can be focused on more than one project at a time the results became "commercial" (whatever that means to me) and is not what I expect to be!
I don't design perfect products (nor I want it to)! but please allow me the time needed to finish DB and then we could speak about its flaws later
I am fully aware of that, thank you! Even so, I still want to do it!
Note is close to finish. If it will not work now due to all kind of reasons then I'll drop the project until DB will be ready.
Agree with you to some extent.
I'll do Alex, that's a promise! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
Kind regards,
L
I experienced a moment in my youth, when I had ~18 years old, a moment fully tied to music. Maybe it's not fancy for most of us but was deep and obviously, profound to me. I had a chance at that time (a small one, giving the circumstances) to listen to Luciano Pavarotti on a highly respected audio chain. I cant remember the details (what loudspeakers, transport and so on).. I don't even remember the song as I was pretty shocked by what I heard. Nevertheless, I do remember the feeling! It ended up with few tears on that day and many years of debates regarding conscience, soul and other related 'stuff'. Hmm, all that from a simple song
Given this, all the products I made, without exception, have at their base, this particular experience which became a principle to me. Perhaps healing souls is a way better job to me than gathering money
I felt touched by your words, Lucian, and kind of suspected that there was such a motivation behind the scenes. That is why I respect your work so much.
warm regards
Pepe
Thank you Lorien!
I wanted to ask if there is a GB for the new WaveIO board availavle yet?! I Dont want to miss it. I want to have I2S and SPDIF! Looking forward to your experience reports regarding the new Board!
Cant wait to add it to my DIY Music streamer based on a Dockstar and Debian Wheezy + MPD
thank you very much!
Greetings ron
I wanted to ask if there is a GB for the new WaveIO board availavle yet?! I Dont want to miss it. I want to have I2S and SPDIF! Looking forward to your experience reports regarding the new Board!
Cant wait to add it to my DIY Music streamer based on a Dockstar and Debian Wheezy + MPD
thank you very much!
Greetings ron
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Dear Lucian:
Thank you so VERY much for taking all that time to answer my many questions. I believe it was probably worth it since most are things many of your followers are wondering about.
A very few comments below your answers:
I do think ability to power-off/silence SPDIF circuitry is important as my engineers tell me it can add noise on the ground plane.
Wonderful. I will be fascinated to see how you can alter the whole architecture of the WaveIO with a daughter board. I guess they will be VERY close, mother and daughter, with connections between in multiple places. Seems a lot of work but we all applaud you for it!
Sorry, I never thought to look and see all those updates at the first post! My board (based on looking at revisions with my Mac OS X machine) appears to be rev. 3.30, so I guess no 384K for me until DB. That's okay.
Wow, that is great news too. By the way, someone else here also mentioned liking some of the NDK clocks. My WaveIO currently has Fox XpressO, which is fine, but I would appreciate knowing exactly which NDK series you find has low phase noise at the reasonable price. I may want to get some for another project.
Very moving, thank you. Indeed, I think such experiences are why many of us got started--along this endless path--at a young age. Crazy, but I have many pictures from my parents of me from age 2-8, either sitting in rapture or clapping, in front of my dad's Fisher 500C. I began hanging around hi-fi stores at 10; then lied about my age to get a job helping in a high-end audio service department at age 13. There is much more to the story, but I'll stop there.
I know you will keep everyone posted on the progress with both the WaveIO/DB and the new WaveIO Note. Good luck with both!
--Alex
Thank you so VERY much for taking all that time to answer my many questions. I believe it was probably worth it since most are things many of your followers are wondering about.
A very few comments below your answers:
I do think ability to power-off/silence SPDIF circuitry is important as my engineers tell me it can add noise on the ground plane.
Wonderful. I will be fascinated to see how you can alter the whole architecture of the WaveIO with a daughter board. I guess they will be VERY close, mother and daughter, with connections between in multiple places. Seems a lot of work but we all applaud you for it!
Sorry, I never thought to look and see all those updates at the first post! My board (based on looking at revisions with my Mac OS X machine) appears to be rev. 3.30, so I guess no 384K for me until DB. That's okay.
