Not many orchestra conductors on here so that's a very welcome perspective.
Have you heard the Beolab 5? That - or one of its smaller siblings - may give you what you're after
BeoLab 5 Premium Loudspeakers - Bang & Olufsen - Bang & Olufsen
The BeoLab is *not* omni.
In the horizontal plane it's radiation is about 180 degrees. In the vertical plane it's narrow, about 10 degrees iirc.
Speaking of knocking things together:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HjqHXpZtU&feature=youtu.be
These are V.3's....V.4's are in planning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HjqHXpZtU&feature=youtu.be
These are V.3's....V.4's are in planning.
When the group listened to some quasi-Omni Ohm Walsh speakers that a DIY participant had brought to a DIY event there was wide agreement that they had superior imaging to all the other "traditional" (and some not so traditional) designs we heard.
With most modern Ohm speakers the woofer/midrange is omni but the tweeters are not. However, I know they try to use tweeters with the widest dispersion pattern they can find, recently they've been using some nice little 3/4" dome chambered tweeters with neodymium magnet motors so the distance between the midrange and tweeter can be minimized vertically.
I think most DIYAudio.com members would agree, by far the most important part of the chain is the speakers (assuming you are stuck with your room, because the room may be as important, but less possible to change rooms, than speakers, generally?) - but - the recording also has a large role in how much you can get that "you are there" magic when listening to a stereo system.
I listened to some "holographic" recordings done by THE Microphone company used to demo their products, which they brought with them to meet with folks at Ohm while I was still there and all parties were blown away by the combination of their recordings and Ohm's speakers. I clearly heard footsteps coming from BEHIND me and it sounded like I was in a different place, with just two speakers in front of us.
I tried to listen to some of those at the B&O store but the experience was not very pleasant. Salesman seemed kind of rude, wasn't interested in having me listen to CDs that I brought. So, my experience is biased, but what I heard didn't even sound particularly good.
Remind me some of German Physik speakers.
Speaking of dodecahedron, here's a little project I did:
With most modern Ohm speakers the woofer/midrange is omni but the tweeters are not. However, I know they try to use tweeters with the widest dispersion pattern they can find, recently they've been using some nice little 3/4" dome chambered tweeters with neodymium magnet motors so the distance between the midrange and tweeter can be minimized vertically.
I think most DIYAudio.com members would agree, by far the most important part of the chain is the speakers (assuming you are stuck with your room, because the room may be as important, but less possible to change rooms, than speakers, generally?) - but - the recording also has a large role in how much you can get that "you are there" magic when listening to a stereo system.
I listened to some "holographic" recordings done by THE Microphone company used to demo their products, which they brought with them to meet with folks at Ohm while I was still there and all parties were blown away by the combination of their recordings and Ohm's speakers. I clearly heard footsteps coming from BEHIND me and it sounded like I was in a different place, with just two speakers in front of us.
I tried to listen to some of those at the B&O store but the experience was not very pleasant. Salesman seemed kind of rude, wasn't interested in having me listen to CDs that I brought. So, my experience is biased, but what I heard didn't even sound particularly good.
Remind me some of German Physik speakers.
Speaking of dodecahedron, here's a little project I did:
Attachments
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Could be wrong...I could be right...
Critofur...Y'know, B&O has been producing some of the most beautiful components for an awfully long time. Really artful stuff, living room jewelry...
That doesn't mean they can't produce 'clunkers', though. We've seen and heard the analogies. Beauty contest participants that are 10 visually, until they open their mouth and totally destroy themselves intellectually. Now, trying to be fair and not opening myself up to being flamed into ash, IMHO all the manufacturers seem to have done this at one time or another. And since audio reproduction IS a Very Subjective Experience in my experience, Nobody escapes unscathed at some time with some product. And omnis seem to be really fraught with this.
Now, Ohm's do work. I've heard them. I even suggested to a friend years ago that he might like them. He did...last I heard, he still owns them and cherishes them. But, when one 'looks under the hood' (take the 'birdcage' off, under the grille), you find what looks like a conventional woofer 'flipped' with a dome tweeter parked above it.
Contrasted with the original F's or A's....again, IMHO...close, but no cigar.
HHR is making a Walsh that's as close to the original intent as possible. The German Physiks (my 'model', if you will) is a variant. Ikonoklast 3's are another, but I don't agree with his 'flipped' top cone in the pair. (I've tried that...it doesn't work right spatially...).
