*L* It's Definitely a holiday week...this forum suddenly 'lights up'.
Erik, I used to own 901s2's, and I won't vote to have you deleted. *G* And yeah, placement is still an issue. Whereas the Bose liked to be near a wall, my Walsh clones are 5' +/- away. Seems to work fine to my ears, but that's me. As for 'HWMNBN', toilet hardware, and all that... I've used some off-the-shelf PVC WC parts, so I'm guilty too. *L* And as for Mr.Linkwitz, he was kind enough to respond briefly and pleasantly to an email I'd sent him. So I will refrain from kicking the shins of one of audio's resident gods, except perhaps in obvious jest. I may meet him someday and I'd rather it'd remain cordial. I subscribe to letting everyone having their own predilections.
WaVe, upward firing drivers, even ones pointed at diffraction devices don't seem to fit the bill of being an true 'omni'. IMHO, all that's being done is 'very early reflection' of the pressure wave which still isn't a direct path from driver to ear. As for a 'balloon' driver, google MBL and look at their 101's. That's about as close to that concept as current tech allows, again IMHO. I've been in contact with a forum participant that's working on a DIY of a 101 that's making great progress with good results. And it's been very time consuming and difficult, and he's been highly committed to the task. It can be done, but requires the zeal of someone from ISIS with a backpack bomb....
I'm almost kidding about that....but not so much...
Bare, I like dipoles. Own a pair of ESS Heil drivers. Properly placed and set up, like any decent dipole, they'll do what they do Beautifully. One just has to accommodate the characteristics of the beast. That being done, Practical Magic. If ya don't, *bleah*. One can't be too lazy. *G* And I can be that, too....
Flaesh, yeah, but....ya gotta like piezos. I just can't, sorry. They make teeth itch, or something like that. Never have....although a ball of them would be entertaining to look at...a loud BB8 that escaped from Star Wars. *LOL*
Erik, I take a comment that L. makes on his site to 'ignore the room'. I have four Walsh clones in a 'quasi-surround' array, much like his front speakers and the Plutos behind. Feeding them a 2 channel signal, L/R, F/R, no Dolby or simulated surround in the mix. Interesting things happen, acoustically. Likely due to reflection, refraction, interference patterns, all that...effected by the 'mix-down' of the selection played as well, I've noted....
"Things move." A piano may now seem to be 'behind, and to the left. The back-up horns are behind, and to the right. The drum kit, the vocalist, the guitars are still 'up front', but other participants are 'elsewhere'. And I'm sober and/or not 'high'.
And I hardly listen to my 'regular' speakers anymore. (But I'm keeping the Heils, so forget them *L*).
Erik, I used to own 901s2's, and I won't vote to have you deleted. *G* And yeah, placement is still an issue. Whereas the Bose liked to be near a wall, my Walsh clones are 5' +/- away. Seems to work fine to my ears, but that's me. As for 'HWMNBN', toilet hardware, and all that... I've used some off-the-shelf PVC WC parts, so I'm guilty too. *L* And as for Mr.Linkwitz, he was kind enough to respond briefly and pleasantly to an email I'd sent him. So I will refrain from kicking the shins of one of audio's resident gods, except perhaps in obvious jest. I may meet him someday and I'd rather it'd remain cordial. I subscribe to letting everyone having their own predilections.
WaVe, upward firing drivers, even ones pointed at diffraction devices don't seem to fit the bill of being an true 'omni'. IMHO, all that's being done is 'very early reflection' of the pressure wave which still isn't a direct path from driver to ear. As for a 'balloon' driver, google MBL and look at their 101's. That's about as close to that concept as current tech allows, again IMHO. I've been in contact with a forum participant that's working on a DIY of a 101 that's making great progress with good results. And it's been very time consuming and difficult, and he's been highly committed to the task. It can be done, but requires the zeal of someone from ISIS with a backpack bomb....
I'm almost kidding about that....but not so much...
Bare, I like dipoles. Own a pair of ESS Heil drivers. Properly placed and set up, like any decent dipole, they'll do what they do Beautifully. One just has to accommodate the characteristics of the beast. That being done, Practical Magic. If ya don't, *bleah*. One can't be too lazy. *G* And I can be that, too....
