If you ask a specific question, I can probably can answer it sort of right from all of these nasty decades of empirical suffering.
I'm not too willing to get bogged down in this issue, it does seem valid but how to address it opens a can of worms. Not many seem interested enough and to my mind it was less of an issue when we all had tone controls. These days however I think it plays more of a part in listening fatigue for a lot of people. My personal opinion is if this is an issue for anyone, maybe they should try tone controls - the loss in SQ may be worth putting up with for a less tiring sound.
A "fatiguing" system is one that is non-optimum - a visit yesterday to a fellow 'conspirator', someone who is prepared to hack, or tweak, whatever is necessary to get the sound right, yet again demonstrated this. Hadn't visited him in some time - and immediate impression was that the sound was sort of OK, but not in the "zone". In other words, there was a volume that you didn't want to go above, because it started to give the impression that it would become unpleasant. A giveaway - a system working well just invites you, beckons you, to up and up the volume, you have the feeling that there no limits there.
So, what was wrong? He had done a whole lot of subtle mod's, and he said that at one stage the sound snapped together, it was 'right' - and then "owned up" that he had done some more fiddling - and the good SQ he had at that stage was lost, he didn't know why, he was at a loss to understand it.
Short story, we went over what he had done, and I noted that at one stage he added some damping material in an area of the electronic parts - it made 'sense' for him to do so, but my experiences suggested this was a wrong move. Removed it, and back came the good sound that he had had earlier ...
So, we went from a somewhat fatiguing system, to a far more musical one, one that could have the volume raised to quite realistic levels with complete comfort - by doing something that was quite "trivial", even bizarre to a lot of people.
Which means what? That ... it's dealing with some micro-level of detail in a system's make-up that can be so crucial to getting optimum, non-fatiguing playback ...
So, what was wrong? He had done a whole lot of subtle mod's, and he said that at one stage the sound snapped together, it was 'right' - and then "owned up" that he had done some more fiddling - and the good SQ he had at that stage was lost, he didn't know why, he was at a loss to understand it.
Short story, we went over what he had done, and I noted that at one stage he added some damping material in an area of the electronic parts - it made 'sense' for him to do so, but my experiences suggested this was a wrong move. Removed it, and back came the good sound that he had had earlier ...
So, we went from a somewhat fatiguing system, to a far more musical one, one that could have the volume raised to quite realistic levels with complete comfort - by doing something that was quite "trivial", even bizarre to a lot of people.
Which means what? That ... it's dealing with some micro-level of detail in a system's make-up that can be so crucial to getting optimum, non-fatiguing playback ...
Decline in the standard is the biggest issue with most common fair playback devices sold. What is seen today is a joke compared to what was sold for the same price >20 years ago.
I have several android devices that are used playback, good enough for most needs (tho not best by far) none have EQ/tone controls built in as a standard. I run PowerAmp on these as it has much more flexibility, EQ, Tone, stereo X pander, replaygain (that can be applied even on a track by track basis), etc and can enjoy my FLAC files on the go. Also have several apps for audio testing on these, Audio Tool, Active Pinger 2, NG (noise gen) and Waterfall Spectrum Analyzer. Cost was $20, value priceless.
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Where is this mythical crossover located?
Dampening material used, amount? Have a few thoughts on this subject
No crossovers were harmed in this exercise ...!Where is this mythical crossover located?
No, this is purely within the heart of the active components, earlier in the chain - specifically, a buffer for the digital source player.
But, I probably would agree with you, as regards damping the crossover bits. Rattling electricals is never going to be an answer for good sound, meaning crossovers should always be nicely isolated from vibrating air and carcases ...
Well, someone either hears these sorts of issues, or they don't. If they are 'invisible' to the listener then they are most likely better off, because then anything that's 'technically correct' will probably do a good enough job.
On the other hand, if the listener is someone who can pick whether the piano in action in the next room is just a recording playing, and not the real thing, then such 'fooling around' may be of value ...
On the other hand, if the listener is someone who can pick whether the piano in action in the next room is just a recording playing, and not the real thing, then such 'fooling around' may be of value ...
What I feel is needed (and as far as I know never done ideally) is a "benign" eq/filter that is in effect a *teeter totter* that tilts on a user selectable *axis* from 20 to 20k. I have never had nor heard of a plugin that did exactly that though some mastering solutions do come close. I feel I am in a "should have heard of this" position. I have often suspected and felt there is a need for exactly* this device. Perhaps it does or did exist in the old semi or passive analog tone controls.
This doesn't agree with my experience- you get more for less now, a lot more tech in a cheaper package. Now, if you didn't adjust for inflation that might explain the statement, but consider a CDP in 1995- a $150 CDP would have had junker everything, where a $150 pioneer nowadays is a pretty advanced device, with better performance in every aspect, and that's quite a lot less dough, once you factor in inflation.
Perhaps you're thinking of a specific market segment? "high end"? If your point is that build standards at higher pricepoints have fallen, that I won't argue- I haven't noticed that correlation, but in '95 I wasn't big into audio.
Electronics. Time equals improvement less money , manufacturers almost universally passed onto the consumer Speakers, a case could be made that advancements have only led to cheaper ways to make an acceptable product and in some, tangible regression, size being traded for bandwidth and higher distortion certainly inverse for electronics.
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I'm not thinking anything digital. Heh took me along time to buy a CD player even. When I did was some old basic Philips with a cast AL chassis, good solid linear power supply, the signal path was heavily modified, sound was passable. These mod'd out ran around $1100 in '88-89.