As for the room, you can see from my YT video, mine's ghastly. Concrete floor, chipboard walls, 14' ceiling in a steel framed commercial building. No real attempt at reflection control, damping, nothing, nada.
Linkwitz says at his website to 'ignore the room'. I have to. And, guess what? With my 'little mutants', It Works.
And you're absolutely right, the recording Does Matter.
What you don't see in the video is the second pair behind the camera. With a Walsh the size of mine, the only way you'll get louder reproduction is to have more than a stereo pair. You can stack them vertically, like GP does in their 'upper end' offerings. I opted to have two pairs, front and rear, in a 'quasi-surround' array, just for grins and to see what happens. A Polk sub is in between the front pair, because with the smaller cones they just can't go low enough; ergo, 'filler' for the 'bottom' below 'bout 150hz. And they get fed a two channel signal; L f&r, R f&r. Nothing discrete, no 'simulated surround', nothing 'magical'...
...and with certain recordings, 'things' seem to be coming from 'behind' you...
That piano is left, rear. Additional percussion is right, rear. Vocals, guitars, and the drum kit stay 'in front', but 'other stuff' has 'moved'...
It's been suggested that interference patterns are causing this effect, and Yes, it's highly subjective and subject (I suspect) to the mix-down...
But, it's There. Absolutely enthralling, at least to this mortal. I hardly listen to the 'stack' of speakers behind them anymore. They're not perfect, far from it. Some resonances, inconsistencies at certain frequencies, they have their limitations, Sure. 31 channels of eq smoothes things out to 'make junk sing'.
But immersive? You betcha'.
I like your dodecahedron...*S* I'm a woodbutcher, and I haven't tried one of those. Contrasted to the MBL101's, it's as close to the 'pulsating sphere' as one can get, short of a plasma source. And we all know the side effects of those...I still like to be able to breathe while listening...*L*
Here's a closer look of the 'fronts', BTB. I'm playing with a '2-way' config; a variant of the Infinity 'ice cream cone' tweeter. Smaller voice coil allows for a smaller cone apex for high extension, giving it a little more 'air'. The back pair is running small dome tweets, similar to the Ohms. OK, but...not the same....ultimately directional, just like the Ohms...
Critofur...Y'know, B&O has been producing some of the most beautiful components for an awfully long time. Really artful stuff, living room jewelry...
That doesn't mean they can't produce 'clunkers', though. We've seen and heard the analogies. Beauty contest participants that are 10 visually, until they open their mouth and totally destroy themselves intellectually. Now, trying to be fair and not opening myself up to being flamed into ash, IMHO all the manufacturers seem to have done this at one time or another. And since audio reproduction IS a Very Subjective Experience in my experience, Nobody escapes unscathed at some time with some product. And omnis seem to be really fraught with this.
Now, Ohm's do work. I've heard them. I even suggested to a friend years ago that he might like them. He did...last I heard, he still owns them and cherishes them. But, when one 'looks under the hood' (take the 'birdcage' off, under the grille), you find what looks like a conventional woofer 'flipped' with a dome tweeter parked above it.
Contrasted with the original F's or A's....again, IMHO...close, but no cigar.
HHR is making a Walsh that's as close to the original intent as possible. The German Physiks (my 'model', if you will) is a variant. Ikonoklast 3's are another, but I don't agree with his 'flipped' top cone in the pair. (I've tried that...it doesn't work right spatially...).
As for the room, you can see from my YT video, mine's ghastly. Concrete floor, chipboard walls, 14' ceiling in a steel framed commercial building. No real attempt at reflection control, damping, nothing, nada.
Linkwitz says at his website to 'ignore the room'. I have to. And, guess what? With my 'little mutants', It Works.
And you're absolutely right, the recording Does Matter.
What you don't see in the video is the second pair behind the camera. With a Walsh the size of mine, the only way you'll get louder reproduction is to have more than a stereo pair. You can stack them vertically, like GP does in their 'upper end' offerings. I opted to have two pairs, front and rear, in a 'quasi-surround' array, just for grins and to see what happens. A Polk sub is in between the front pair, because with the smaller cones they just can't go low enough; ergo, 'filler' for the 'bottom' below 'bout 150hz. And they get fed a two channel signal; L f&r, R f&r. Nothing discrete, no 'simulated surround', nothing 'magical'...
...and with certain recordings, 'things' seem to be coming from 'behind' you...
That piano is left, rear. Additional percussion is right, rear. Vocals, guitars, and the drum kit stay 'in front', but 'other stuff' has 'moved'...