Flaesh, yeah, but....ya gotta like piezos. I just can't, sorry. They make teeth itch, or something like that. Never have....although a ball of them would be entertaining to look at...a loud BB8 that escaped from Star Wars. *LOL*
Erik, I take a comment that L. makes on his site to 'ignore the room'. I have four Walsh clones in a 'quasi-surround' array, much like his front speakers and the Plutos behind. Feeding them a 2 channel signal, L/R, F/R, no Dolby or simulated surround in the mix. Interesting things happen, acoustically. Likely due to reflection, refraction, interference patterns, all that...effected by the 'mix-down' of the selection played as well, I've noted....
"Things move." A piano may now seem to be 'behind, and to the left. The back-up horns are behind, and to the right. The drum kit, the vocalist, the guitars are still 'up front', but other participants are 'elsewhere'. And I'm sober and/or not 'high'.
And I hardly listen to my 'regular' speakers anymore. (But I'm keeping the Heils, so forget them *L*).
Well, we're now off topic, but I worked for one of Dolby's competitors, ages ago. We had a simulated surround product that was probably doing in electronics some of what you were doing acoustically. It would generate a LS and RS signal by taking the C channel (or was it L and R? Forgot) and adding some slightly time delayed signal back to itself, creating comb filtering. The LS and RS would have slightly different time delays applied so that the combing was different for each side.
Erik, 'off topic' is one of my specialties...*G* I suspect that's what's occurring about me, but it's uncanny to hear it. And as for what you used to work on, I'd bet that's what current 'soundbar' tech is employing.
I'm not a big fan of soundbars. "Let's attach some small speakers in a plastic box to make up for the small speakers that exist in the tv. And add some circuits to emulate a '3D' sound field from a plastic box that's +/- 3'w." *Feh*G*
Wave, yeah...most of the 'simulated' stuff ain't got legs. Blurry imaging at best, and that's being kind. But I'm sure you've noticed, Sh*t Sells. I-things with ear buds aren't terrific sonically ultimately, but they're convenient...and you can stick it into a base unit/clock/recharger/blue toothed 'everything' and you're good to go.
I'm guilty in one aspect. I use my phone with Spotify to drive my shop stereo. But I plug in into a parametric eq's 'tape in' jacks and jerk it around a tad. *L* More than one way to cat that skin.
I'm not a big fan of soundbars. "Let's attach some small speakers in a plastic box to make up for the small speakers that exist in the tv. And add some circuits to emulate a '3D' sound field from a plastic box that's +/- 3'w." *Feh*G*
Wave, yeah...most of the 'simulated' stuff ain't got legs. Blurry imaging at best, and that's being kind. But I'm sure you've noticed, Sh*t Sells. I-things with ear buds aren't terrific sonically ultimately, but they're convenient...and you can stick it into a base unit/clock/recharger/blue toothed 'everything' and you're good to go.
I'm guilty in one aspect. I use my phone with Spotify to drive my shop stereo. But I plug in into a parametric eq's 'tape in' jacks and jerk it around a tad. *L* More than one way to cat that skin.
interesting reading. I see a lot of people still decide speakers with their eyes instead of their ears. Do not forget sound travels around the speaker box up to 270 degrees so buy having a downward or upward firing speaker you get 360 degrees.
Then you have room reflections and engineering voodoo.
If you like the way it sounds, then that is all that matters.
Then you have room reflections and engineering voodoo.
If you like the way it sounds, then that is all that matters.
Jsixis, I'll agree that lower frequencies do exactly that, which is why subs 'do what they do', and well. But the higher you go (depending on, Yes, 'engineering voodoo', but mostly physics), the more things 'straighten out'. Ergo, the 'sweet spot', 'beaming', all that...
Then room reflections begin...and whatever response one has to That, which gets pretty involved depending on one's tastes and budget....
And, agreed...."If you like the way it sounds, then that is all that matters." That's the bottom line in the nutshell. I-Pod through stratospheric 'high end'...*G*
Anyhow....Merry Christmas. *S*
Then room reflections begin...and whatever response one has to That, which gets pretty involved depending on one's tastes and budget....
And, agreed...."If you like the way it sounds, then that is all that matters." That's the bottom line in the nutshell. I-Pod through stratospheric 'high end'...*G*
Anyhow....Merry Christmas. *S*
Depends, but research has gotten much more advanced than simple comb filtering. Head Related Transfer Functions do deliberately what we'd hear by accident using these comb filtering techniques. This is why Dolby Atmos drives me a little nuts. Yet again Dolby uses bronze age technology in the age of carbon fiber and iPhones. Just an excuse to sell the next generation of gear and more cheap speakers and amplifiers.
