Boy Jocko,
Don't get me started about ISO-9000. Talk about a bit of drivel implemented only to make protectionism look like a concern for quality. Only the joke got taken seriously and now has gone on to take over the world. How long until the corner gas station proudly proclaims they have ISO registration for the guy who fixes flat tires?
ISO is a total crock, at first people thought it meant you made a quality product. When all it really means is you have documented your processes and then you document how well you follow them. It's perfectly OK with the ISO auditors if you have crappy processes that turn out junk products.
European countries must have figured they were the best at dealing with meaningless business rituals and that American/Asian companies would take longer to catch on. If nothing else then at least fosting ISO onto the rest of the world means that non-European companies would waste time and resources getting ISO registration instead of designing new products.
This scheme worked for a while, but now that pretty much everyone has got registered it has become yet another meaningless activity (meaningless that is except to the ISO auditors bank accounts).
Phil
Don't get me started about ISO-9000. Talk about a bit of drivel implemented only to make protectionism look like a concern for quality. Only the joke got taken seriously and now has gone on to take over the world. How long until the corner gas station proudly proclaims they have ISO registration for the guy who fixes flat tires?
ISO is a total crock, at first people thought it meant you made a quality product. When all it really means is you have documented your processes and then you document how well you follow them. It's perfectly OK with the ISO auditors if you have crappy processes that turn out junk products.
European countries must have figured they were the best at dealing with meaningless business rituals and that American/Asian companies would take longer to catch on. If nothing else then at least fosting ISO onto the rest of the world means that non-European companies would waste time and resources getting ISO registration instead of designing new products.
This scheme worked for a while, but now that pretty much everyone has got registered it has become yet another meaningless activity (meaningless that is except to the ISO auditors bank accounts).
Phil
Every so many years, the con-artist business consultants conjure up some new stuff for our moron CEOs to get hoodwinked by. ISO900, TQM, Six-sigma, Deming, etc., are all the same crock.
There was an editorial in EDN (or was it Electronic Design?) when ISO got started. They calculated that if you made 1 million parts per year, and since a total of ten sample periods were necessary to get a statistically accurate read, that it would take 30 years to tell if you really were at 6-sigma.
Jocko
There was an editorial in EDN (or was it Electronic Design?) when ISO got started. They calculated that if you made 1 million parts per year, and since a total of ten sample periods were necessary to get a statistically accurate read, that it would take 30 years to tell if you really were at 6-sigma.
Jocko
Home of the free...
P.S. The computer ate my response on US protectionism which is good since it would have put me in the Sin Bin. The bottom line is don't forget who rebuilt much of Germany and Japan's infrastructure about 50 years ago after their efforts to make the world a much better place. I guess you never heard of trade deficits or looked around to see what kind of cars many Americans are driving. American Protectionism my ***! I guess we did protect you from getting to speak Russian though, when my USAF pilot father was stationed in Germany in the mid 50's
H.H.
Sorry for interfering but the second goal of the Marshall help was to create a marketplace in Europe for American products.
And rebuilding after launching the A-bomb in Hiroshima/ Nagasaki seems to me "etiquette". ( don't know the word in English ).
And recently you haven't read about the steel protectionism of the USA ? Failed nevertheless.
Yes, America protected us from speaking German ( and/or Russian ! ) but look at the situation now. People in Europe will never forget what America has done in WW2 but times have changed for the worse. America sees itself as the cop of the world, everybody should listen to them. "Either you are with us or you are against us" is the new slogan in the pathetic attempt to gather "friends" who would like to join the bombing of the people of Saddam. Some selfreflection on "God's own country" wouldn't hurt...
P.S. The computer ate my response on US protectionism which is good since it would have put me in the Sin Bin. The bottom line is don't forget who rebuilt much of Germany and Japan's infrastructure about 50 years ago after their efforts to make the world a much better place. I guess you never heard of trade deficits or looked around to see what kind of cars many Americans are driving. American Protectionism my ***! I guess we did protect you from getting to speak Russian though, when my USAF pilot father was stationed in Germany in the mid 50's
H.H.
Sorry for interfering but the second goal of the Marshall help was to create a marketplace in Europe for American products.
And rebuilding after launching the A-bomb in Hiroshima/ Nagasaki seems to me "etiquette". ( don't know the word in English ).