The flipside of that coin is true tho, what is available today is by far cheaper and better overall for the same dollar. Compare a Sony walkman cassette player to a cell phone with 64g of flacs.
I prefer quality integrated amps for their flexibility. Must have features always were 2 way dubbing, and pre in main out and the standard fair bass treble if not midrange and of course loudness. The old Sansui 717/727 were good. Power amps like Hafler 220 555 etc
Now if you really want to go back to the day of the super receivers... Look up the Technics SA-1000, what a beast of the day. 330watts per channel stereo. Rotel made some nice as did Pioneer, who topped the charts with the best tuner specs. Sansui TU7 and 9 tuners are still in demand as are old Marantz equipment when Saul was still at the helm.
We use kick back in bean bag chairs and use our feet as the remote, called it "toe control" lol Couldn't wait for kids to become "our" remote controls.... then they came out with everything remote control and spoiled the fun for an entire generation
And "magical thinking" takes many forms - there are people who believe in special metal boxes, which have very powerful, sacred words, emblazoned on their front. Phrases which bestow deep wisdom to their inner workings, such as "Hewlett Packard", and "Tektronix" - these when connected to humble pieces of audio equipment, by even the most ill-advised and careless of 'priests' bowing to this form of knowledge, will be assured of always having revealed all that is worth knowing about such - masters of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ...
Speaking of value for money, the digital source that the friend's using is a Cowon media player, yes, one of those tiny 200 bucks media players, a 'throwaway' ... He's given up on the heavily modified Quad CD player; A/B'ng, it's no contest - too much trouble trying to extract and maintain a higher standard of quality from the mechanical beast ...
What causes listening "fatigue"?
CRAP music !
Even when i was younger & my friends & i only had average gear to listen with, it didn't stop us Really enjoying those Classic tunes. If the radio played Crap ones it made us tune to another station, or turn it off or right down, until a better one came on. I still do the same today
CRAP music !
Even when i was younger & my friends & i only had average gear to listen with, it didn't stop us Really enjoying those Classic tunes. If the radio played Crap ones it made us tune to another station, or turn it off or right down, until a better one came on. I still do the same today
If you wanted the best spectrum analyzer you would get an HP. If you wanted the best O'scope that would be a Tektronix (I have one). If you wanted the best DMM you would buy a Fluke. I have an 867B GMM. It's about 16-17 years old now, is still in calibration and ran a slick grand. Had to replace an 87 that was stolen which was replaced by another 87 that was stolen. Prior to these had a 77 that my boss at LCG wanted when I upgraded to the 87 back in 90. Also had a good old Simpson fet input VM and various different accessories, like a 60kv probe, current transformers etc. Not much magic other than designed right from the ground up and built with real quality often to MIL spec. Need to replace my old standby soldering station after all these years, WTCP series Weller standard issue USAF fair. Purchased from Newark Electronics in 84 after my service was over. Will get a Hakko next, excellent quality and low low maintenance. Plus have like 30 tips for both the 470 series desoldering station and soldering tips for the other. Friend has a Hakko hot air station that comes in handy these days.
Truth is a big word to use, if the person making the measurements can think beyond a T.O. or text book we have some hope
Besides you really didn't want me around if you didn't know what you were doing. Had a terrible habit of tweaking the knobs when you weren't looking
There are an amazing number of malleable folk who read TAS and Stereophile.
The truly scary thing, the one thing that does not bode well for the future (yes all future) is this:
These satirical magazines are not viewed as comedy! Or as farce! or fiction! They are read and consumed as actual facts!
People believe lies, out and out lies!
What causes listening fatigue?
The Cannonade from the 2013 Overture.
Full percussive troop tanking to a town near you.
As lifelike as can be,
Such depth, Such air So much detail And Subsonics? my god Subsonics to die for,
The truly scary thing, the one thing that does not bode well for the future (yes all future) is this:
These satirical magazines are not viewed as comedy! Or as farce! or fiction! They are read and consumed as actual facts!
People believe lies, out and out lies!
What causes listening fatigue?
The Cannonade from the 2013 Overture.
Full percussive troop tanking to a town near you.
As lifelike as can be,
Such depth, Such air So much detail And Subsonics? my god Subsonics to die for,
Heh, crap is a 3.2w (MAX) /ch @20% distortion cassette player with only stop and FF connected to cheap cheap 6" fullrange speakers made out of hardboard from a friends Kmart blue light Christmas special and duct taped to the back seat. Cheap as in like it's claim to fame was it had a "tone control" ie treble cut (kill)... like that thing had any highs to begin with! Cheap as in like we goose neck taped the cable up and it laid on the bench seat of my buddies GREEN Maverick. Now that was fatigue, but we had fun none the less
Cheap as in like we goose neck taped the cable up and it laid on the bench seat of my buddies GREEN Maverick. Now that was fatigue, but we had fun none the less
If you wanted the best spectrum analyzer you would get an HP. If you wanted the best O'scope that would be a Tektronix (I have one). If you wanted the best DMM you would buy a Fluke.
Round here the Tektronics is a curseword. LeCroy DSO all the way, or better still an 80s Phillips analog scope. And I use a Voltec for harmonic analyses (but that is for power, and larger signal stuff and not a tailored spectrum analyser, it only does up to 99th harm, but would you need more? No idea myself!
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