I'm fully agree with Emphrygian here but for the Crystek lovers (me among them, even if I didn't use their products so far), the footprint will be on the DB as well
Wow, that is great news too. By the way, someone else here also mentioned liking some of the NDK clocks. My WaveIO currently has Fox XpressO, which is fine, but I would appreciate knowing exactly which NDK series you find has low phase noise at the reasonable price. I may want to get some for another project.
I experienced a moment in my youth, when I had ~18 years old, a moment fully tied to music. Maybe it's not fancy for most of us but was deep and obviously, profound to me. I had a chance at that time (a small one, giving the circumstances) to listen to Luciano Pavarotti on a highly respected audio chain. I cant remember the details (what loudspeakers, transport and so on).. I don't even remember the song as I was pretty shocked by what I heard. Nevertheless, I do remember the feeling! It ended up with few tears on that day and many years of debates regarding conscience, soul and other related 'stuff'. Hmm, all that from a simple song
Given this, all the products I made, without exception, have at their base, this particular experience which became a principle to me. Perhaps healing souls is a way better job to me than gathering money
L
Very moving, thank you. Indeed, I think such experiences are why many of us got started--along this endless path--at a young age. Crazy, but I have many pictures from my parents of me from age 2-8, either sitting in rapture or clapping, in front of my dad's Fisher 500C. I began hanging around hi-fi stores at 10; then lied about my age to get a job helping in a high-end audio service department at age 13. There is much more to the story, but I'll stop there.
I know you will keep everyone posted on the progress with both the WaveIO/DB and the new WaveIO Note. Good luck with both!
--Alex
Which models are close to CCHD-957?
Dear Lorien I hope you would also answer to my doubts I posted earlier
BTW which model of NDK is used in WaveIO board?
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Hi,
My board has also 330, but ask Lucian for an update. Hope that my board is on the way back to me and the shipping will be fast.
Lucian, thanks for your support!
Regards Carsten
My board has also 330, but ask Lucian for an update.
Hope that my board is on the way back to me and the shipping will be fast. Lucian, thanks for your support!
Regards Carsten
+1.
And where can I buy them from a stocking distributor at 22.5792 and 24.576MHz? So often there are interesting, reasonably prices clocks to try (Pletronics?, Vectron, NEL, NDK) that end up being custom order only, with MOQ of 100-1000 pcs.
zibra and Superdad:
The NZ2520SD series is what you want to look at. It's "only" rated 50 ppm, but the phase noise is excellent. See below image (red line).
Granted, this is for the 22.5792 MHz part, but I expect the general performance goes for the entire series. If you compare it the the CCHD-957 22.5792 MHz part you'll see that it's at -97dBc/Hz at 10Hz, while the NDK is about 15dB better. The Crysteks are better as at high frequency deviation, but I don't think that's relevant in this implementation (correct me if I'm wrong here). Also note that the NDK graph extends a full decade lower than the Crystek graphs.
I can't say much about availability, but if you're interested in getting a few, try to contact chip1stop (google for them and you'll find them).
I'd also be interested in knowing what NDK part or parts are being used in the WaveIO.
The NZ2520SD series is what you want to look at. It's "only" rated 50 ppm, but the phase noise is excellent. See below image (red line).
Granted, this is for the 22.5792 MHz part, but I expect the general performance goes for the entire series. If you compare it the the CCHD-957 22.5792 MHz part you'll see that it's at -97dBc/Hz at 10Hz, while the NDK is about 15dB better. The Crysteks are better as at high frequency deviation, but I don't think that's relevant in this implementation (correct me if I'm wrong here). Also note that the NDK graph extends a full decade lower than the Crystek graphs.
I can't say much about availability, but if you're interested in getting a few, try to contact chip1stop (google for them and you'll find them).
I'd also be interested in knowing what NDK part or parts are being used in the WaveIO.
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Yes, the new WaveIO got all my attention and after it's ready I'll move on with DB.
DB will be available only for old boards. The new one will act quite different and doesn't need some of the DB features (like full USB isolation and reclocking stage).
Most sure yes! I will be responsible for all the HW/SW changes and I want to be sure that will work as expected.
