rfbrw said:
OK, Show me a Communist or Socialist country where their system is working as well as you claim them to be.
It should be simple for you to do, given that I am so misinformed.
The Communist lineup
Cuba? struggling in poverty & blight..Soon to be gone.....
The former Russia? Gone.....
10's of little communist pockets in Africa??? Gone, Back, Gone Again!
East Germany? Gone...
Poland, and Most of the old Warsaw pact????? Gone away from the Communists....
(See also list below)
and the "Crown Jewel" of your proposed "communist utopia"
North Korea! Although, to be fair, it is more correctly a Communist Dictatorship.....But who's Counting?!?
The socialists & "Wanna' be's"
Czech Republic?? (yes I'm going to say it!) Canceled!
Hungary?? Not anymore they aren't!
France??? Need I say more?
England?? It's struggling with the people who are trying to shove socialism down everyones throats....and many are paying the price for it. I Hope smarter heads prevail!
Canada As a Canadian descendant, I am appalled at what is going on in Canada these days......It's much the same as England, and will share much the same fate if it continues on it's socialist path.
The FACTS are that Communism and Socialism DO NOT WORK!
I propose that what you seek to suggest is false. That because of the inherent flaws of those systems, they are destined to fail, and have done so, or are about to, in virtually all countries that have implemented them.
What I propose is that while the system We use here in the USA is not flawless, >NO SYSTEM WITH HUMANS IN IT CAN BE<, it is the best system in place today.
The other systems are functional, for a time, artificially, but ultimately will fail.
Tall Shadow
pinkmouse said:
Pinkmouse,
Thanks for the perspective from a brit!
I'd only say that seeing (A.) Socialized medicine (B.) The erosion of personal rights (Cameras everywhere, No right for personal protection, ETC.) and (C.) Government entitlement(s) going up in BOTH of our countries is a sure sign the Socialists are making progress further and further into Our governments, and hence, Our lives.
The Blair government is regarded as somewhat of an "odd bird" on this side of the pond. On the one hand it sees the threat posed by the events that are taking place there, and around the world, and is trying to do something about it. Yet, on the other hand, it still clings to many of the liberal ideals/goals/agendas that "set the stage" for many of these same events.
On Our side of the world, many of Our liberal/socialist "Friends" are doing the exact same thing. All too often the cries of "Why is this happening?" & "What we need is MORE Government programs!" are followed by "It's not their fault! They're Victims!" When the "Fruits" of their programs, once again, go horribly out of control.
It's exasperating!
I just wish we could somehow purge all of the "Lifetime Government Types" out of goverment.......But alas! Tis' not to be!
I'd guess that at the end of the day, most people just want to go to work, provide for their family, and have the freedom(s) to enjoy the benefits of all of their hard work.
It's too bad that there are people who would make even these simple wishes imposable.
Tall Shadow
I think the USA government and lifestyle is also soon to be gone. It's a system that autodestructs itself due to 99% of USA wealth shifting towards 1% of the USA population and also destroys its land due to Natural Resource wasting.
As oil and most Natural Resources will become harder and harder to obtain, USA will drown in poverty. Currently, value of USA imports is already 44% higher than value of exports (and growing), and they are importing more than 68% of the oil they use (also growing each year ). This is a serious deficit. Furthermore, Bush has brought additional trouble since war is not for free, it's very expensive.
On the other hand, here in Europe our governments are based in a lot of socialism principles, and there are a lot of plans for shifting towards non-oil energy sources, and I feel things are going much better here than in USA. We have Social Security, every citizen has the right to receive free health care, unemployment wages, retirement wages, widowness wages, etc... We have Public Schools and Universities, every citizen has the right to graduate and get university degrees almost for free (in Spain you have to pay absolutely nothing if you pass all subjects). We are full of evidences of socialism...
PD: Cuba without USA embargo would be much like any other European country.
As oil and most Natural Resources will become harder and harder to obtain, USA will drown in poverty. Currently, value of USA imports is already 44% higher than value of exports (and growing
), and they are importing more than 68% of the oil they use (also growing each year ). This is a serious deficit. Furthermore, Bush has brought additional trouble since war is not for free, it's very expensive.On the other hand, here in Europe our governments are based in a lot of socialism principles, and there are a lot of plans for shifting towards non-oil energy sources, and I feel things are going much better here than in USA. We have Social Security, every citizen has the right to receive free health care, unemployment wages, retirement wages, widowness wages, etc... We have Public Schools and Universities, every citizen has the right to graduate and get university degrees almost for free (in Spain you have to pay absolutely nothing if you pass all subjects). We are full of evidences of socialism...
