I ordered a set of phase plugs from planet10 today.. I hope to hear some improvement in HF directivity and some reduction in sibilance as a minimum. It's quite pronounced on some material (vocals, but also some percussive sounds) even at reasonable Spl levels beyond say 80dB or so at my listening position.
These drivers need to break in, but I am not sure what to expect yet other than a possible improvement in bass extension..
I've got about 16 hours of run in time on these drivers so far..
These drivers need to break in, but I am not sure what to expect yet other than a possible improvement in bass extension..
I've got about 16 hours of run in time on these drivers so far..
To my ears it took 200 - 300 hours for mine to open up.
You will get more bass, but more importantly, smoothness in the mid frequencies.
Although nothing beats EnABL to bring out their best IMO.
Cheers,
Alex
That's encouraging, I have heard some improvement in the midrange already at about 20hrs, and the bass what there is of it has improved significantly.
My Onkens have 16" woofers so it is a surprise to hear a little driver that manages any bass output at all. At this point they are quite listenable, time and Dave's phase plugs should help a bit..
My Onkens have 16" woofers so it is a surprise to hear a little driver that manages any bass output at all. At this point they are quite listenable, time and Dave's phase plugs should help a bit..
This thread peaked my interest due to the fact that I am looking for some other cabinet to park my FE167E into. I'm not sure what the difference is but the the this Half-Chili cabinet would be the same. I'm using the FT-1600 v.1 at the moment and do find the low end a bit wanting. The low tones are there but, as other have said, they are a bit wooly and lumpy. I am looking for more definition in the mid to low registers and was hoping the Half-Chili would help (BTW, the wifey would not appreciate the whole Chili). I also was thinking about adding a small sub and was wondering if it would intergate better with the Half-Chilis or the ML-TL?
So Kevin, keep listening and let us know how things are improving or not. Lastly, you might want to try and remove the Zobel. I think it sounds better without it at least in with my FE167e...
So Kevin, keep listening and let us know how things are improving or not. Lastly, you might want to try and remove the Zobel. I think it sounds better without it at least in with my FE167e...
RockysDad,
the void behind the bottom reflector could be used to accomodate a CSS SDX7, maybe even a Trio8. There is also a Wavecor that fits into quite a small box.
At the expense of a more fiddly build, an additional box to consider for the FE167 is the Fonken167. In its lastest iteration there is sufficient space in the (optional) base to support a woofer -- the design was tweaked to make this easier,
dave
the void behind the bottom reflector could be used to accomodate a CSS SDX7, maybe even a Trio8. There is also a Wavecor that fits into quite a small box.
At the expense of a more fiddly build, an additional box to consider for the FE167 is the Fonken167. In its lastest iteration there is sufficient space in the (optional) base to support a woofer -- the design was tweaked to make this easier,
dave
Attachments
Tell me more about what you are thinking here. Its a path that might be worth pursuing. Is there enough room in there for a small woofer? Can this woofer be powered somehow? I only have a flea powered SE amp...
I've thought about this design but am limited by my woodworking skills. Also, how much more will I gain vs a ML-TL in terms of time, effort and $$$? I'm not convinced its worth it or should I be?????
Maybe i spoke to soon. Only 0.16 ft^3 in that void. I was thinking back to Brynn which has a larger cavity. You'd have to bulge that out. You can get away with as little as 0.25 ft^3 for the SDX7
You would want to use an external amp (whether a repurposed vintage receiver, chip amp, or something like PE's "external plate amp").
There is no question in my mind that it is a big step up from the ML-TL. Much more finese in the bottom end.
dave
fiddly
This new Fonken 167 does look fiddly but I like fiddly when I set down to do some building. This at least gives me a new inspiration to do something with my 167e. Some ailments have taken me out of the active participation in builds here so not much posting.
But a dedicated thread to the Fonken167 would be most appreciated. It appears to be a style that has more flexibility than the MLTL (one from GM) with port on the bottom for the 167e. That's the one I have to compare.
This new Fonken 167 does look fiddly but I like fiddly when I set down to do some building. This at least gives me a new inspiration to do something with my 167e. Some ailments have taken me out of the active participation in builds here so not much posting.
But a dedicated thread to the Fonken167 would be most appreciated. It appears to be a style that has more flexibility than the MLTL (one from GM) with port on the bottom for the 167e. That's the one I have to compare.
I actually started without BSC and the zobel network and found the sound seriously wanting. Some simple calculations and a couple of measurements confirmed that baffle step was the issue and with the narrow baffle it was pretty severe. The speakers sounded just dreadful and this is not a break-in related issue, the physics of the baffle design determine how the speaker radiates into space at a given frequency. (I'm not an expert - read MJK's paper on the subject)
Also the BSC in order to work correctly requires a relatively constant impedance to work into which is what the zobel provides, removing it results in a 6dB notch centered roughly around 1kHz due the rising reactance with frequency due to the VC inductance.