Hm.. you killed me with this question. It's in debates now... As you know I cannot guarantee what it will happen even if my tech measures will be quite strong on that, nevertheless I am afraid that the changes could affect the sound quality of SPDIF output on the DB... maybe not in the "perfect" way as we all want
You know that theory is different from practice...Given this I like to offer the chance to revert the changes, at least for SPDIF... I2S is another story and cannot be switched back so easily. As I said, I'm thinking on it right now.
Is not such a thing like "Absolutely perfect"
Anyway, as you read before, the Crysteks will be included. Hello Ron. The GB will have to wait until I'll have a finished product, yes? After that, we will speak about it.
NZ2520SD-22.579200M-NSA3449C and NZ2520SD-24.576000M-NSA3449C.
Even if there are better alternatives, I have to be pleased with these parts as the rest of them have ~35 days delivery time, way to much for my actual needs.
Your board no longer has the 330 FW version, you should be aware of that nowHi,
My board has also 330, but ask Lucian for an update.
Lucian, thanks for your support!
Regards Carsten
It was sent today and I'll PM you with tracing number of your parcel.Kind regards,
Lucian
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Updating fw Waveio
Your board no longer has the 330 FW version, you should be aware of that now It was sent today and I'll PM you with tracing number of your parcel.
Kind regards,
Lucian[/QUOTE]
Hi Lucian,
What time do you expect me to be without my card, in case I send it back to you for update to FW331?
I can't live without the card for too long!!! Silly me!
Ed
Your board no longer has the 330 FW version, you should be aware of that now
It was sent today and I'll PM you with tracing number of your parcel.Kind regards,
Lucian[/QUOTE]
Hi Lucian,
What time do you expect me to be without my card, in case I send it back to you for update to FW331?
I can't live without the card for too long!!! Silly me!
Ed
Thank you very much for answers Lorien. I know theres no "perfection" for everyone
New times are coming when its about computer audio but Im little worried theres only I2S possibility on new board as still many other components are being connected by SPDiF.
But I understand your worries also - just solder new card and test it. Old one is already very good
New times are coming when its about computer audio but Im little worried theres only I2S possibility on new board as still many other components are being connected by SPDiF.
But I understand your worries also - just solder new card and test it. Old one is already very good
Hi Ed,
Facts: Send it to Lucian 30.05.13 morning, yesterday is it arrived, flashed and today morning on the way to me. The Hague is not so far away from Berlin.
That is support!
If it back to me i can say it to you. ;-)
Facts: Send it to Lucian 30.05.13 morning, yesterday is it arrived, flashed and today morning on the way to me. The Hague is not so far away from Berlin.
That is support!
Hi Ed,
If it back to me i can say it to you. ;-)
Facts: Send it to Lucian 30.05.13 morning, yesterday is it arrived, flashed and today morning on the way to me. The Hague is not so far away from Berlin.
That is support!
Hi Carsten,
Thanks for jumping in. This is really fast! I could live with that....
Hi Lorien
The new Wave IO Note looks very interesting. It addresses the comment I had in this post http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...hronous-usb-i2s-interface-81.html#post3035606
One thing I would like to see added to the design is an input on the I2S interface. Is that something you would consider?
I have a MiniDSP USBStreamer, which can do this, but it needs additional circuits to isolate the I2S and to get a clean clock signal. I am working on such an interface at the moment. But if the Wave IO Note had an input as well this would definitely be a cleaner solution.
Personally I would prefer if an IDC connector was used for the I2S bus, making it easy to connect it with a flat cable, but that is a minor detail.
The new Wave IO Note looks very interesting. It addresses the comment I had in this post http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...hronous-usb-i2s-interface-81.html#post3035606
One thing I would like to see added to the design is an input on the I2S interface. Is that something you would consider?
I have a MiniDSP USBStreamer, which can do this, but it needs additional circuits to isolate the I2S and to get a clean clock signal. I am working on such an interface at the moment. But if the Wave IO Note had an input as well this would definitely be a cleaner solution.
Personally I would prefer if an IDC connector was used for the I2S bus, making it easy to connect it with a flat cable, but that is a minor detail.