Madmike2 said:
Suggest you post this question as a separate thread to the ESLs, Planars, etc... area?
You are sure to get many useful responses.
The general answer to your question is: it depends on polar response, but I'd certainly try top get the xover to work out between the two freqs you mentioned - and here depending on actual acoustic response in that region as well.
_-_-bear
Audiophilenoob said:
Would you consider a ML summit a good ESL that should outperform the wilson?
they weren't the same sound... not even close... I personally loved the wilson
also to talk about ribbons for a second... I actually disliked the Magnepan 20.1's sound very much...
sort of out of curiousity... what would you recommend for drivers in the creation of a Wilson Alexandria beater?
say budget is $6000....
Let me add to the whole discussion that in general the manufacturers of raw drivers are doing significantly better than they were 15 years ago in terms of reducing distortion and increasing power handling, etc... so just about everyone who makes a speaker today benefits from this.
The implication is that in the abstract it is now possible for any given manufacturer to produce a pretty darn "good" speaker - even if it is by accident or design. This includes the erstwhile Mr. Wilson.
And "Dave" has sold far more audio stuff than I ever have, and has made a huge amount more money at it than I ever have - so maybe I am all wrong about his speakers, and he is right. Could be. Seems plausible.
The ESL is generally not the same sound as is a dynamic speaker. They tend to be lower in distortion, which results in a different subjective impression. I said "tend". Ok? They also are distributed sound sources - again a different subjective impression. And ESLs are much more "sensitive" to the amplifier than are most dynamic speakers (not always though) due to the almost entirely capacitive load. Also ML's impedances tend to be lower than usual too. (I don't like their bass sections on "hybrid" speakers.) This does effect different amplifiers in different and somewhat unpredictable ways. So, ur ESL experience needs to be tempered in light of this... you might feel very differently given a more "sophisticated" or "synergistic" set up of an ESL.
As far as the Maggies - I haven't heard all of their models these days, but they are fairly easy to drive. But they do seem to be sensitive to the speaker cables used to a greater extent than I expected... again, much depends on the specific set up.
As far a Wilson's more recent models, at this point I don't know them by name. The last good audition I had of his stuff was in his big room a few years ago at a big show. Not bad, not impressive. If you want to "beat" or copy his work, look at the drivers and compare them to the drivers in other mfr's products and in the raw speaker catalogs. This will likely lead you to the same mfrs he is using. After that it is mostly box and xover.
As I said, I'd personally consider other ways of accomplishing pushing air about other than a "Wilson" style speaker.
Along these lines... there are two aspects to consider about any of these "high end" speakers. First is that I have rarely heard any of these speakers sound "good" in a showroom or at a show - no matter whose room it was in. Second, there is a large variation and range between "usual and average results" and "ultimate quality and/or design defects & issues".
About this second point. Having been around high-end for a while I have had the opportunity to go to a number of shows & showrooms around the country and also to go to a range of private homes to listen. This includes some "name recognition" people's rooms. My impression is that regardless of price most systems do not reach to the ultimate potential of a given speaker (for all sorts of reasons).
There are surprisingly "synergistic" set ups which seem to transcend all previous experience with the gear involved.
For example I have heard the Watt & Puppy (early model) sound pretty good (as compared to "Ick, get me out of here") in a particular showroom just because I swapped out the amp & cables. Of course, that's only my opinion and I might be nutty as a fruitcake!
Finally, everyone's personal hearing preferences seems to be quite different. Some systems that I find to be quite objectionable seem to please other people, and some systems that I find to be less than exciting are sometimes "perfect" for their owner.
So, like Count Basie said; "If it sounds good, it is good!"
_-_-bear
PS. my personal ideal is to be able to hear differences clearly in the recordings - no matter what the source - I feel this is indicative of the fewest "complementary colorations." It matters not at all how this is achieved or what gear is used as far as I am concerned.
Audiophilenoob said:
Just curious. Did the concert have speakers to broadcast the performers performance, or is it like in classical music where music comes directly from the instruments?
I ask this because if they used speakers at a conference, the album recording might be a totally different recording, and it's really difficult to capture the dynamics.
I once did a recording of live piano in a hotel, with the mics located at my ears, and I recorded lots more sounds than I noticed was there while I was listening live. So there is a tradeoff when doing liver recording.
bear said:
Suggest you post this question as a separate thread to the ESLs, Planars, etc... area?
You are sure to get many useful responses.
The general answer to your question is: it depends on polar response, but I'd certainly try top get the xover to work out between the two freqs you mentioned - and here depending on actual acoustic response in that region as well.
_-_-bear
Was there for days and got no traffic. No matter, i will just have to experiment.
Thank the gods this has not turned into a wilson love fest.
I wanted to mention that I was kicked out a a dispaly room at the Festival Du Son et Image in Montreal about 6 years ago, I was the first person to hear three days of set-up work involving the brand new prototype Classe Omega amps, Wilson x-whatevers, and about another $200k of 'stuff'.
