Well, what exectly is a 'pro driver'? I think some components labeled 'pro' certainly have hi fidelity applications. Some of my favorites? The Selenium WPU1507, D405 and the ST324. These drivers are capable of very musical results. Are they 'pro' drivers? Certainly. Just like the classic Altec, Jensen, JBL, EV, Bozak, etc. Used properly, they excel at hi fidelity. Cross over the D405 at 500 Hz, and you will have a midrange capable of astonishing realism.
Once you experience this level of performance, no wimpy stamped frame 'consumer only' stuff will exite you anymore.
All joking aside, when used poorly, 'pro' stuff sounds as bad as cheap consumer stuff used poorly. When used well, it will leave consumer stuff in the dust.
http://www.highefficiencyloudspeakers.com/EnclosurePlans.html
Once you experience this level of performance, no wimpy stamped frame 'consumer only' stuff will exite you anymore.
All joking aside, when used poorly, 'pro' stuff sounds as bad as cheap consumer stuff used poorly. When used well, it will leave consumer stuff in the dust.
http://www.highefficiencyloudspeakers.com/EnclosurePlans.html
DSP_Geek said:
I've thought about them, especially with the 49 cent specials Parts express has been selling. The descriptions people have posted who have built them are very tempting. The trouble is that once I'm sold on the idea of line arrays, which seems likely from the glowing descriptions people have posted about them, I'd probably want to do one with better drivers. Fact is, a six foot array with premium drivers is just never going to be a reality for me. That said, some day I want to build something with those really cool BG ribbons that are 5 or 6 feet tall. I really like the design discussed earlier in this thread with the four woofers and the tall ribbon. But thats for another time in the distant future. Who knows, by that time maybe they'll have a full range plasma driver or something
.The choices dwindle as the efficiency goes up, so combining units is a reasonable solution. Arrays can work very well.
For a pure mid, the Audax Pro 170MO, which is about to be discontinued, has very high efficiency - clocks in at nearly 100 dB. Solen, maybe, or Madisound.
To match up with this high efficiency unit, your need to bi-amp and cross actively to bass. Better sound anyway.
Focal has also announced limited distribution, but available at Zalytron in lower 90's dB.
PHL has mid-90s efficient mids, and PHY has full range units, though costly.
For a possible lower priced combo, I'd look at a pair of the Seas CB17RCY/P which looks to have well controlled behavior and paper cones. You could cross over from a your bass unit in the 150 Hz range or lower, too. The pair combined, you would be at least 94 dB, but your amp would have to be 4 ohm capable.
The Aurum Cantis G2si ribbon at 96 dB might work well with these. Available at Creative Sound Solutions.
There are also good vintage units available used on Ebay(crap shoot), or perhaps Planet 10 has a pair he's picked up.
Tim
For a pure mid, the Audax Pro 170MO, which is about to be discontinued, has very high efficiency - clocks in at nearly 100 dB. Solen, maybe, or Madisound.
To match up with this high efficiency unit, your need to bi-amp and cross actively to bass. Better sound anyway.
Focal has also announced limited distribution, but available at Zalytron in lower 90's dB.
PHL has mid-90s efficient mids, and PHY has full range units, though costly.
For a possible lower priced combo, I'd look at a pair of the Seas CB17RCY/P which looks to have well controlled behavior and paper cones. You could cross over from a your bass unit in the 150 Hz range or lower, too. The pair combined, you would be at least 94 dB, but your amp would have to be 4 ohm capable.
The Aurum Cantis G2si ribbon at 96 dB might work well with these. Available at Creative Sound Solutions.
There are also good vintage units available used on Ebay(crap shoot), or perhaps Planet 10 has a pair he's picked up.
Tim
I was looking at phl's recently.
I looked at the graphs here (link thanks to Michaelpage26), but could find no others.
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=gl_szczegoly&firma=phl&model=1340&lang=pl&dh=dt
This would then need a mid bass crossed to it at 500/600 hz which is in the 'vocal etc' range that most people don't want to cross at. Notice the sens drops to 'hifi' levels around 500Hz too ?
If anyone knows of any high sens 6-7" drivers that roll off in sealed boxes around the 200 - 250 mark please let me know
Tim,
I would go active by default for the mmtmm+ww+sub monster - probably a pair of dcx2496's for now. Problem is I need a room big enough to squeeze 3 of them in for left/centre/right in a HT setup.
ps don't forget to factor in baffle step when thinking of efficiency as it robs up to 6dB. I always do my guesstimates with a full 6dB correction, even though many only do 3dB etc..
I looked at the graphs here (link thanks to Michaelpage26), but could find no others.