It's been suggested that interference patterns are causing this effect, and Yes, it's highly subjective and subject (I suspect) to the mix-down...
But, it's There. Absolutely enthralling, at least to this mortal. I hardly listen to the 'stack' of speakers behind them anymore. They're not perfect, far from it. Some resonances, inconsistencies at certain frequencies, they have their limitations, Sure. 31 channels of eq smoothes things out to 'make junk sing'.
But immersive? You betcha'.
I like your dodecahedron...*S* I'm a woodbutcher, and I haven't tried one of those. Contrasted to the MBL101's, it's as close to the 'pulsating sphere' as one can get, short of a plasma source. And we all know the side effects of those...I still like to be able to breathe while listening...*L*
Here's a closer look of the 'fronts', BTB. I'm playing with a '2-way' config; a variant of the Infinity 'ice cream cone' tweeter. Smaller voice coil allows for a smaller cone apex for high extension, giving it a little more 'air'. The back pair is running small dome tweets, similar to the Ohms. OK, but...not the same....ultimately directional, just like the Ohms...
Attachments
...all things being said....
BTB....here's V.4, conceptually.
Better drivers, a 'windowed' cone (5mil with 2mil 'windows'; 5 for strength, 2 for reproduction), tighter tolerances, an improved surround for the cone's base.
Set up for bi-amp...I've got a digital xover (Behringer) that's more than capable and will allow for 'dialing it in'....
Yeah, I know there's carbon fiber and titanium. But I'm cheap. *L*
BTB....here's V.4, conceptually.
Better drivers, a 'windowed' cone (5mil with 2mil 'windows'; 5 for strength, 2 for reproduction), tighter tolerances, an improved surround for the cone's base.
Set up for bi-amp...I've got a digital xover (Behringer) that's more than capable and will allow for 'dialing it in'....
Yeah, I know there's carbon fiber and titanium. But I'm cheap. *L*
Attachments
Love me some Omnis
I own/have owned at least one pair of each of Stewart Hegeman's omnidirectional speakers designs:
The Hegeman Professional
EICO HFS-2
Harman Kardon Citation X
Model 1A
T-1 Tweeter
A little known fact is that Hegeman designed a tweeter much like the Omh/Walsh units that preceded them by a decade or two. This one from my HFS-2 speakers:
I'm 100% in the omni camp. My little Hegeman Model 1A's produce a sound-stage that is frighteningly huge and precise and covers the range from about 25Hz to 20kHz.
With good recordings, you can literally point to all the performers in a performance. You can distinctly tell where singers are standing, where the horns are, bass, etc.
If anyone is interested in these designs, I have reverse engineered many of them, and I'm happy to share!
I own/have owned at least one pair of each of Stewart Hegeman's omnidirectional speakers designs:
The Hegeman Professional
EICO HFS-2
Harman Kardon Citation X
Model 1A
T-1 Tweeter
A little known fact is that Hegeman designed a tweeter much like the Omh/Walsh units that preceded them by a decade or two. This one from my HFS-2 speakers:
I'm 100% in the omni camp. My little Hegeman Model 1A's produce a sound-stage that is frighteningly huge and precise and covers the range from about 25Hz to 20kHz.
With good recordings, you can literally point to all the performers in a performance. You can distinctly tell where singers are standing, where the horns are, bass, etc.
If anyone is interested in these designs, I have reverse engineered many of them, and I'm happy to share!
We'll see what happens...*S*
I looked at the Hegeman patent...has some interesting correlations to the Walsh, but the use of the interior rigid cone is fascinating. One of the effects of a Walsh driver is what I refer to as 'cone honk', the 'megaphone-ish' sound that comes from the interior of the cone. The use of an acoustic 'plug' within the cone obviously eliminates that.
The old Infinity 'ice cream cone' tweeters were a variant, a driven cone filled with a foam. Having owned a pair of those speakers, I always felt the cones never lived up to their potential, having heard a pair of the original Ohm F's eons ago...
I still have my V.2 pair of DIY's, based on a 4" coaxial that have the hole in the center that used to mount the tweeter inside the cone. I think it might behoove me to whip up a pair of inboard cones just to see what happens. It'll be interesting to see if their presence effects the driven cone and how....
Can't hurt 'em. *L* Much... Can't say that for the V.1's, their voice coils decided to fuse with a 'turn on transient'. *Pfht!* RIP.
