Eva said:
Not sure about the tanks. Apparently the national guardsmen were sent in until pretty late and they arrived in trucks, not tanks from TV footage I have seen. There was a picture of APCs (which to untrained eyes could be mistaken as tanks) of the state police early on.
I think you ought to be prepared for 'mistaken' identity. Sometimes eyewitness news isn't always the most accurate.
Eva said:
There is absolutely very little coordination and your critism of the governments' response, at the city, state and federal levels, is accurate and well taken.
Eva said:
That's way to generalization. There are quite a few legal constraints on what the government can do - for that today's Washington Post has a good article for you to read.
Eva said:
I am not sure if a public health care system is a good solution: I for one would not live in a socialist society like those in Europe. But that's just me.
Eva said:
You may want to double check on your figures. But even beofre that, you may want to think how comparable the two hurricanes are: is the part of Cuba hit by Dennis as densely populated? Was Dennis as strong when it hit Cuba? could it be that it has weakened to something less than a Cat4 hurricane? Are the parts of Cuba hit by Dennis also under the sea level? ...
those are questions any intelligent person would ask and try to acertain before comparing the two.
Eva said:
From a certain point of view, a highly centralized government (or a dictatorship) has its advantages and this is clearly one of them. However, the people of the United States have decided that they don't like that. I think the rest of the world will just have to live with that.
Eva said:
I think it would be very silly for the Bush government not to accept that.
Eva said:
People revise their decisions all the time. I would rather my government reversing its wrong decisions in order to save lives. Wouldn't you?
I think it is always helpful to have an open mind and not being overtaken by the media. You will get a better picture of things if you read more.
What is very very troubling is that after 911, we have spent billions on establishing the homeland security department to prepare us for things like this, and worse: we have days to prepare for katrina and apparently we were not as well prepared as we were under the old system, at all levels:
the city did nothing to prepare its citizens: never issued a mandatory evacuation orders; provided its citizens with no access to mass transportation; and lost control of its law enforcement infrastructure, etc.
The state never declared a state of emergency, and never rushed its nation guards troops into the area to provide food, water and lawness.
The federal goverment, well, enough said.
The point is that had we had a terrorist attack which would have left us with no time to prepare, how well would have we fared? It begs a lot of questions about how good a job the homeland security department has done.
When the crisis is over, there should be a thorough investigation on what went wrong, how we can do better and assignment accountability for the lives that needlessly lost in the gulf coast.
the city did nothing to prepare its citizens: never issued a mandatory evacuation orders; provided its citizens with no access to mass transportation; and lost control of its law enforcement infrastructure, etc.
The state never declared a state of emergency, and never rushed its nation guards troops into the area to provide food, water and lawness.
The federal goverment, well, enough said.
The point is that had we had a terrorist attack which would have left us with no time to prepare, how well would have we fared? It begs a lot of questions about how good a job the homeland security department has done.
When the crisis is over, there should be a thorough investigation on what went wrong, how we can do better and assignment accountability for the lives that needlessly lost in the gulf coast.
tlf9999:
Dennis in Cuba was obviously a bit easier to handle, however this doesn't mean that any minor lack of organization from the government couldn't had still resulted in hundreds of deaths.
But things actually aren't easier. Remember that Cuba suffers a tremendous lack of resources and is drowning in poverty because of those embargo laws of yours that state that USA may act aganinst the interests, employees, etc.. of any government, company or individual involved in trading goods with Cuba. With these laws very little countries and companies dare to trade and they do it at unfair prices.
Dennis in Cuba was obviously a bit easier to handle, however this doesn't mean that any minor lack of organization from the government couldn't had still resulted in hundreds of deaths.
But things actually aren't easier. Remember that Cuba suffers a tremendous lack of resources and is drowning in poverty because of those embargo laws of yours that state that USA may act aganinst the interests, employees, etc.. of any government, company or individual involved in trading goods with Cuba. With these laws very little countries and companies dare to trade and they do it at unfair prices.
Eva said:
My point was for you to check on your facts: Dennis weakened to a Cat 1 hurricane as it moved in land, and that is considerably easier to handle than a cat 4 that hit a populated city under the sea level.
That's just one data point.
Eva said:
Unfortunately, that's pretty much what happens around the global: the haves will always have better means than the havenots. Think about those poor souls died in the 4th Paris apartment fire yesterday. and ask yourself when was the last time someone / anyone from the royal family of the UK had died from a fire.
Until and unless we have access to unlimited resources, people who can afford it will fare better than people who cannot afford it. It is cruel, but it is the reality also.
These three fires in Paris were probably intentional since there were a whole lot of immigrants living in at least two of the buildings. Note that here there is more racism than ever since Madrid and London attacks.
For example: Last week a skinhead driver wearing a gun killed an immigrant in Spain, the skinhead dind't stop at a traffic light, the ill fated immigrant was trying to cross the street and complained... he was shot several times. That kind of people have definitely lost their sanity (if they ever had any).