And recently you haven't read about the steel protectionism of the USA ? Failed nevertheless.
Yes, America protected us from speaking German ( and/or Russian ! ) but look at the situation now. People in Europe will never forget what America has done in WW2 but times have changed for the worse. America sees itself as the cop of the world, everybody should listen to them. "Either you are with us or you are against us" is the new slogan in the pathetic attempt to gather "friends" who would like to join the bombing of the people of Saddam. Some selfreflection on "God's own country" wouldn't hurt...
Stirring up......
As neither a European or an American, maybe I can offer an independant view on this discussion and get everyone mad at me...
First RF from Phones: I am not aware of any cordless phone that is sold in the U.S. that is actually made in the U.S. They all come from off-shore sources. That said, I would not imagine it is much different in Europe. I have several cordless phones which follow similar to the U.S. emissions standards. I have yet to ever notice any ill effect on any other piece of equipment that I own. In terms of RF emissions and susceptibility standards. I think the Europeans have gone overboard, as they have with most standards. The goal of the European standards seems to be to protect absolutely everyone from everything. The problem is, they have ignored the real social cost that this involves. The added cost of meeting these standards essentially becomes yet another un-needed tax. I have not found getting CE certification difficult, rediculous maybe, but not difficult.
Closing companies...... it is not difficult for me to count any number of companies in my country that have been bought by Europeans and Americans and subsequently closed. In the past I would have to say that American companies are more prone to this. Not protectionism, so much as a more free-wheeling capitalist attitude. As nurturing European companies have become more global, they are doing exactly the same thing.
On general protectionism.... in America, protectionism usually seems to stem from powerful lobbies and special interest groups... steel, wood, etc. American politics is heavily influenced by special interest groups and lobbies and if I was an American I would be concerned about this trend. However, I think the average American consumer is far more open to products from abroad then the average European. European protectionishm is also special interest oriented, but seems to take on a more "state sponsored feel". Their protectionism is based around industries that they feel are "culturally" significant though they never seem to admit it.... simple things like Wine, Cheese..... and they try to be more subtle about the protectionism. As opposed to the American style with maybe rediculous, but at least open and ultimately debatable tariffs, the Europeans create laws and regulations that effectively bar foreign products. They are more subtle, and being entrenched in law, much more difficult to change...... just try importing bubbly wine into France, or sweet wine into Germany.
On an area of protectionism that both Americans and Europeans should be ashamed is agriculture. Massive, massive subsidies for industries that perenially can not support themselves. One ultimate result of this is that developing nations, you know the ones where both Americans and Europeans are so quick to sell infrastructure, can not pay their bills because their only real export product, agriculture products, can not find a market in the U.S. or Europe because the commodity prices for agriculture are kept artificially low by massive subsidies. If you are saying, heh great!, I get cheap food, look at your income stub....
I was not even going to get onto the subject of war, etc., but since I have started, why not! Why would anyone even bring up WWII. It started over 60 years ago. The time for blame and retribution is well over. The only thing we need to be thinking about, is why it happened. I would guess that almost everyone on this forum, no matter what side our relatives fought on, lost someone. That brings us to today. To be honest, I am not sure where I stand on the issue of Iraq. On one hand, I certainly don't have a lot of faith in Bush. Let's face it, his track record before he was President was nothing to write home about. I don't think this is an internal political ploy, but I don't trust him to make the right decisions or to be able to weed through the good stuff and the BS all his aides and advisors are putting in front of him. On the other hand, if you can't see the parallel's between Saddam now and Hitler in the past, you probably have your head in the sand. The big difference is that at least until the start of the war, Hitler created prosperity for his people.
.... Hate to be off topic, but that is the way this thread went. All dissenting opinions are welcomed, and just remember, they are just that, opinions. We should all be happy that we are in a position to be able to publicly state our opinions in a forum such as that.
As neither a European or an American, maybe I can offer an independant view on this discussion and get everyone mad at me...