Believe me the BSC is really needed! (Based on my current level of experience) Night and day difference - good bass, smoother sounding and measured frequency response, big hit in efficiency which oddly is not that noticeable because I could not stand them loud before. With BSC these sound good with a wide range of musical material, without they sounded tolerable on some small jazz ensembles and female vocals at low spls, otherwise they were pretty unpleasant to listen to.
They have improved noticeably in 20hrs of use. They will suit the intended purpose quite well. (Audio fests, small parties, change of pace, etc.)
My reference system is very large diy Onken bass cabs with 16" Iconic 165-8 woofers, so I am well acquainted with what a good bottom end sounds like. Subjectively there just wasn't any bass without BSC with the FE167 - what there is with it sounds pretty good actually. (Room measurements confirm both.)
Last edited:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Dave I like both the speakers and the garden behind them.. Yours?
Pretty cool, I struggle with just a single pair build although my father in law and I have discovered that there is a bit of a learning curve and the second box always goes a lot better than the first.. 
In my neck of the woods I am one of the rare ones who actually builds speaker systems. (Some of them are also my own design.) Most of my compadres are into old pro Altec and RCA speaker systems. In most cases sonically I am doing at least as well as they are, and I really enjoy the process of designing/building and voicing my projects.
While the HCC is not an Abby I think they are sounding better every day.. I use them a lot - I guess it is the attraction of something new to play with.. Now I have to figure out where I can put them so that I can use them regularly because ultimately this room belongs to the Onkens..
My speakers look a bit industrial, but I've always cared more about the performance than appearance although these days I try to make something that has at least a little WAF amongst other things..
In my neck of the woods I am one of the rare ones who actually builds speaker systems. (Some of them are also my own design.) Most of my compadres are into old pro Altec and RCA speaker systems. In most cases sonically I am doing at least as well as they are, and I really enjoy the process of designing/building and voicing my projects.
While the HCC is not an Abby
I think they are sounding better every day.. I use them a lot - I guess it is the attraction of something new to play with.. Now I have to figure out where I can put them so that I can use them regularly because ultimately this room belongs to the Onkens.. My speakers look a bit industrial, but I've always cared more about the performance than appearance although these days I try to make something that has at least a little WAF amongst other things..
As Promised: In Room FR Measurements
The attached graph is the result of my most careful (not very) measurement in a very cluttered listening room. Note that I have used 1/3 octave smoothing, the spl levels referenced are accurate to within a couple of dB based on comparison with my long ago calibrated spl meter.
The response could be considered flat within +/- 5dB from 60Hz - 15kHz excluding the peak at 900Hz, which considering the environment this was done in is something of a miracle. There is a lot of room interaction, probably in an anechoic chamber or outdoors the response would be significantly flatter.
Note that I would not consider this measurement (the best of several) to be anything like definitive. I'm playing with Arta and measuring my latest speaker system is all - and I am on a learning curve as far as man cave acoustical measurements are concerned.
Also despite what you might possibly and mistakenly suspect from these measurements they sound quite good. While not in Onken territory, they image quite well, have a subjectively smooth if somewhat bright sounding presentation and resolve better than I expected. They are quite listenable on a wide range of material which is a BIG surprise - I'm currently listening to Depeche Mode and they are doing quite well. Despite what the measurement indicates about treble response I am not aware subjectively of any lack of HF extension. Occasionally I am aware that something like a high hat, snare or synthesizer sounds quite wrong, and there are still hints of sibilance here and there - they do seem to be improving.. I expect the phase plugs will help a lot with the HF performance. They do seem very quick, and the bass is well controlled (what there is of it). They do not go very deep, but what bass there is sounds well controlled. The BVR horn end contributes most of the low end..(Obviously?)
The attached graph is the result of my most careful (not very) measurement in a very cluttered listening room. Note that I have used 1/3 octave smoothing, the spl levels referenced are accurate to within a couple of dB based on comparison with my long ago calibrated spl meter.
The response could be considered flat within +/- 5dB from 60Hz - 15kHz excluding the peak at 900Hz, which considering the environment this was done in is something of a miracle. There is a lot of room interaction, probably in an anechoic chamber or outdoors the response would be significantly flatter.
Note that I would not consider this measurement (the best of several) to be anything like definitive. I'm playing with Arta and measuring my latest speaker system is all - and I am on a learning curve as far as man cave acoustical measurements are concerned.