Done well, HRTF implementations can not only make you believe a plane flew over your head, but that you just accidentally farted. It's really that good. Personally, I really want to find a VERY good HRTF surround processor so I can stop buying 5 channels of amplifiers and speakers. I want to buy 2 really good tube amps and have no surround envy at all.
You are right, most are garbage. The one soundbar that I have heard worth a damn, the Sonos Playbar, also has terrible HDMI support. Sound quality alone I think it's a steal, but having limited connectivity and no support for HDMI Audio Return Channel (ARC) makes it a seriously bone headed product.
Best,
Erik
"Surround envy"....*L* I like that....let's spread that around, see if it can become a 'meme'...
And, you're right, HRTF is a big step ahead of the 'simulated surrounds' we've been subjected to. And as processor tech continues to improve, we'll see it become even more believable. If you run into a 'stand alone' processor that's worth a (expletive deleted), let me know. I'd love driving these Walsh's with that, as what I'm playing about with is trying to get an 'environment' that puts the performers in front of you as discretely as possible...to the point of being able to say 'the drum kit is THERE', not 'kinda over there'...
Just of an extension of what we've been chasing all along, anyway, IMHO. *G*
I've heard about the Sonos...and doesn't that always seem to be the case? Always a 'fatal flaw' in a well-thought out device otherwise. If I remember, it's set up for the 'I-thingy' crowd, convenience over ultimate connectivity. Maybe they'll grow a brain...one can hope. *L*
Soundbars in general, the only manufacturer that's has 'massed small drivers' down pat is Bose, what with their waveguide designs behind them, even in plastic enclosures. Even then, one can only expect so much from small drivers (again, IMHO). Their 901's were (and still are) the epitome of what one can do with them. Not 'perfect', not 'audiophile' by today's standards, but a 'muddy high-water mark' for the time.
I chuckle at the line source arrays that are about....they remind me of a 901 'unraveled', doubled, tripled, quadrupled, on and on.... Power hungry, no doubt, finesse with the best examples, but...
'Audiophilia' has become a Tower of Babel. We're all striving for Heaven, but beginning to not speak the same 'language' any more. Worse than cars...you can have a Smart Car, or you can have a Bugatti. How do you want to get there....? *L*
"Off topic" as usual...the moderators are going to be at the door with pitchforks and torches, I just Know it....
And, you're right, HRTF is a big step ahead of the 'simulated surrounds' we've been subjected to. And as processor tech continues to improve, we'll see it become even more believable. If you run into a 'stand alone' processor that's worth a (expletive deleted), let me know. I'd love driving these Walsh's with that, as what I'm playing about with is trying to get an 'environment' that puts the performers in front of you as discretely as possible...to the point of being able to say 'the drum kit is THERE', not 'kinda over there'...
Just of an extension of what we've been chasing all along, anyway, IMHO. *G*
I've heard about the Sonos...and doesn't that always seem to be the case? Always a 'fatal flaw' in a well-thought out device otherwise. If I remember, it's set up for the 'I-thingy' crowd, convenience over ultimate connectivity. Maybe they'll grow a brain...one can hope. *L*
Soundbars in general, the only manufacturer that's has 'massed small drivers' down pat is Bose, what with their waveguide designs behind them, even in plastic enclosures. Even then, one can only expect so much from small drivers (again, IMHO). Their 901's were (and still are) the epitome of what one can do with them. Not 'perfect', not 'audiophile' by today's standards, but a 'muddy high-water mark' for the time.
I chuckle at the line source arrays that are about....they remind me of a 901 'unraveled', doubled, tripled, quadrupled, on and on.... Power hungry, no doubt, finesse with the best examples, but...
'Audiophilia' has become a Tower of Babel. We're all striving for Heaven, but beginning to not speak the same 'language' any more. Worse than cars...you can have a Smart Car, or you can have a Bugatti. How do you want to get there....? *L*
"Off topic" as usual...the moderators are going to be at the door with pitchforks and torches, I just Know it....