I looked at the Hegeman patent...has some interesting correlations to the Walsh, but the use of the interior rigid cone is fascinating. One of the effects of a Walsh driver is what I refer to as 'cone honk', the 'megaphone-ish' sound that comes from the interior of the cone. The use of an acoustic 'plug' within the cone obviously eliminates that.
The old Infinity 'ice cream cone' tweeters were a variant, a driven cone filled with a foam. Having owned a pair of those speakers, I always felt the cones never lived up to their potential, having heard a pair of the original Ohm F's eons ago...
I still have my V.2 pair of DIY's, based on a 4" coaxial that have the hole in the center that used to mount the tweeter inside the cone. I think it might behoove me to whip up a pair of inboard cones just to see what happens. It'll be interesting to see if their presence effects the driven cone and how....
Can't hurt 'em. *L* Much... Can't say that for the V.1's, their voice coils decided to fuse with a 'turn on transient'. *Pfht!* RIP.
Wishing all viewers a Happy Xmas & Merry New Year, getting a jump on the time frame. In the meanwhile, don't get mauled at the malls, drive like everyone's just as distracted and goal-oriented as you are, throw the cell into the back seat, and remember there's people like me out there that don't follow their own advice. *L*
...oh, and don't forget to Play LOUD. *G*
...oh, and don't forget to Play LOUD. *G*
My guess is that they just require a lot of room to avoid pronounced early reflections. On the other hand, some owners groove on the reflected sound, in a controlled manner. Electrostatics and of course I will risk having my account deleted by mentioning the venerable Bose 901:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
To make up for mentioning He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, here is a quasi-omni directional from Likwitz. Very cool if you don't mind your speaker looking like a giant toilet plunger:
I can sorta see how facing a driver upwards is 'omidurectioal' in a way, as walkin about it in a circle in free space would sound equal all around. But not spherically witch would be true omi. In atuallity its still a cone with a frequency dependent desperation pattern. Just for use surely a wider range is acheved for a wider listening space to wellplace and point the drivers at it to form within its despertion.. Can image these so called omi to be dipping in the mid as such frequency are more directional.
What about firing with an acoustic coupled inverted type cone thing. But that only good for some freq..
True omi would somehow be creating the vibrations from a sorta spherical baloon type thing made of streetchy rubber where the entire thing expands and contracts in unison to form the waves. Some sort of vacume/blower pump that modulates the air.. Beyond this imnot sure how it would atually work, just how it would, i have designs. I lovr ideas. Got one to create sound from one sorce suspended in space. v awsome n not to be shared yet.
What about firing with an acoustic coupled inverted type cone thing. But that only good for some freq..
True omi would somehow be creating the vibrations from a sorta spherical baloon type thing made of streetchy rubber where the entire thing expands and contracts in unison to form the waves. Some sort of vacume/blower pump that modulates the air.. Beyond this imnot sure how it would atually work, just how it would, i have designs. I lovr ideas. Got one to create sound from one sorce suspended in space. v awsome n not to be shared yet.
Flavour of the Month
In early 70's when Omni was "in Vogue", later on Dipoles superceeded as the latest marketing fad.
Chasing foolish trends (sales) even Tannoy had an upward firing Driver , facing into an exact copy of it's driver cone as the "dispersal' gizmo.
They were at best OK.. when I heard them.
But not worth buying and a waste of a good driver.
So it died out.. really quickly. No surprise there.
In early 70's when Omni was "in Vogue", later on Dipoles superceeded as the latest marketing fad.
Chasing foolish trends (sales) even Tannoy had an upward firing Driver , facing into an exact copy of it's driver cone as the "dispersal' gizmo.
They were at best OK.. when I heard them.
But not worth buying and a waste of a good driver.
So it died out.. really quickly. No surprise there.
I can sorta see how facing a driver upwards is 'omidurectioal' in a way, as walkin about it in a circle in free space would sound equal all around. But not spherically witch would be true omi. In atuallity its still a cone with a frequency dependent desperation pattern. Just for use surely a wider range is acheved for a wider listening space to wellplace and point the drivers at it to form within its despertion.. Can image these so called omi to be dipping in the mid as such frequency are more directional.
Not sure anyone cares about firing into the floor or ceiling, but you are right in that the dispersion of the driver is important. Linkwitz is one of the godfathers of crossover design though, so I'm sure he's thought this through. By crossing the woofer (and I use the term loosely here) low enough you eliminate such issues.