Also despite what you might possibly and mistakenly suspect from these measurements they sound quite good. While not in Onken territory, they image quite well, have a subjectively smooth if somewhat bright sounding presentation and resolve better than I expected. They are quite listenable on a wide range of material which is a BIG surprise - I'm currently listening to Depeche Mode and they are doing quite well. Despite what the measurement indicates about treble response I am not aware subjectively of any lack of HF extension. Occasionally I am aware that something like a high hat, snare or synthesizer sounds quite wrong, and there are still hints of sibilance here and there - they do seem to be improving.. I expect the phase plugs will help a lot with the HF performance. They do seem very quick, and the bass is well controlled (what there is of it). They do not go very deep, but what bass there is sounds well controlled. The BVR horn end contributes most of the low end..(Obviously?)
Attachments
Last edited:
I just put the Onkens back into service after spending a week listening exclusively to the HCC, quite a different experience. The Onkens clearly have another octave on the bottom end, at least 10dB greater efficiency, a much flatter in room response, and much better HF dispersion than the HCC and sound quite understated by comparison. (They measure a lot better in room in all parameters than the HCC)
The FE167 in the HCC enclosure definitely has an immediacy to the sound which while probably not very accurate is quite compelling. My suspicion is that the utter lack of any deep bass does result in a subjectively lighter and more immediate sound quality. The lack of real bass is quite obvious on anything that has deep bass, but the effect is present on most material where you don't notice the bass until it isn't there.
The Onkens manage depth and sound staging in a way that the HCC will never match...
Still I find the FE167 based Half Chili Changs to be quite an interesting speaker to listen to, and as I alluded to in another post I need to figure out where I can put them so that I can use them on a regular basis - I think they need their own space and system but that may be an impossibility.
Can't wait for the phase plugs and for their break in to be complete. I've got something like 30hrs on them now..
The FE167 in the HCC enclosure definitely has an immediacy to the sound which while probably not very accurate is quite compelling. My suspicion is that the utter lack of any deep bass does result in a subjectively lighter and more immediate sound quality. The lack of real bass is quite obvious on anything that has deep bass, but the effect is present on most material where you don't notice the bass until it isn't there.
The Onkens manage depth and sound staging in a way that the HCC will never match...
Still I find the FE167 based Half Chili Changs to be quite an interesting speaker to listen to, and as I alluded to in another post I need to figure out where I can put them so that I can use them on a regular basis - I think they need their own space and system but that may be an impossibility.
Can't wait for the phase plugs and for their break in to be complete. I've got something like 30hrs on them now..
Dave's phase plugs arrived last night, (that was pretty quick as I ordered them late last week - thanks Dave!) I hope to install them before the Olympic ice skating gets started tonight.
Once the phase plugs are installed I will do some listening with more measurements to follow. (within a few days or so) I'll keep them in the system for a while and try to get some more hours on them.
Once the phase plugs are installed I will do some listening with more measurements to follow. (within a few days or so) I'll keep them in the system for a while and try to get some more hours on them.
I couldn't agree more! A BSC is needed for this driver. I suggested that you leave out the Zobel because in my case with the Bob's FT-1600 design, he mentioned that it sounded better without it and I agreed when I tried it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/41919-building-ml-tl-fostex-fe-167-e.html
But then again we are not comparing apples to apples (HCC vs FT-1600 and FE167 vs FE167e) but thought it might be worth trying...
So keep us posted with all your findings and keep up with the burn-in for these drivers. Things will start settling down after about 100 hour or so.
Hi Rocky,
Will definitely do.. Modeling the BSC with the VC dcr and inductance (measured) indicated that without the zobel the BSC really doesn't work as intended. The curve looks suspiciously similar if somewhat extreme so I'll take more than a little liberty and...- hint: "All highs, all lows, must be **rythms with doze**"
(Just one of the many versions of a particularly popular expression...
)The BSC without zobel looks like boosted bass/treble tone control response with a -6dB or so dip at 1kHz. Not quite what I need. Have you measured the response with BSC and no zobel?
Kevin
Last edited:
No, only with my ears...
FT-1600 MKII Design Details
I ended up with a 5 ohm and 1.5mH choke for my purposes. I'm not sure how or why this "notch filter" works in this particular case but I do trust the designer and if he says try it, I will and in this case I liked what I heard...
I carefully installed the phase plugs tonight and spent about an hour listening. I also ran them in "break-in mode" for a short period of time at around 800mW at 30Hz. (About 20 minutes)
I really did notice some significant improvement in imaging on axis, and a reduction in sibilance as well..
I reswept them and the 190Hz high Q resonance has moved up to about 210Hz and is somewhat lower in amplitude since I removed the dust cap.. The whizzers buzz at certain discrete frequencies out to 600Hz where I stopped sweeping.. (There is only so much one's ears can take.. ) Overall the phase plugs improved a not great situation considerably so if full range drivers are really your bag I think this is a good tweak to spend some money on.