Erik, went googling about following some linkage on HRTF...*phew* No wonder, it's a zoo out there when it comes to 'approach', softwares, even theories and the application of such. Diving into the deep end, and someone forgot to fill the pool enough. *L*
I ran into this at Wikipedia's 'Ambisonic Data Exchange Formats', which seems to be the common ground for HRTF studies:
"This page attempts to document the different existing formats, their rationales and history, for the terminally curious and those unfortunate enough to have to deal with them in detail."
Does that speak volumes, or has the sand in my head finally solidified? *L*
It might be awhile before someone has the cojones to put a emulator into the public consumption sphere. With the plethora of varied computers running who knows what software in some sort of 'unified' condition driving (your favorite cosmic entity here) knows what audio equipment collection, the odds of 'repeatable results and experiences' starts looking real rare....IMHO. "Could be wrong, I could be right."
Fortunately, I'm patient...and I'll just keep playing about with what I'm up to, and wait for that day to dawn...
I ran into this at Wikipedia's 'Ambisonic Data Exchange Formats', which seems to be the common ground for HRTF studies:
"This page attempts to document the different existing formats, their rationales and history, for the terminally curious and those unfortunate enough to have to deal with them in detail."
Does that speak volumes, or has the sand in my head finally solidified? *L*
It might be awhile before someone has the cojones to put a emulator into the public consumption sphere. With the plethora of varied computers running who knows what software in some sort of 'unified' condition driving (your favorite cosmic entity here) knows what audio equipment collection, the odds of 'repeatable results and experiences' starts looking real rare....IMHO. "Could be wrong, I could be right."
Fortunately, I'm patient...and I'll just keep playing about with what I'm up to, and wait for that day to dawn...
Have purchased and have begun carving up speakers for the next iteration (V.4) of DIY Walsh. The materials for a variation of cone construction are also in hand, so that'll take up some not so spare time for awhile.
I guess I should start taking pictures again...document this descent into madness....*G*
I guess I should start taking pictures again...document this descent into madness....*G*
Yeah...*sigh*...a bummer that they'll have to stay on the shelf for awhile as 'real life concerns' puts further progress on hold yet again. But anything worthwhile is worth waiting for, right?
Right...and the cones for the main drivers make these child's play to accomplish ultimately. I suspect I'm going to have a certain 'fail rate' in making 4 acceptable cones, but I'm going to approach that routine with that in mind when the time becomes available. That, and setting up for that procedure and process has 'forks'...there's potentially more than one way to make them.
So, that variable suggests to me to create some patterns to generate the 'raw parts' to make multiples easier to have on hand when it's time to do the deed. 'Limited production' on a small scale, if you will, if only to not interrupt that process when it happens. It'll be easier to 'shift gears' if I don't have to stop to make more parts.
Meanwhile I'll also be collecting other items needed for the final assembly of the entire individual units....the hardware, the columns, their bases, m & fm plugs, fresh adhesives....
Got a form of 'atta boy' at PE's forum from a former employee at Ohm (the current, not the original co.). That sort of recognition of what I'm about and what's involved made my day and helps keep the desire stroked and stoked....
Oh, yeah...*L* I'm 'at' a couple of other forums with regard to the subject. One never knows where a suggestion from a friendly poster might trigger something useful or thought provoking. *G* Like an omni, I try to be everywhere, filling in the blanks in this venture.
Have also begun inquiring locally, trying to coax some 'educated ears' to give me some feedback on what I've in hand and playing now, so's to have some opinions other than my own bias. At this point, I can count the number of people that have actually heard them (other than the YT post) on both hands without running out of fingers. There's no 'audiophile community' locally that I'm aware of, and no clubs in NC that have responded to my emails if only to see if they're still active. I'd like to audition them to those with an open mind, those not expecting multi-K$ monoblocks, high-end cables, or turntables that cost more than my car.
There is a company that makes highly regarded guitar amps and, of course, Moog. Audiogon itself is not far away in SC, but they're a commercial concern that I suspect wouldn't find my 'steampunk' speakers of interest. There's one dealer in town that reps a couple of speakers, but they're concerned more with custom installations...and then there's Best Buy...
I'll see what happens with that line of pursuit....
Right...and the cones for the main drivers make these child's play to accomplish ultimately. I suspect I'm going to have a certain 'fail rate' in making 4 acceptable cones, but I'm going to approach that routine with that in mind when the time becomes available. That, and setting up for that procedure and process has 'forks'...there's potentially more than one way to make them.