PD: Cuba without USA embargo would be much like any other European country.
There are other ways to make fuel other than oil. But you would have to ask the oil companies...as they own many alternitive fuel source patents. When the oil runs out, something to replace it will be phased in, there is too much money involved to just let the whole system go belly up. Unlike in socialism, money will drive this change, but not till it is profitable. There is not the demand yet for other types of cars that are not powered by internal combustion piston engine, which BTW is old technology, but nearly perfected. Right now, it is not as profitable to change.
I have faith in what little capitalism is left that when the strings are pulled, the puppet will dance to a different tune.
I have faith in what little capitalism is left that when the strings are pulled, the puppet will dance to a different tune.
40 per cent of wealth in the United States is held by the richest 1 per cent of the population (and growing each year).
In comparison, only 18 per cent of wealth in Britain is held by the richest 1 per cent of the population (stabilized).
Also, there are 35 million of USA citizens currently defined by the government as "food insecure" and "below the poberty line", in other words, hungry (and numbers are growing). This is 13% of the population, or 1 in each 8.
This means that 270 million of USA citizens will probaly end up having almost nothing and hating capitalism while the remaining 2.7 million will enjoy being the richest people in the world.
The unoposed action of capitalism leads to these situations. It's as bad or even worse than the worst implementation of comunism.
In comparison, only 18 per cent of wealth in Britain is held by the richest 1 per cent of the population (stabilized).
Also, there are 35 million of USA citizens currently defined by the government as "food insecure" and "below the poberty line", in other words, hungry (and numbers are growing). This is 13% of the population, or 1 in each 8.
This means that 270 million of USA citizens will probaly end up having almost nothing and hating capitalism while the remaining 2.7 million will enjoy being the richest people in the world.
The unoposed action of capitalism leads to these situations. It's as bad or even worse than the worst implementation of comunism.
CBS240 said:There are other ways to make fuel other than oil. But you would have to ask the oil companies...as they own many alternitive fuel source patents. When the oil runs out, something to replace it will be phased in, there is too much money involved to just let the whole system go belly up. Unlike in socialism, money will drive this change, but not till it is profitable. There is not the demand yet for other types of cars that are not powered by internal combustion piston engine, which BTW is old technology, but nearly perfected. Right now, it is not as profitable to change.
I have faith in what little capitalism is left that when the strings are pulled, the puppet will dance to a different tune.
To misquote Spock " Its capitalism, Jim but not as Adam Smith knew it"
Eva said:
Oh Yes!, "We are all doomed! There is no way I can ever become anything more than I am in this evil system!"You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
There are few other places in the world where ANYONE! can be whatever they want, or have the desire/drive to be. If you want to be rich, if you want to be famous, if you want to pursue the "Impossible" The opportunity for it is here.
Let's see.......Who is that guy.....You know...that guy with the most money in the world.......Let me think.....OH YES!
BILL GATES.....Former poor computer geek, now WORLDS RICHEST MAN.... And Where did this happen????????
Well GEEEEEEE! In America........WOW what a surprise!
Go Peddle your Drivel somewhere else.
Eva said:As oil and most Natural Resources will become harder and harder to obtain, USA will drown in poverty. Currently, value of USA imports is already 44% higher than value of exports (and growing
OH PEAK OIL! PEAK OIL!
THE SKY IS FALLING!
Peak Oil and other Lies
Eva said:
And how expensive is Terrorism?
What is the price I put on my children's lives? My Wife's? My Country? My Way of Life?
Islamic Terrorists wish to convert or kill all of that which I hold dear. To me there is no cost too great to hunt them down. I would rather hunt and fight them "Over there" rather then at my doorstep, but I will fight them wherever I can.
Eva said:
Let me let you in on a little secret that the rest of the world already knows about........
Nothing is free!
Social Security, Education, Health care, Unemployment benefits, Retirement benefits, Widow's benefits, ETC.
ARE ALL PAID FOR BY TAXATION/SUSPENSION OF FREEDOMS ON THOSE WHO ARE WORKING/ CONTRIBUTING TO A SOCIETY! TO THEIR DETRIMENT
This cycle goes on, and on, until there is no one left to pay all of the taxes required to support the systems.....Then you have economic/social collapse.