Subjectively the imaging improved from my dedicated listening position, highs seemed considerably smoother, complex multi-layer vocal tracks gained clarity, subjectively off-axis dispersion has improved to some degree. (Umm, still not great.) Not sure what the measurements will reveal, but I expect there will be some improvement in high frequency response & smoothness.
The phase plugs are beautifully finished and popped in with a minimum of fuss once I cut out the dust caps.. Incidentally the sharpest X-Acto knife blade is just sharp enough. I installed a new one on my knife and it was just adequately sharp so in short do not use a used one!!
Next I am going to look at damping the whizzer cone edge slightly a la Wharfedale - they used a light weight foam around their whizzers.
I am really not sure about the cone material in the FE167, hopefully the FE167E represents a significant improvement. There is an odd coloration to the sound under some circumstances that I find very unpleasant to listen to which I suspect may be nothing more than a combination of break up modes and mis-behavior in that whizzer cone.. (I am used to the sound of JBL 2402 and 4333 horns from >800Hz which if nothing else are well behaved at my typical spl levels, uniform dispersion, and I like the way the combination sounds - very detailed and non-fatiguing sound.. Surprised?)
Given the propensity for the whizzer to buzz when excited at certain frequencies I believe that distortion measurements will show a relatively high level of distortion in the output of this driver. The box incidentally is very well behaved - this is entirely from the driver. I am not sure whether break-in will in any way effect the way modes propagate through the cone material which is the only way I think this would change. (I am not expecting an improvement bluntly.)
The other day I took the HCC out of the system and thought I was missing something sonically, (excitement perhaps) but today they stayed in the system for less than a couple of hours, and returning to the Onkens was a huge relief. (Not surprised really.)
It is difficult for me to make a fair assessment of how they sound given they are not fully broken in, but I also believe that "they are what they are," and given what I listen to normally, my perception is that they are not quite good enough at certain things that are important to me. They might be good in a smaller room with more euphonic electronics than mine. I will eventually get around to trying it with a "softer" sounding amp and see where that gets me. Right now I'm not overwhelmed.
I really did notice some significant improvement in imaging on axis, and a reduction in sibilance as well..
I reswept them and the 190Hz high Q resonance has moved up to about 210Hz and is somewhat lower in amplitude since I removed the dust cap.. The whizzers buzz at certain discrete frequencies out to 600Hz where I stopped sweeping.. (There is only so much one's ears can take..
) Overall the phase plugs improved a not great situation considerably so if full range drivers are really your bag I think this is a good tweak to spend some money on.Subjectively the imaging improved from my dedicated listening position, highs seemed considerably smoother, complex multi-layer vocal tracks gained clarity, subjectively off-axis dispersion has improved to some degree. (Umm, still not great.) Not sure what the measurements will reveal, but I expect there will be some improvement in high frequency response & smoothness.
The phase plugs are beautifully finished and popped in with a minimum of fuss once I cut out the dust caps.. Incidentally the sharpest X-Acto knife blade is just sharp enough. I installed a new one on my knife and it was just adequately sharp so in short do not use a used one!!
Next I am going to look at damping the whizzer cone edge slightly a la Wharfedale - they used a light weight foam around their whizzers.
I am really not sure about the cone material in the FE167, hopefully the FE167E represents a significant improvement. There is an odd coloration to the sound under some circumstances that I find very unpleasant to listen to which I suspect may be nothing more than a combination of break up modes and mis-behavior in that whizzer cone.. (I am used to the sound of JBL 2402 and 4333 horns from >800Hz which if nothing else are well behaved at my typical spl levels, uniform dispersion, and I like the way the combination sounds - very detailed and non-fatiguing sound.. Surprised?)
Given the propensity for the whizzer to buzz when excited at certain frequencies I believe that distortion measurements will show a relatively high level of distortion in the output of this driver. The box incidentally is very well behaved - this is entirely from the driver. I am not sure whether break-in will in any way effect the way modes propagate through the cone material which is the only way I think this would change. (I am not expecting an improvement bluntly.)
The other day I took the HCC out of the system and thought I was missing something sonically, (excitement perhaps) but today they stayed in the system for less than a couple of hours, and returning to the Onkens was a huge relief. (Not surprised really.)
It is difficult for me to make a fair assessment of how they sound given they are not fully broken in, but I also believe that "they are what they are," and given what I listen to normally, my perception is that they are not quite good enough at certain things that are important to me. They might be good in a smaller room with more euphonic electronics than mine. I will eventually get around to trying it with a "softer" sounding amp and see where that gets me. Right now I'm not overwhelmed.
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Rocky,
I suspect if you measure it you will find it is doing some interesting things to the FR - not necessarily bad sounding, but I bet it is not flat..
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.