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=gl_szczegoly&firma=phl&model=1340&lang=pl&dh=dt
This would then need a mid bass crossed to it at 500/600 hz which is in the 'vocal etc' range that most people don't want to cross at. Notice the sens drops to 'hifi' levels around 500Hz too ?
If anyone knows of any high sens 6-7" drivers that roll off in sealed boxes around the 200 - 250 mark please let me know
Tim,
I would go active by default for the mmtmm+ww+sub monster - probably a pair of dcx2496's for now. Problem is I need a room big enough to squeeze 3 of them in for left/centre/right in a HT setup.
ps don't forget to factor in baffle step when thinking of efficiency as it robs up to 6dB. I always do my guesstimates with a full 6dB correction, even though many only do 3dB etc..
Seas
By pair, I meant a pair each channel for the Seas, in case that wasn't clear.
Years ago, I built a Cabasse 8" two-way which, although only 91 - 92 dB, still sounds good on just 8 watts toob power in my smaller 11.5 ft x 15.5 ft former bedroom now music room.
Also, hard to find these days.
Rob,
Let's see... small fortune in components, high complexity design, digital crossovers, multiple amps, large real estate requirements.
You crazy?
Yeah, PHL doesn't publish any useful measurement data, which is frustrating.
Tim
By pair, I meant a pair each channel for the Seas, in case that wasn't clear.
Years ago, I built a Cabasse 8" two-way which, although only 91 - 92 dB, still sounds good on just 8 watts toob power in my smaller 11.5 ft x 15.5 ft former bedroom now music room.
Also, hard to find these days.
Rob,
Let's see... small fortune in components, high complexity design, digital crossovers, multiple amps, large real estate requirements.
You crazy?
Yeah, PHL doesn't publish any useful measurement data, which is frustrating.
Tim
Re: Seas
DiyAudio.com - projects by the fanatics, for the fanatics.
I've already got 3 tempests here, 4 s-speak 8565 10"ers and 1 dcx2496. Already quad amping my 3 ways (2x10", 1x 5.5" 1 tweet) So -only- need to add 1 tempest, 8 mids and 2 new tweets , and 1 dcx for a stereo pair. Maybe add a couple more second hand integrated amps, or trade in my lot for a pair of ht 5 channel amps. I've got a rotel 985 already so maybe just add another of them. Could get a fair bit back for my old mids/tweets (s-speak revelator mid and tweet) to ease the pain.
I get mdf/ply at trade prices, and have the tools at my work to make the cabinet stuff easy.
Not as crazy as it first seems, but I would have to put the overtime in to realize it.
The good thing is sytems like this are expandable - buy 4 mids first and use a 'rough' box then add the other 4 later and build the proper one. Same with subs. 1 per side then add 2nd per side. Can even build the correct box for the subs and blank off the 2nd hole until you have the 2nd sub. Actually you could do this with the mid box if you used seperate chambers for each driver.
Cheers,
Rob
Tim Moorman said:
DiyAudio.com - projects by the fanatics, for the fanatics.I've already got 3 tempests here, 4 s-speak 8565 10"ers and 1 dcx2496. Already quad amping my 3 ways (2x10", 1x 5.5" 1 tweet) So -only- need to add 1 tempest, 8 mids and 2 new tweets , and 1 dcx for a stereo pair. Maybe add a couple more second hand integrated amps, or trade in my lot for a pair of ht 5 channel amps. I've got a rotel 985 already so maybe just add another of them. Could get a fair bit back for my old mids/tweets (s-speak revelator mid and tweet) to ease the pain.
I get mdf/ply at trade prices, and have the tools at my work to make the cabinet stuff easy.
Not as crazy as it first seems, but I would have to put the overtime in to realize it.
The good thing is sytems like this are expandable - buy 4 mids first and use a 'rough' box then add the other 4 later and build the proper one. Same with subs. 1 per side then add 2nd per side. Can even build the correct box for the subs and blank off the 2nd hole until you have the 2nd sub. Actually you could do this with the mid box if you used seperate chambers for each driver.
Cheers,
Rob
dvdwmth said:
Well, depending on what you can afford, those PE cheapies I use for test are not bad. The resonance is about 50 Hz, so you might want to use a Linkwitz transform if you don't want to mess with a woofer. $6.50 including shipping, probably about 9 loonies, multiplied by 8 is still less than a hundred bucks a side. Set up a simple biamp rig to match up the tweeter sensitivity, or wind a transformer to bump up the tweeter, and you're there. All told you should be able to get away at less than $200 Canadian a side including lumber.
Francois.
Line Array
I just finished a set of Line arrays as I posted earlier.
They are very very nice.
If I was to do it all over again I would use better drivers.
I built these with low cost Dayton Drivers to see how they would sound.