First RF from Phones: I am not aware of any cordless phone that is sold in the U.S. that is actually made in the U.S. They all come from off-shore sources. That said, I would not imagine it is much different in Europe. I have several cordless phones which follow similar to the U.S. emissions standards. I have yet to ever notice any ill effect on any other piece of equipment that I own. In terms of RF emissions and susceptibility standards. I think the Europeans have gone overboard, as they have with most standards. The goal of the European standards seems to be to protect absolutely everyone from everything. The problem is, they have ignored the real social cost that this involves. The added cost of meeting these standards essentially becomes yet another un-needed tax. I have not found getting CE certification difficult, rediculous maybe, but not difficult.
Closing companies...... it is not difficult for me to count any number of companies in my country that have been bought by Europeans and Americans and subsequently closed. In the past I would have to say that American companies are more prone to this. Not protectionism, so much as a more free-wheeling capitalist attitude. As nurturing European companies have become more global, they are doing exactly the same thing.
On general protectionism.... in America, protectionism usually seems to stem from powerful lobbies and special interest groups... steel, wood, etc. American politics is heavily influenced by special interest groups and lobbies and if I was an American I would be concerned about this trend. However, I think the average American consumer is far more open to products from abroad then the average European. European protectionishm is also special interest oriented, but seems to take on a more "state sponsored feel". Their protectionism is based around industries that they feel are "culturally" significant though they never seem to admit it.... simple things like Wine, Cheese..... and they try to be more subtle about the protectionism. As opposed to the American style with maybe rediculous, but at least open and ultimately debatable tariffs, the Europeans create laws and regulations that effectively bar foreign products. They are more subtle, and being entrenched in law, much more difficult to change...... just try importing bubbly wine into France, or sweet wine into Germany.
On an area of protectionism that both Americans and Europeans should be ashamed is agriculture. Massive, massive subsidies for industries that perenially can not support themselves. One ultimate result of this is that developing nations, you know the ones where both Americans and Europeans are so quick to sell infrastructure, can not pay their bills because their only real export product, agriculture products, can not find a market in the U.S. or Europe because the commodity prices for agriculture are kept artificially low by massive subsidies. If you are saying, heh great!, I get cheap food, look at your income stub....
I was not even going to get onto the subject of war, etc., but since I have started, why not! Why would anyone even bring up WWII. It started over 60 years ago. The time for blame and retribution is well over. The only thing we need to be thinking about, is why it happened. I would guess that almost everyone on this forum, no matter what side our relatives fought on, lost someone. That brings us to today. To be honest, I am not sure where I stand on the issue of Iraq. On one hand, I certainly don't have a lot of faith in Bush. Let's face it, his track record before he was President was nothing to write home about. I don't think this is an internal political ploy, but I don't trust him to make the right decisions or to be able to weed through the good stuff and the BS all his aides and advisors are putting in front of him. On the other hand, if you can't see the parallel's between Saddam now and Hitler in the past, you probably have your head in the sand. The big difference is that at least until the start of the war, Hitler created prosperity for his people.
.... Hate to be off topic, but that is the way this thread went. All dissenting opinions are welcomed, and just remember, they are just that, opinions. We should all be happy that we are in a position to be able to publicly state our opinions in a forum such as that.
Re: Speaking of US companies ruining stuff...
This has worried me a lot since I found out that they have
merged (as they call it). I am sure we will see a number of
op-amps being deleted in both catalogues due to similarity.
How long will there be op-amps actually stamped BB? Don't
know, not sure I want to know.
Jocko Homo said:
This has worried me a lot since I found out that they have
merged (as they call it). I am sure we will see a number of
op-amps being deleted in both catalogues due to similarity.
How long will there be op-amps actually stamped BB? Don't
know, not sure I want to know.
I must add that the cordless phones, like those in US 27 MHz(?) are forbidden to sell in Sweden and also forbidden to use even. In Sweden you must have permits to use radio frequencies otherwise the long arm of law will get you. We have rather small trouble with RF. Have you ever heard a swede complaining about RFinterference caused by transmitters? Many problems "over there" are RF problems because of "bad" equipment and too powerful transmitters. This bad equipment will be impossible to sell in Europe if they don't do anything about it.
The CE regulations is good in fighting RF polution. The Swedish computer ABC80 (1980) was a splendid example of a bad product. RF emission, YES! This computer would be today totally impossible to sell.
The CE regulations is good in fighting RF polution. The Swedish computer ABC80 (1980) was a splendid example of a bad product. RF emission, YES! This computer would be today totally impossible to sell.
