BrianEno said:
The irony of disparaging inefficient amplifiers while using
inefficient speakers is making me giggle.
It is a fact that there are lots of speaker systems that are
FAR more efficient than Acoustats. I assume you have a
reason for squandering so much power in such inefficient
devices. Maybe, just maybe, this reason is similar to why
others choose to build and listen to Class A amps...
Just a thought.
Robert
The motivation for all this holy war obsession about the ecological Class A malice still illudes me.
This whining has been going on for a quarter of a century, there's a vegamite guru scheduled to jump out of the woods every six months for a Class A swearing session.
Looks like it is legit to have a monster 500 watter Class AB, but anyone with the urge to shack with a 60 watt SE Class A cuty is a tresspasser.
The impression Mr Pass has given me over a lengthy period is that he would be bored out of his skull if he was stuck to the same old trick for the Harry Harlow peanut.
Criticising him for having the talent and skills to merchandise the offspring of his mental flaws, instead of acknowledging there's a structural demand from the audio git market for these amplifiers, denies the laws of economy.
The first Pass labs product was not the biggest waster steroid on the cat walk, Rowland Research's M7 and the largest Perreaux power amp model outclassed the Nulls in weight and excess heat.
The Aleph-0 was considered an oddball at first, with the proper loudspeaker the only competitors in 92/93 were bulky true environmental unfriendly triode tube amps.
After plus 25 years, it's finally dawning there's no easy way out to reach for heaven with a mosfet amplifier.
There's blindness for you, all it takes it to listen, but listening is not allowed by AB tweakers.
Not a week goes by without me hearing an automobile with a engine/tranny itch pass by.
Nowadays it's a jolly flash knowing that the car will be hauled to a mechanics shop within a week or two, 25 years ago it annoyed me every single time that people can be so deaf and dumb.
(thanks for the Glazier versus Levinson clarification, i wondered how Mr Levinson changed his image to the man-in-black that fast)
PS: i don't have a helicopter, yet.
This whining has been going on for a quarter of a century, there's a vegamite guru scheduled to jump out of the woods every six months for a Class A swearing session.
Looks like it is legit to have a monster 500 watter Class AB, but anyone with the urge to shack with a 60 watt SE Class A cuty is a tresspasser.
The impression Mr Pass has given me over a lengthy period is that he would be bored out of his skull if he was stuck to the same old trick for the Harry Harlow peanut.
Criticising him for having the talent and skills to merchandise the offspring of his mental flaws, instead of acknowledging there's a structural demand from the audio git market for these amplifiers, denies the laws of economy.
The first Pass labs product was not the biggest waster steroid on the cat walk, Rowland Research's M7 and the largest Perreaux power amp model outclassed the Nulls in weight and excess heat.
The Aleph-0 was considered an oddball at first, with the proper loudspeaker the only competitors in 92/93 were bulky true environmental unfriendly triode tube amps.
After plus 25 years, it's finally dawning there's no easy way out to reach for heaven with a mosfet amplifier.
There's blindness for you, all it takes it to listen, but listening is not allowed by AB tweakers.
Not a week goes by without me hearing an automobile with a engine/tranny itch pass by.
Nowadays it's a jolly flash knowing that the car will be hauled to a mechanics shop within a week or two, 25 years ago it annoyed me every single time that people can be so deaf and dumb.
(thanks for the Glazier versus Levinson clarification, i wondered how Mr Levinson changed his image to the man-in-black that fast)
PS: i don't have a helicopter, yet.
Just had a good continental nightrest.
You know what 's gonna happen with dinosaurs, don't you?
Can't compete with your black & white world.
Had several Class A amps from Krell and Threshold (the S/1000 was converted from a bridged topology to a massive parallel configuration, by the German distributor WBS for Threshold in that era, like in the SA/1. After consulting with Nelson Pass about the presetting of the heatsinktemperature I played around with the biastrimmer and lowered the quiescent current quite a bit. Did not really notice any declining in musicallity.
Had several incarnations of the model 7 from Rowland and the Model 8T. Would love an amplifier with the punch of the big Krells or Levinson ML-3 combined with the delicacy of the Threshold SA/1 or model 8T.
I'm always open for a new learning curve. What I learned from you is that Class A is the best and I can have a opinion after I built a Class A amp myself and then weigh the pro's and cons.
Maybe you should ralley some support for a ban. That's how you should deal with dissedents.
BrianEno said:
There are nice answers and theme variations in " the ice age 2 - the meltdown " LOL
BrianEno said:
Many people that didnt know Class A and SE talk about musicality . The same thing for the CD era . Many people that didnt know LP s at all talks about musicality . Nothing "personal " , but I cant Image why .