I've never heard speakers sound so good and clear.
The clarity comes from the cones not working very hard.
At 96 db you can barely see the cones move.
You have to touch them to know they are working.
My next arrays will be with better drivers. The RS Daytons with the BG ribbons, probably the Neo8 PDR's...
I'll also build seperate cubicles for 2,3 or 4 drivers. Depends on the power tapering.
My next project is to build an MTM box. To see and compare my Line Arrays with a good point source monitor with an excellent midrange driver. Probably an Excel..
If your skeptical about Line Arrays as I was. Than the only way you'll ever find out what Jim Griffin says about them is to hear them or build a cheap set to find out if you'll like them
As I was listening to them today I could swear they were playing in 3D. My regular speakers sounded 2D in comparison...
I just finished a set of Line arrays as I posted earlier.
They are very very nice.
If I was to do it all over again I would use better drivers.
I built these with low cost Dayton Drivers to see how they would sound.
I've never heard speakers sound so good and clear.
The clarity comes from the cones not working very hard.
At 96 db you can barely see the cones move.
You have to touch them to know they are working.
My next arrays will be with better drivers. The RS Daytons with the BG ribbons, probably the Neo8 PDR's...
I'll also build seperate cubicles for 2,3 or 4 drivers. Depends on the power tapering.
My next project is to build an MTM box. To see and compare my Line Arrays with a good point source monitor with an excellent midrange driver. Probably an Excel..
If your skeptical about Line Arrays as I was. Than the only way you'll ever find out what Jim Griffin says about them is to hear them or build a cheap set to find out if you'll like them
As I was listening to them today I could swear they were playing in 3D. My regular speakers sounded 2D in comparison...
Rob,
Joking, of course.
I have a pair of the SS 10" 8565-00 from some years back in sealed, powered 90l boxes I use for subs on a small system. Work great. Not enough output for a large room or drunken revelry, but they do go very low. Work well for HT in medium room.
This was before the days of the big displacement subs, so you took what you could get.
I also have a 700l horn sub I built that will shake the entire house. 28 Hz cutoff. Scary loud. Refrigerator-sized. Now that's crazy.
Are the Tempests sealed? How about the SS midbass- sealed?What's the mid ?
Tim
Joking, of course.
I have a pair of the SS 10" 8565-00 from some years back in sealed, powered 90l boxes I use for subs on a small system. Work great. Not enough output for a large room or drunken revelry, but they do go very low. Work well for HT in medium room.
This was before the days of the big displacement subs, so you took what you could get.
I also have a 700l horn sub I built that will shake the entire house. 28 Hz cutoff. Scary loud. Refrigerator-sized. Now that's crazy.
Are the Tempests sealed? How about the SS midbass- sealed?What's the mid ?
Tim
Baffle Step
Rob,
Right you are on the baffle step correction, though 6 dB might be a little heavy. Also, the bass unit hadn't been discussed, or cross-points, but it can't be overlooked unless a dipole arrangement is chosen. I think these can be very enjoyable in a line array or not.
You might give dipole a go sometime, if you haven't already. It will require correction/bi-amp for the roll-off, but you are all set anyway.
Tim
Rob,
Right you are on the baffle step correction, though 6 dB might be a little heavy. Also, the bass unit hadn't been discussed, or cross-points, but it can't be overlooked unless a dipole arrangement is chosen. I think these can be very enjoyable in a line array or not.
You might give dipole a go sometime, if you haven't already. It will require correction/bi-amp for the roll-off, but you are all set anyway.
Tim
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim,
The bass cabs can be seen here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5868&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=15
Sealed 120L. I use a little eq to make them flat to 20Hz then cross them to my tempests at 40Hz at24dB/oct. - 12dB from the dcx and 12 from my av processor (means I can do bass re-direction for rears and use subs stereo without switching anything about)
My mids are 8530 -k00 drivers(sealed), and the tweeter is the ss 9900
At the moment xo points are 250 and 1800Hz.
the tempests are sealed too, can be seen here :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20091&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=9
I measured the tempests at 15hz, 105dB (at seating - about 10') and it worked out to about 5% distortion. Thats with an ecm8000, trueRTA, and a spl meter so not too scientific but it sounded clean to my ears. My roof started leaking the day after I did that btw
Cheers,
Rob
Hornlover - There doesn't seem to be much available to do 150/200Hz to 2000Hz. Am I not looking hard enough ? A lot of horn stuff seems to cross to 15's etc around 500Hz.
Projects
Hey Rob,
Really nice work! The SS double 10" enclosure is a thing a' beauty, all right. Looks like something right of B&W's line.
That driver does have a nice, full tone in the midbass/upper bass.