They do pretty good volume on the OPAx34 line. The OPA2134 is less than a $1.00 in volume. The rise of high dollar home theater... $2K for Sony, Pioneer, etc. has generated a pretty big market for high end analog for audio and the margins are not too bad as the competition is pretty limited.
TI and Burr Brown have merged
They have already discontinued PCM63 ( for me still no 1 closely followed by the TDA5141 ) and the good opamps will probably follow since the revenue on audio-products may be too low.
Isn't that the reason why a good manefacturer of audio-worthy components like BB went down ?
Just presuming ...
They have already discontinued PCM63 ( for me still no 1 closely followed by the TDA5141 ) and the good opamps will probably follow since the revenue on audio-products may be too low.
Isn't that the reason why a good manefacturer of audio-worthy components like BB went down ?
Just presuming ...
While I generally agree that standards are necessary I have some general concerns:
1.) Consumers are often lead to thinking that ISO9000 certified companys are good and their products well manufactured. In the same way some people think some crappy item is good just because it has CE- or whatever approval.
2.) All these certifications can put small and fine companies out of business (or at least force them to give up some products) because they simply can't afford all the necessary tests (that have to be done by certified test labs in this case).
Regards
Charles
BTW, Regarding standards: Back then when I worked as an audio and video repair technician we used to make jokes about TV standards. Of course not about the German PAL system used in Switzerland, but about NTSC and SECAM:
NTSC: Never The Same Colour
SECAM:Système Exclusif Contre l' AMerique
1.) Consumers are often lead to thinking that ISO9000 certified companys are good and their products well manufactured. In the same way some people think some crappy item is good just because it has CE- or whatever approval.
2.) All these certifications can put small and fine companies out of business (or at least force them to give up some products) because they simply can't afford all the necessary tests (that have to be done by certified test labs in this case).
Regards
Charles
BTW, Regarding standards: Back then when I worked as an audio and video repair technician we used to make jokes about TV standards. Of course not about the German PAL system used in Switzerland, but about NTSC and SECAM:
NTSC: Never The Same Colour
SECAM:Système Exclusif Contre l' AMerique
I cannot resist quouting one of my favourites about standards
(from a 20-year old or so book on computer networks by
Tannenbaum)
"The best thing about standards is that there are so many to
choose from. Furthermore, if don't like any of them, just wait
for next years model to come out."
To the point in a lot of cases, both then and now, though not
so applicable to enforcing standards like CE.
(from a 20-year old or so book on computer networks by
Tannenbaum)
"The best thing about standards is that there are so many to
choose from. Furthermore, if don't like any of them, just wait
for next years model to come out."
To the point in a lot of cases, both then and now, though not
so applicable to enforcing standards like CE.
Has anyone noticed that the Digi-key catalog used to say "Burr-Brown, by Texas Instruments", but that it is all lumped into the TI section? Making it hard to find......
Just like Rockwell did with Collins Radio, the logo will go sometime soon. And I fear in the long run, most everything but the INAs will disappear.
I bet if I open my window, and listen very carefully, I can hear some mucky-muck saying:
"OPA604? What the heck is so special about an op-amp for audio. They can use a TL071 like everyone else and learn to love it."
Jocko
Just like Rockwell did with Collins Radio, the logo will go sometime soon. And I fear in the long run, most everything but the INAs will disappear.
I bet if I open my window, and listen very carefully, I can hear some mucky-muck saying:
"OPA604? What the heck is so special about an op-amp for audio. They can use a TL071 like everyone else and learn to love it."
Jocko
Err, and I think the WTO (who might know) doesn't think that the USA is exactly the angel of competitive practices, having just found in the EU's favour, which is going to lead to a $4bn fine, apparently.
Tried looking it up on the WTO, and guess who has the most references against its name ... yep good old Bush country...
Tried looking it up on the WTO, and guess who has the most references against its name ... yep good old Bush country...
Re: They call me Mr. TI-BBs
[picture in original post omitted]
Is that the new president of TI/BB?? In that case there might
be hope. He definitely looks brown to me and if he let his hair
grow a bit it could be referred to as "BURRigt" in swedish. I
think this is actually mr Burr&Brown himself.
artnyos said:What is mucky-muck
[picture in original post omitted]
Is that the new president of TI/BB?? In that case there might
be hope. He definitely looks brown to me and if he let his hair
grow a bit it could be referred to as "BURRigt" in swedish. I
think this is actually mr Burr&Brown himself.