Also many reviews , doesnt talk at all about stereophony , how is the sound of a bass drum - how do you enjoy that note throug that amplifier and so on. What is doing music to them . Oh yeah , they dont talk about the importance of being biased ....
What are the " effects " on your personal experience ... lowering the bias .
I did acknowledge that. There's also a market for 425 cubic inches, 427 BHP big block Chevy V8 engines but the marketdemand alone is not reason that you cannot question it's fuelconsumption related to it's performance in a particular chassis.
Love the sound of those engines though
Bought this speaker new back in 1989 and I'm really font of it.
To compensate for it's inefficiency I do not permit myself to operate a full Class A biased amp.
Even with a SPL of approx. 80dB/1 watt@1 meter I seldom need more then a few Watts of power for acceptable soundlevels.
I receive a lot of reactions that compare the current designs of Pass with other activities that consume the same or even more plasma screen or turning up the heater or airco to feel comfy, Pass himself) getting a vacation with a plane and so forth but there in themselves no reason or argument to not wonder why a designer should choose to apply a technique that wastes at least 75 % of it's currentintake in heat while at his maximum outputcapability and beneath that point the efficiency only diminishes.
The answer from Pass in a nutshell was clear:
There's a market for those amps, it's a small one (nothing to be alarmed about) and the benefits of lineair operation under all conditions outweighs the penalties you have to pay for it.
Member Grey (Grollie I believe) even stated it very forcefully:
Class A is simply the best and there are customers that want the best.
My opinion/experience is that a specific Class of operation is just
one (important) parameter in a total concept but one that can have serious consequences for the final design of a poweramplifier. That's why people invent sliding bias amps like the 800A, Stasis topology, plateau biasing AB1, AB2 ...
Your continuing ignorance of Grey's explanation (and others) is the reason why I didn't even bother to reply to you since I knew from the beginning it would be useless. You showed right from the beginning that you're not interested in a technical discussion; you just want to repeat product advertisments.
Well do so.
However I really care about above statement.
I highly respect Grey and I'm fully confident that he has in no way such inferior inclinations as to ban you.
Besides, don't start thinking anybody raises a finger to remove you from the board - you are not worth the effort, really. Further, the guys here are very liberal.
In a couple of weeks you're gone anyway or you finally learned something and pose your questions differently.
Cheers, Hannes
PS: how's it possible you admit lack of technical knowledge and at the same time refuse to understand replies from people who have it?
my domestic heater is a lot better than that.
I use a ClassA amplifier and ALL the energy input ultimately comes out as heat.
In my book that is 100% efficient (and no added water vapour to cloud the calculations).
Just great for three seasons in the Scottish year.
So the BIG question becomes:-
would Brian rather watch a three bar electric fire (radiator) or use a ClassA amplifier and get some real enjoyment?
You all know my preference.
You seem to know the "guys" here very well within 202 posts in six months.
Be carefull with the word 'liberal' in your statements, some people in the US at this forum could find that offensive.
You did not bother to read my remarks on the comments of Grey that's obvious. I do acknowledge the merits of full Class A biasing but I really wonder if it's worth to go the whole way.
Nelson Pass himself said that my questions were indeed valid and legitimate(now you can speculate that he was just polite to me, or did I was not really wort the effort just like you) nad he did answer them. Few people like you took my question as offensive or even provocative against a skilled designer. I did not start this personal quarrel and although I feel I have the right to defend myself against such accusations I will stop to react against these kind of personal attacks.
Cheers to you also mate!
What an amazing argument.
I've not written any books on electronics, but I've read some. So I'm not qualified to post here ;-)) ?
Forgive me my use of 'liberal', I'm not a native english speaker, but I hope you got what I wanted to say.
Interestingly you never comment on the real criticism, like mine:
Well, at least I know the people here that contributed knowledge and/or schematics and it would be better if you would do as well.
You can always try the search button ;-))
If there was any offence in my previous post, I apologize.
Cheers, Hannes
PS: I'm going to stop posting to this thread, since I think everything was said. Maybe this is the reason I don't have 1000+ postings? But maybe you would call that spamming then? All what is possible to come now is further personal attacks or repeating statements.
PPS: if you want to give smallish Class-A a try, you're welcome to participate in the F3 group buy , I would say an excellent opportunity to find out what this is all about!
Your right there!
I just repaired the biascircuit of one of my Levinson ML-3's, hope it's stays stable and are now in the progress of repairing the rushincurrent limiting circuit of my other ML-3. I have a JRDG model 8T too to care for, so though tempting your F3 project I'll pass that offer.
Succes with the F3 project and let's agree on the fact that Nelson Pass is a hell of a guy sharing his knowledge for DIY projects and that he's always prepared to answer any questions about his current line of electronics or his former ones.
No hard feelings anymore?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.