The guy who set it up asked me my opinion.....
....and out of the the room I was pushed. Shown the door. Kicked in the butt. etc.
All I said was, "......
I wanted to mention that I was kicked out a a dispaly room at the Festival Du Son et Image in Montreal about 6 years ago, I was the first person to hear three days of set-up work involving the brand new prototype Classe Omega amps, Wilson x-whatevers, and about another $200k of 'stuff'.
The guy who set it up asked me my opinion.....
....and out of the the room I was pushed. Shown the door. Kicked in the butt. etc.
All I said was, "......
Yes, you've discovered one of the great truths of audio!
This is why you have getting conflicting advice to your questions from the beginning. Not because people are just trying to be annoying - well a lot of them were, but let's just drop that
The trick is to separate consistant advice that seems to be generally accepted, from individual preferences. Then figure out what your individual preferences are and give more weight to opinions of people that seem to have the same preferences.
Re: clones
Im currently building a watt/puppy clone. I would like to use the 27tdfc and the rs180 with 2 dual coil dayton subwoofers(Im not too concerned with the puppy part because I dont think it will get much use). I would appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks
Yes if you would be so kind. Thank Youplayazinc said:
Im currently building a watt/puppy clone. I would like to use the 27tdfc and the rs180 with 2 dual coil dayton subwoofers(Im not too concerned with the puppy part because I dont think it will get much use). I would appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks
Not yet, but I have been following this thread on HTGuide;
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11873&page=1
Instead of a tower, it would be in the Watt/Puppy style.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11873&page=1
Instead of a tower, it would be in the Watt/Puppy style.
Here is a shot of my unfinished quazi watt puppy clones. There is an alignment flaw on one of the cabinets that I was going to fix when finished but I just don't care right now.
This room is a home office and good speaker placement is not possible, still the sound is great. I did not attempt to make an exact clone because there were some things that I did not like about the watt/puppy. The stereo rack is also home made and because I liked the industrial look I never painted it. It is all assymetrically braced and all steel tubes are filled with plugs of lead shot fiberglass and silicone glue to reduce vibration.
These are the things I changed over Watt/Puppy design. THe bass module of watt/puppy moves air and is dynamic but too high a Q alignment for natural sound. I used only one nine inch driver since this room is small and get better transient and more natural bass.
Silk dome tweeter instead of titanium is better for a lot of less than stellar CD recording. THe WATT tweeters can be killers if the program material is not of near perfect virtue.
To save a little money I used a Audax carbon fiber cast frame midrange driver. THe natural timbre of this driver in the midrange is outstanding.
Cabinets weight about 150 pounds each. All walls 1.5 inch thick MDF except upper cabinet which has 2.25 thick front baffle. Cabinets are aperiodic loaded. This is somewhat less bass but gives outstanding transient response and endows the mid bass and midrange with glorious natural timbre quality.
Hezz
This room is a home office and good speaker placement is not possible, still the sound is great. I did not attempt to make an exact clone because there were some things that I did not like about the watt/puppy. The stereo rack is also home made and because I liked the industrial look I never painted it. It is all assymetrically braced and all steel tubes are filled with plugs of lead shot fiberglass and silicone glue to reduce vibration.
These are the things I changed over Watt/Puppy design. THe bass module of watt/puppy moves air and is dynamic but too high a Q alignment for natural sound. I used only one nine inch driver since this room is small and get better transient and more natural bass.
Silk dome tweeter instead of titanium is better for a lot of less than stellar CD recording. THe WATT tweeters can be killers if the program material is not of near perfect virtue.
To save a little money I used a Audax carbon fiber cast frame midrange driver. THe natural timbre of this driver in the midrange is outstanding.
Cabinets weight about 150 pounds each. All walls 1.5 inch thick MDF except upper cabinet which has 2.25 thick front baffle. Cabinets are aperiodic loaded. This is somewhat less bass but gives outstanding transient response and endows the mid bass and midrange with glorious natural timbre quality.
Hezz
Attachments
Konnichiwa,
There is no simple way to modify the crossover. You would have to use the same process I used all these years back. That was to work from information present in the public domain about the filter topology (there is non on the current WP's) and the published electrical impedance measurements of the speaker and the known driver parameters to derive values that would give a reasonable frequency response AND match the electrical impedance curve shape.
As you actually want to use completely different drivers even that will not really work.
Sayonara
minh_827 said:
There is no simple way to modify the crossover. You would have to use the same process I used all these years back. That was to work from information present in the public domain about the filter topology (there is non on the current WP's) and the published electrical impedance measurements of the speaker and the known driver parameters to derive values that would give a reasonable frequency response AND match the electrical impedance curve shape.
As you actually want to use completely different drivers even that will not really work.
Sayonara
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