Jocko, you owe us the ISO 9000 rant!
All,
i wrote this post yesterday, before the thread developed further. I decided to sleep a night over it as mere mentioning anything concerning the IIIrd Reich seems to be strictly forbidden for Germans. But as i see that many non-Germans harbour similar opinions, methinks, heck, why not post it. So here it goes, revised, combed and perfumed.
Harry,
re: history:
sheer luck that i am from Munich and not from Dresden. Otherwise i would speak Russian as fluent as i speak English.
I wonder why you have such a selective perception of facts. USA threw 2 nuke bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima *after* having received the declaration of unconditional surrender from the Japanese Army; i am not sure if the Japanese Tenno declared surrender officially already. Then USA helped to rebuild Japan. I am quite sure of the fact as our history teacher back in school made the mistake to show us something looking damned like evidence and then was terribly cornered in explaining how this and America's claim to save the world could possibly fit together. For the record, Hitler's IIIrd Reich started WW II and was responsible of a lot of unspeakable things; any word too weak to describe it. And TMK, the Germans invented bombing civilians, London and Coventry. After having said this, bombing civilians was developed to ultimate perfection and persistence by the British assisted by the Americans. And after 1947, USA helped rebuild Germany.
Just to give an image a lil'bit more complete. "Who hath no guilt may throw the 1st stone" (Holy Bible, but dont' ask me the verse #)
If we permit us to talk about historic guilt, we soon are debating about the historic guilt of Germans, Japanese, Spaniards, Dutch, British, Chinese, Russians, US-Americans, South-Africans, Indian Indians and recently Israelis. Oh, and i forgot Palestineans, i do not want to appear partial. This list is incomplete and i chose in random order.
I refuse to put a price tag on any of those genocides or other law-of-nations violation; the list does not look like committing such is limited to one nation only. If we continue this sort of "
:you are more guilty --- :no! you are!!" accounting, we do not move on. We remain stuck in the past. If we stop accounting, we can move on and shape our common future. The world is becoming too small for struggles between nations.
I am quite interested in history. I try to learn from it. But what makes me frown is the refusal of our politicians from doing so.
Just recently our German chancellor and his stupid secretary of justice did a few inexcusably stupid things, messing up the German-US relation quite throroughly. I can understand Americans feeling hurt in their national pride (BTW, national pride also does not exist in Germany, due to permanent brainwash).
But, should we, all intelligent people, all citizens of our one world, jump at each other because our "democratically elected" leaders prefer to be sore at each other?
re: Cars.
Could that be that German cars have properties the American cars have not?
Over here, American cars are cheap. Nevertheless almost noone buys them. And this has nothing to do with chauvinism, chauvinism is unknown here, due to 55ys of permanent brainwash.
If ihave to give my personal impression on American cars, they feel as if you drive a wet sponge. No European car's suspension and steering feels that mushy. Send us a few US car designers, we show them how to make a proper suspension and steering mechanism, even Europaen powersteering feels as direct as expected in a sports car.
Exception: a Chevy Corvette is quite impressing and so is a Dodge Viper (the latter i only know form hearsay). Nevertheless i would prefer any 911 Porsche. More fun, road response almost as direct as my race bicycle, just a teenyweeny bit more power
But let me tell you, apart from Porsche, build quality of German cars leaves huge room for wishes and the American way to do business has a lot to do with it.
re: electronic fistwedges and other US products.
I buy only American electronic fistwedges, HP 48 to be specific. And i love my US american HP 'scope. (meanwhile i refuse to buy any other product from that HP company; Agilent may be another thing, but out of my financial reach; the American way to do business has a lot to do with it). And i buy heaps of Jazz records from USA, original pressings. US musicians. Oh and just today i bought a lil' pulse generator, model 100A, made by Systron-Donner/Datapulse, California. Outside looking crappy, inside looking utterly neat and HiQ like HP in their best days, just the right thing to harrass amplifiers on the bench, test stability.
It all has to do with the central topic of Robert M.Pirsig's "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenace": quality.