I don't think there is much that could be done about that. In Spain these immigrants have the right to receive free healthcare, even the ones that don't have permission to stay here.
For example: Last week a skinhead driver wearing a gun killed an immigrant in Spain, the skinhead dind't stop at a traffic light, the ill fated immigrant was trying to cross the street and complained... he was shot several times. That kind of people have definitely lost their sanity (if they ever had any).
I don't think there is much that could be done about that. In Spain these immigrants have the right to receive free healthcare, even the ones that don't have permission to stay here.
Maybe that skinhead finally broke down and snaped because he was getting tired of paying for those services to people who aren't supposed to be there in the first place and would give harbor to those that put bombs on busses and trains. That kind of stuff may start happening here too.
Most Americans aren't quite as pacified as those across the pond.
Although I wouldn't take the actions of a skinhead as the model for a sane individual either.
Most Americans aren't quite as pacified as those across the pond. Although I wouldn't take the actions of a skinhead as the model for a sane individual either.
Eva said:
And a lot of thos poor in NO stayed behind intentionally until they got a taste of what the hurricane is. Does that neglect any critism on the governments' slow reaction? No.
Does the intentional "suicide", if it is indeed a suicide that was 4th in a few weeks, neglect any ciritism of the governments in France? No.
Had those immigrants had the same jobs, houses, cars, social status, etc. as the riches and most respected French, would they also commit "suicide" in mass?
Eva said:
Had the immigrant had a large LandRover, a few bodyguards, or a rifle of his own, aka like those in Spain who have the best resources, would he still be killed by that skinhead? would he have a chance to at least defend himself in that attack?
Eva said:
It is not just sanity, it is also a question of class, unless we can afford all of citizens with unlimited resources.
Eva said:
You can at least educate your citizens to be civil, and human to other human beings.
Eva said:
1st of all, why do they need permissions to stay in Spain at all? Why cannot Spain open its doors to all immigrants? How many immigrants does Spain take in? Before you answer, the US takes in about 1 million legal immigrants.
2ndly, what other social services does Spain afford its immigrants? how about education? how about work permits? how about having your governments speaking their native tones? how about ways to bring them into the mainstream society? how about adopting your own life styles to accormodate the immigrants?
Think about it.
tlf9999 said:
This morning our news say that Bush government has just rejected medical help from Cuba. Figure yourself what kind of jerks you have in your government...
CBS240 said:Maybe that skinhead finally broke down and snaped because he was getting tired of paying for those services to people who aren't supposed to be there in the first place and would give harbor to those that put bombs on busses and trains. That kind of stuff may start happening here too.
Although I wouldn't take the actions of a skinhead as the model for a sane individual either.
It's a widely known fact that the people that put the bombs in Madrid and London were well estabilished citizens who had good jobs or even their own business and paid all their taxes. On the other hand, the immigrants that get killed are almost always those that have just arrived and have nothing.
Note that the main reason for immigrants to come here is that there are a lot of companies and busines willing to employ them unlawfully, with lower wages than stated by law and without paying any taxes. Our own people are the ones to blame for that. Remember than an immigrant without a job is just not going to survive for long. On the other hand, those skinheads are usually aggressive and clumsy people that have a lot of trouble finding a suitable job, a lot of them are unemployed I think.
On a desperate attempt to avoid that, our government is granting residence permission to any immigrant who whishes to lawsuit his unlawful employer.
Things doesn't work that way here. Our streets are not expected to be battle fields where the stronger one dictates the rules nor where you have to defend yourself from anything, and nobody is supposed to use firearms to kill or intimidate other people either. This is a different society.
I've got no big car (no car at all) and no firearms. I use to walk and cycle a lot and nobody should regard me as inferior or shot me for that.
Eva said:
To me, that is a serious indication of a class-based society when people got killed tend to be those with nothing.
Eva said:
I thought your description of how the poor immigrant died is a direct contradiction to what you wrote above.
Maybe your expectation is valid. But from what you said earlier, it is certainly NOT what's going on in the real life there.
But that's beside the point. I was trying to show you that it is silly to link the unfortunate death of the poor with a classed society.
I certainly wouldn't call Spain a classed society just because the deat of that immigrant. That, however, doesn't mean that somepeople in Spain don't have better access to more resources than others, and having better access to resources will not help them survive.
Forgot about this in my last response to you.
it is certainly silly from my point of view for our government NOT to accept the help from Cuba at time of crisis.
However, people have different information and different perspective. Just because their decisions are different from mind doesn't mean they are irrationale or stupid. and it certainly doesn't give any of us the right to call them jerks.
Eva said:
it is certainly silly from my point of view for our government NOT to accept the help from Cuba at time of crisis.
However, people have different information and different perspective. Just because their decisions are different from mind doesn't mean they are irrationale or stupid. and it certainly doesn't give any of us the right to call them jerks.