The subs are extreme in that room. Great work there, too, with the precision bracing and tapered panels.
I actually thought you weren't entirely serious to begin with, but that is definately not the case.
I'll email you next time I summon the courage to do the veneering on my boxes. Kinda stuck right now with Baltic Birch and Oak trim.
Thanks for the look. Here's one of the horn sub.
Tim
Hey Rob,
Really nice work! The SS double 10" enclosure is a thing a' beauty, all right. Looks like something right of B&W's line.
That driver does have a nice, full tone in the midbass/upper bass.
The subs are extreme in that room. Great work there, too, with the precision bracing and tapered panels.
I actually thought you weren't entirely serious to begin with, but that is definately not the case.
I'll email you next time I summon the courage to do the veneering on my boxes. Kinda stuck right now with Baltic Birch and Oak trim.
Thanks for the look. Here's one of the horn sub.
Tim
Tim & Hornlover, I fully agree with you. And I am still amazed that these kind of speakers don't attract more people here as they are pretty much ideal for DIY:ing. But in my experience we are a rare and endangered spieces 'round here.
If you have the time, please chime in on this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45092 for discussion of some rather new pro sound cone midranges.
Cheers
/Magnus
Re: Projects
Wow great sub - makes my tempests look like dwarves
A pair of them back to back across the front wall would be amazing - would fire into the corner, and with the right room width could possibly give more extention ? Maybe behind a false wall with the exits covered by grill material - pure stealth.
The thing is what type of horn would bridge the gap between your horn and these 2" and 1" compression drivers ? 8" midbass unit horn loaded ?
Cheers,
Rob
Tim Moorman said:
Wow great sub - makes my tempests look like dwarves
A pair of them back to back across the front wall would be amazing - would fire into the corner, and with the right room width could possibly give more extention ? Maybe behind a false wall with the exits covered by grill material - pure stealth.
The thing is what type of horn would bridge the gap between your horn and these 2" and 1" compression drivers ? 8" midbass unit horn loaded ?
Cheers,
Rob
Bass Horn
The bass horn is has such massive output, I only fire it up now on rare occasions. Hard to tame the beast. Really more of a small club unit, and it should be used in the corner. It uses twin 10" drivers, capable of perhaps 120 dB at 30Hz, nearly 130 dB at 50 Hz on maybe 40 watts. About 105dB sensitive, so only a few watts are needed at sane levels.
The size of the horn is a direct result of the cut-off frequency.
For example, 100 Hz midbass using a 1/4 wavelength would require a ~2.83 ft pathway(1132 ft./100/4=2.83 ft. where 1132 ft/s is the speed of sound, 100 is the frequency in Hz of cut-off, and 4 is the 1/4 wavelength), usually folded for bass units to get into a reasonable box.
Horns are interesting devices; they do have their own set of problems, but offer the builder an alternative when high output and low distortion are key requirements. Athough the boxes get very large in lower frequencies, and the pinpoint single source is lost when several devices must be used due to fairly narrow bandwidth, they can provide very good sound.
Adire now has a Tempest sub on their site. Click DIY, and scroll down the left side to the last option.
http://www.adireaudio.com/
The output is not as smooth as a direct radiator if the pathway has been foreshortened, as in the case of the Adire unit. You also will not get the deep extension you have now.
Old Altec two-way in 200L Onken enclosure shown here.
Tim
The bass horn is has such massive output, I only fire it up now on rare occasions. Hard to tame the beast. Really more of a small club unit, and it should be used in the corner. It uses twin 10" drivers, capable of perhaps 120 dB at 30Hz, nearly 130 dB at 50 Hz on maybe 40 watts. About 105dB sensitive, so only a few watts are needed at sane levels.
The size of the horn is a direct result of the cut-off frequency.
For example, 100 Hz midbass using a 1/4 wavelength would require a ~2.83 ft pathway(1132 ft./100/4=2.83 ft. where 1132 ft/s is the speed of sound, 100 is the frequency in Hz of cut-off, and 4 is the 1/4 wavelength), usually folded for bass units to get into a reasonable box.
Horns are interesting devices; they do have their own set of problems, but offer the builder an alternative when high output and low distortion are key requirements. Athough the boxes get very large in lower frequencies, and the pinpoint single source is lost when several devices must be used due to fairly narrow bandwidth, they can provide very good sound.
Adire now has a Tempest sub on their site. Click DIY, and scroll down the left side to the last option.
http://www.adireaudio.com/
The output is not as smooth as a direct radiator if the pathway has been foreshortened, as in the case of the Adire unit. You also will not get the deep extension you have now.
Old Altec two-way in 200L Onken enclosure shown here.
Tim
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.