So, that variable suggests to me to create some patterns to generate the 'raw parts' to make multiples easier to have on hand when it's time to do the deed. 'Limited production' on a small scale, if you will, if only to not interrupt that process when it happens. It'll be easier to 'shift gears' if I don't have to stop to make more parts.
Meanwhile I'll also be collecting other items needed for the final assembly of the entire individual units....the hardware, the columns, their bases, m & fm plugs, fresh adhesives....
Got a form of 'atta boy' at PE's forum from a former employee at Ohm (the current, not the original co.). That sort of recognition of what I'm about and what's involved made my day and helps keep the desire stroked and stoked....
Oh, yeah...*L* I'm 'at' a couple of other forums with regard to the subject. One never knows where a suggestion from a friendly poster might trigger something useful or thought provoking. *G* Like an omni, I try to be everywhere, filling in the blanks in this venture.
Have also begun inquiring locally, trying to coax some 'educated ears' to give me some feedback on what I've in hand and playing now, so's to have some opinions other than my own bias. At this point, I can count the number of people that have actually heard them (other than the YT post) on both hands without running out of fingers. There's no 'audiophile community' locally that I'm aware of, and no clubs in NC that have responded to my emails if only to see if they're still active. I'd like to audition them to those with an open mind, those not expecting multi-K$ monoblocks, high-end cables, or turntables that cost more than my car.
There is a company that makes highly regarded guitar amps and, of course, Moog. Audiogon itself is not far away in SC, but they're a commercial concern that I suspect wouldn't find my 'steampunk' speakers of interest. There's one dealer in town that reps a couple of speakers, but they're concerned more with custom installations...and then there's Best Buy...
I'll see what happens with that line of pursuit....
Filling in a blank, other than the one twixt my ears...
Have two 'takers' in the quest 'n query for educated ears, the aforementioned guitar amp co. owner and a Real Live design/manufacturer of omnis which just happens to be not light years away. The realization of this has to wait for yet awhile since self and co. are out of town installing in Tampa. Now, installing in Tampa in the summer does call into question relative sanity, but one goes where the dollars are to maintain buoyancy. But Oct. (yes, for that long...) isn't all that far away....as I remind self as I soak self in sweat, sand, sawdust, and concrete dust...
Have two 'takers' in the quest 'n query for educated ears, the aforementioned guitar amp co. owner and a Real Live design/manufacturer of omnis which just happens to be not light years away. The realization of this has to wait for yet awhile since self and co. are out of town installing in Tampa. Now, installing in Tampa in the summer does call into question relative sanity, but one goes where the dollars are to maintain buoyancy. But Oct. (yes, for that long...) isn't all that far away....as I remind self as I soak self in sweat, sand, sawdust, and concrete dust...
*L* Yeah, ewo....I try to poke by bi-monthly, if only some other mortal either shares my affliction or finds infection sites captivating. Not that I can offer any cures, mind you.
...and the first time I heard 'shrimps on the barbie' I flashed on midgets with small dolls which registered somewhat off the rails. *L* But that's just how my wetware works....
"Down under" strikes me as silly. If one was to approach the planet anew, north and south wouldn't matter and would strike one as a local bias of no particular use. But that's the hemispherical preference problem....we think we're 'upside' here.
Silly humans....that's yet another reason for 'the aliens' to stay away. *L*
I'll go back into stasis now....
Not that I can offer any cures, mind you....and the first time I heard 'shrimps on the barbie' I flashed on midgets with small dolls which registered somewhat off the rails. *L* But that's just how my wetware works....
"Down under" strikes me as silly. If one was to approach the planet anew, north and south wouldn't matter and would strike one as a local bias of no particular use. But that's the hemispherical preference problem....we think we're 'upside' here.
Silly humans....that's yet another reason for 'the aliens' to stay away. *L*
I'll go back into stasis now....
Back in or capable of circulation after 3 months in Tampa on install of our 'normal' activities. Other things to attend to, but hope and plan to make progress on the next version. Things to collect, objects to make and have made, then assemblies to do....
Would like a clone, but know he'd want to do the 'fun stuff' instead of me, so no respite there...*G* And one 'me' is enough, so I've been told...
Would like a clone, but know he'd want to do the 'fun stuff' instead of me, so no respite there...*G* And one 'me' is enough, so I've been told...