It seems a point is being missed here. The displaced and neglected in NO were not immigrants or 'illegals' but CBS240's and tlf9999's fellow Americans. Any system of goverment that allows so many of its own citizens fall by the wayside is seroiusly flawed. And what is one to make of large numbers of, mostly white,policemen standing guard over showroom dummies while a few hundred yards away the, mostly black, population is left to rot.
the discussion with EVA is perfectly valid in the sense that we need to make conclusions on facts, not our perception of facts, especially when those "perceptions" turn out to be surprisingly wrong.
It doesn't matter if those dying and suffering are immigrants, illegals or US citizens: immigrants and illegals are just as human as my neighbors next door and they need to be rescued just as much. Any person suggesting that immigrants or illegals are 2nd class citizens or we shouldn't be as concerned about their fate, in my view, don't deserve to be treated like humans themselves and are just as barbaric as animals.
Clearly the governments failed on its mission to protect the people they are supposed to protect. No question about that.
The difference between a good and a bad government is that the good ones can objectively assess its mistakes and take corrective actions so that similar situations like this will be handled better.
If you knew the timeline of this event, you would have known that one of the key reasons that we had rioting and looting right in front of the police is that the police were focused on rescuing lives - a right decision in my mind.
Most of the looting was for electronics, luxury goods, and guns, which would have no use in a flooded city without electricity and starved to death. I have no sympathy for this and I think martial laws should have been declared on the city from day 1 and anyone looting, raping, carjacking or otherwise carring a gun unauthorized should be shot on sight - we need to maintain lawness for the rescue missions to be effectively carried out - which the NO police department was effectively doing later on as those four dead gunmen yesterday could testify.
But to your comments about racism. A racism-free society is there race does not factor into one's decision making. not one where a white police offier is affraid of enforcing laws on a black, or vice versa.
From what I heard about NO, the suggestion of racism is largest not shared by the people of NO. I think the fact that most of the left behind are black is more or less a 'class' issue (or more precisely one's economic status and consequently access to resources). The city, the state and to a less degree the federal government provided no resources to those needy to get out of the town before the hurricane hit. so what is left behind are largely people who are poor and who couldn't get out on their own.
BTW, I will let you figure out the skin color of the police chief in NO, and his predecessors' as well.
rfbrw said:
It doesn't matter if those dying and suffering are immigrants, illegals or US citizens: immigrants and illegals are just as human as my neighbors next door and they need to be rescued just as much. Any person suggesting that immigrants or illegals are 2nd class citizens or we shouldn't be as concerned about their fate, in my view, don't deserve to be treated like humans themselves and are just as barbaric as animals.
rfbrw said:
Clearly the governments failed on its mission to protect the people they are supposed to protect. No question about that.
The difference between a good and a bad government is that the good ones can objectively assess its mistakes and take corrective actions so that similar situations like this will be handled better.
rfbrw said:
If you knew the timeline of this event, you would have known that one of the key reasons that we had rioting and looting right in front of the police is that the police were focused on rescuing lives - a right decision in my mind.
Most of the looting was for electronics, luxury goods, and guns, which would have no use in a flooded city without electricity and starved to death. I have no sympathy for this and I think martial laws should have been declared on the city from day 1 and anyone looting, raping, carjacking or otherwise carring a gun unauthorized should be shot on sight - we need to maintain lawness for the rescue missions to be effectively carried out - which the NO police department was effectively doing later on as those four dead gunmen yesterday could testify.
But to your comments about racism. A racism-free society is there race does not factor into one's decision making. not one where a white police offier is affraid of enforcing laws on a black, or vice versa.
From what I heard about NO, the suggestion of racism is largest not shared by the people of NO. I think the fact that most of the left behind are black is more or less a 'class' issue (or more precisely one's economic status and consequently access to resources). The city, the state and to a less degree the federal government provided no resources to those needy to get out of the town before the hurricane hit. so what is left behind are largely people who are poor and who couldn't get out on their own.
BTW, I will let you figure out the skin color of the police chief in NO, and his predecessors' as well.
I strongly recommend to read that link:
http://www.iraqtimeline.com/
It deals with the subject of the incompetence and arrogance of Bush government and it also shows the level of censorship and manipulation that is routinely applied to some USA media. News reporters from UK, Germany and other countries that have visited New Orleans are denouncing these 'staging' practices.
But this is not a government only issue, the entire system is failing. What is happening is just the culmination of decades following the wrong philosophy and washing the brain of each citizen, fooling them into believing that a certain system benefits them when it actually doesn't at all.
http://www.iraqtimeline.com/
It deals with the subject of the incompetence and arrogance of Bush government and it also shows the level of censorship and manipulation that is routinely applied to some USA media. News reporters from UK, Germany and other countries that have visited New Orleans are denouncing these 'staging' practices.
But this is not a government only issue, the entire system is failing. What is happening is just the culmination of decades following the wrong philosophy and washing the brain of each citizen, fooling them into believing that a certain system benefits them when it actually doesn't at all.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.