All,
i wrote this post yesterday, before the thread developed further. I decided to sleep a night over it as mere mentioning anything concerning the IIIrd Reich seems to be strictly forbidden for Germans. But as i see that many non-Germans harbour similar opinions, methinks, heck, why not post it. So here it goes, revised, combed and perfumed.
Harry,
i was not talking historically, i was talking about todays protectionism. It is a fact that the US government has protection taxes on commercial goods in order to make US products competitive. Such taxes are considered by the EC too ,as response to the US ones, but are not yet there, TMK, but i may be wrong with that.HarryHaller said:
re: history:
sheer luck that i am from Munich and not from Dresden. Otherwise i would speak Russian as fluent as i speak English.
I wonder why you have such a selective perception of facts. USA threw 2 nuke bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima *after* having received the declaration of unconditional surrender from the Japanese Army; i am not sure if the Japanese Tenno declared surrender officially already. Then USA helped to rebuild Japan. I am quite sure of the fact as our history teacher back in school made the mistake to show us something looking damned like evidence and then was terribly cornered in explaining how this and America's claim to save the world could possibly fit together. For the record, Hitler's IIIrd Reich started WW II and was responsible of a lot of unspeakable things; any word too weak to describe it. And TMK, the Germans invented bombing civilians, London and Coventry. After having said this, bombing civilians was developed to ultimate perfection and persistence by the British assisted by the Americans. And after 1947, USA helped rebuild Germany.
Just to give an image a lil'bit more complete. "Who hath no guilt may throw the 1st stone" (Holy Bible, but dont' ask me the verse #)
If we permit us to talk about historic guilt, we soon are debating about the historic guilt of Germans, Japanese, Spaniards, Dutch, British, Chinese, Russians, US-Americans, South-Africans, Indian Indians and recently Israelis. Oh, and i forgot Palestineans, i do not want to appear partial. This list is incomplete and i chose in random order.
I refuse to put a price tag on any of those genocides or other law-of-nations violation; the list does not look like committing such is limited to one nation only. If we continue this sort of "
:you are more guilty --- :no! you are!!" accounting, we do not move on. We remain stuck in the past. If we stop accounting, we can move on and shape our common future. The world is becoming too small for struggles between nations.I am quite interested in history. I try to learn from it. But what makes me frown is the refusal of our politicians from doing so.
Just recently our German chancellor and his stupid secretary of justice did a few inexcusably stupid things, messing up the German-US relation quite throroughly. I can understand Americans feeling hurt in their national pride (BTW, national pride also does not exist in Germany, due to permanent brainwash).
But, should we, all intelligent people, all citizens of our one world, jump at each other because our "democratically elected" leaders prefer to be sore at each other?
re: Cars.
Could that be that German cars have properties the American cars have not?
Over here, American cars are cheap. Nevertheless almost noone buys them. And this has nothing to do with chauvinism, chauvinism is unknown here, due to 55ys of permanent brainwash.
If ihave to give my personal impression on American cars, they feel as if you drive a wet sponge. No European car's suspension and steering feels that mushy. Send us a few US car designers, we show them how to make a proper suspension and steering mechanism, even Europaen powersteering feels as direct as expected in a sports car.
Exception: a Chevy Corvette is quite impressing and so is a Dodge Viper (the latter i only know form hearsay). Nevertheless i would prefer any 911 Porsche. More fun, road response almost as direct as my race bicycle, just a teenyweeny bit more power
But let me tell you, apart from Porsche, build quality of German cars leaves huge room for wishes and the American way to do business has a lot to do with it.
re: electronic fistwedges and other US products.
I buy only American electronic fistwedges, HP 48 to be specific. And i love my US american HP 'scope. (meanwhile i refuse to buy any other product from that HP company; Agilent may be another thing, but out of my financial reach; the American way to do business has a lot to do with it). And i buy heaps of Jazz records from USA, original pressings. US musicians. Oh and just today i bought a lil' pulse generator, model 100A, made by Systron-Donner/Datapulse, California. Outside looking crappy, inside looking utterly neat and HiQ like HP in their best days, just the right thing to harrass amplifiers on the bench, test stability.
It all has to do with the central topic of Robert M.Pirsig's "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenace": quality.
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