Ha! Those Arias look lovely. Want some, want some!
Adason, you make some excellent suggestions (I like the Dvorak one in particular -one of Linkwitz finest moments IMO), and nobody is arguing the merit of them. What we took exception to was the apparantly sweeping statement:
'...I would no bother with blh
not enough deep bass anyway'
As you did not make any exceptions to this remark in said post, the fairly natural interpretation was that you were stating that horns of any kind cannot do bass, period. While I now appreciate this was not your intention, it wasn't actually very clear, which is why Ron and I wished to point out generally that a) horns in general are just as capable of generating LF as any other enclosure type, and b) FR hybrid horns can actually do pretty well -30Hz is easy enough from 6 1/2in - 8in units (though naturally due to the dynamic limitations of an FR driver they'll never be able to match a dedicated LF system. Not bad though, as I'm sure you'll agree).
The Kleinhorn is a wonderful thing -a full-blown, proper horn with minimal compromises to horn action. That was Nelson's objective. Many (relatively) compact domestic horn designs can actually go equally low, or lower, but they are all hybrids -QWRs in the LF shifting to horn loading higher up. They're still classed as horns though. Ron's Austin is a great example: flat to 40hz in-room from a compact box, and Austin uses more horn action than most hybrid designs. Not bad for FR drivers.
Adason, you make some excellent suggestions (I like the Dvorak one in particular -one of Linkwitz finest moments IMO), and nobody is arguing the merit of them. What we took exception to was the apparantly sweeping statement:
'...I would no bother with blh
not enough deep bass anyway'
As you did not make any exceptions to this remark in said post, the fairly natural interpretation was that you were stating that horns of any kind cannot do bass, period. While I now appreciate this was not your intention, it wasn't actually very clear, which is why Ron and I wished to point out generally that a) horns in general are just as capable of generating LF as any other enclosure type, and b) FR hybrid horns can actually do pretty well -30Hz is easy enough from 6 1/2in - 8in units (though naturally due to the dynamic limitations of an FR driver they'll never be able to match a dedicated LF system. Not bad though, as I'm sure you'll agree).
The Kleinhorn is a wonderful thing -a full-blown, proper horn with minimal compromises to horn action. That was Nelson's objective. Many (relatively) compact domestic horn designs can actually go equally low, or lower, but they are all hybrids -QWRs in the LF shifting to horn loading higher up. They're still classed as horns though. Ron's Austin is a great example: flat to 40hz in-room from a compact box, and Austin uses more horn action than most hybrid designs. Not bad for FR drivers.
SAF is a variable thing... certainly compromises have to be made.
Some spouses might not mind a 6' tall tower that is very thin and narrow.Possibly also not have a place to hide a sub. The BIB would be good for that- they CAN produce good bass, unlike the kleinhorn, they use corner loading to achieve this. Not 20hz, but few setups are, in fact...
Others might find anything 6' tall unacceptable! The classic solution to this situation is mini monitors with a sub. If the sub can be out of the way a good solution that can go low. Of course if it crosses over too high, you will need 2 subs to avoid being able to locate the bass source, and that might be too big..
If the sub is a problem, a small tower that does some bass, like the Aria might be the ticket. Nice compromise. Not intrusive.
Finallly, open baffle with a sub would work for a spouse who doesn't mind that they are a bit wider than other designs, but appreciate that they can look a lot lighter from the side. This certainly has the potential for wide range hifi.
Any discussion that insists that one approach will please all spouses
is one that will create a design that please only a small percentage..
Some spouses might not mind a 6' tall tower that is very thin and narrow.Possibly also not have a place to hide a sub. The BIB would be good for that- they CAN produce good bass, unlike the kleinhorn, they use corner loading to achieve this. Not 20hz, but few setups are, in fact...
Others might find anything 6' tall unacceptable! The classic solution to this situation is mini monitors with a sub. If the sub can be out of the way a good solution that can go low. Of course if it crosses over too high, you will need 2 subs to avoid being able to locate the bass source, and that might be too big..
If the sub is a problem, a small tower that does some bass, like the Aria might be the ticket. Nice compromise. Not intrusive.
Finallly, open baffle with a sub would work for a spouse who doesn't mind that they are a bit wider than other designs, but appreciate that they can look a lot lighter from the side. This certainly has the potential for wide range hifi.
Any discussion that insists that one approach will please all spouses
is one that will create a design that please only a small percentage..
No arguments from me on that score. SteveS has a pair of wide corner horns, but his other half quite liked my double horn prototypes, which were about half as tall again and the same depth, but a fair bit slimmer. Another aquaintence loved Terry Cain's Single BENs, but loathed a pair of mini-monitors. Yet another prefered mini-monitors over a pair of MLTLs. YMMV.
WAF...
Nelson posted this pic awhile back and I thought you might enjoy seeing it if you didn't before.
Pretty much solves the WAF problem I would think; not to mention lack of bottom end...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=969257&highlight=#post969257
Enjoy!
Nelson posted this pic awhile back and I thought you might enjoy seeing it if you didn't before.
Pretty much solves the WAF problem I would think; not to mention lack of bottom end...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=969257&highlight=#post969257
Enjoy!
It would be nice to be able to let loose and design a 3-4 way full horn system......but who would build it?
I attempt to get the most from a single FR driver and try to accomplish it without subs. I dont listen to organ music and find that the mid to lower 40s is sufficent for the majority of music.
Hay i am a big fan of Altec Vott, but i live in an apt and have to be considerate of neighbors.
I am also a big fan of the larger Mcintosh systems and designed and built multi way systems for over 30 years. However i find the total musicality of the single point FR driver in a BLH/FLH very easy to live with and less complicated in the electrical compensation which always sounded to me to have an influence on the overall sound that was not a positive aspect. I have akways found that a mechanical approach to acoustic problems worked better than an electrical aproach.
Give me a HE BLH/FLH with a clean lower wattage amp with a monster P/S and a good source with as few components between the source and the driver.
I also like OBs but the room interactions and the need for larger rooms and the lack of LF response just does not make it practical for an average apartment. So i design around simple( well, simple to me) and efficent and livable.
ron
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/lowtherpm2a_e.html
I attempt to get the most from a single FR driver and try to accomplish it without subs. I dont listen to organ music and find that the mid to lower 40s is sufficent for the majority of music.
Hay i am a big fan of Altec Vott, but i live in an apt and have to be considerate of neighbors.
I am also a big fan of the larger Mcintosh systems and designed and built multi way systems for over 30 years. However i find the total musicality of the single point FR driver in a BLH/FLH very easy to live with and less complicated in the electrical compensation which always sounded to me to have an influence on the overall sound that was not a positive aspect. I have akways found that a mechanical approach to acoustic problems worked better than an electrical aproach.
Give me a HE BLH/FLH with a clean lower wattage amp with a monster P/S and a good source with as few components between the source and the driver.
I also like OBs but the room interactions and the need for larger rooms and the lack of LF response just does not make it practical for an average apartment. So i design around simple( well, simple to me) and efficent and livable.
ron
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/lowtherpm2a_e.html
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