GREAT SYSTEM!
Eva said:
Any other European Country with a senile, Crazy, Communist Dictator as it's head of the government. I can agree with that.
Your argument has no basis in truth or reality.
My Country is not a perfect system, but it has done more, Better, in a shorter time, with less, then anyone else ever has. As long as We can keep the original intents Our founding fathers set down to guide this country, We will continue to so.
Tall Shadow
CBS240 said:There are other ways to make fuel other than oil. But you would have to ask the oil companies...as they own many alternitive fuel source patents. When the oil runs out, something to replace it will be phased in, there is too much money involved to just let the whole system go belly up. Unlike in socialism, money will drive this change, but not till it is profitable. There is not the demand yet for other types of cars that are not powered by internal combustion piston engine, which BTW is old technology, but nearly perfected. Right now, it is not as profitable to change.
I have faith in what little capitalism is left that when the strings are pulled, the puppet will dance to a different tune.
Too True.
Lets review......
Oil Companies are in business to make money......
Oil, for now, Is the best way to do so for them.....
If, at some time in the future, an alternative was available and could be made to meet demand, make money, and therefore be profitable.....Guess what!
They would do it in a heartbeat!
Right now there are other ways to provide many of the "Jobs" that oil and it's byproducts provide for the world. They are, however, Much more expensive.
Take, for instance, Alcohol as a motor fuel. It actually takes more energy to make, than it can produce.
Fuel cells are a promising technology, but it's going to be YEARS/DECADES before they can be made at a cost/quantity that can make then viable.
My point is....
Busineses are in business TO MAKE MONEY. Any business that could make it with alternitive fuels would.
They just are not viable Yet.....
I work in the Automotive industry(Gee!, and I live in the Detroit area, what a surprise!) and there are MILLIONS & MILLIONS of dollars going into these areas. If there was/is a way to make a breakthrough, It's going to come out. There is too much money involved to sit on something that could be worth BILLIONS or TRILLIONS of dollars.
Take off your tinfoil hat and relax.....It'll just take some time.
Tall Shadow
How could you be whatever you want if you can't afford university and you will be left diying of appendicitis at the door of the hospital if you forgot your credit card?. The only way you can become anything in USA is by having a lot of money to start with, or having the luck that only 1 in 1 million people has. If you were born poor you are most likely to die poorer in such a system. You all are just fooled into thinking that you can become whatever you want, even those homeless people that live under a bridge.
Otherwise most USA citizens wuould already have as much money as Bill Gates has, but obviously they won't ever get close. The numbers tell the story, 40% of USA wealth is hogged by 1% of the population, and this is growing. This means that the straight USA worker gets poorer each year, while Bill Gates gets richer by selling buggy software. What a nice system.
Also, couldn't you be whatever you want in Europe? (or in Cuba for that matter).
Note that by the end of 2002 there were already 43.6 million Americans without health insurance (more than 15 per cent of the population), and this is growing too. You are becoming progressively third world as more and more of your people can't get elemental services like health and education.
Right. He owns the money that should be used to pay university and medicine for millions of Americans who whill never have a single chance to become anything more than straight workers without studies nor health insurance.
Think about it that way: Money is not created nor destroyed, there is an almost fixed amount of money in the world, so the only way to become extremely rich is to cause 100.000 people to become extremely poor.
Your government was so desperate about oil that they decided to invade Iraq to ensure supplies. Unfortunately, things have gone terribly wrong and Bush is absolutely incapable of finishing what he started. His popularity is lower each day. That never-ending war costs money to the tax-payer and it's creating an outrageous deficit. Terrorism was just a bad excuse to start it. Terrorism is what we have got in Europe due to that war (Madrid, London, dozens of minor bombs and whatever is going to come), there is a great consensus that the world was much safer before it started.
Also, note that USA is using 5 times more oil per citizen than European countries, and that the oil barrel will be soon at $80 due to such an outrageous demand. Be prepared to pay $5 per gallon of gas like we are doing.
War is not free, it's paid with your taxes. If I had to choose, I would always prefer to pay education and health with my taxes rather than war and your mass destruction weapons, don't you?
Taxes and socialism are fair systems that compensate a bit for the widely known fact that rich people is always likely to get richer while poor people is always likely to become poorer.
Also, if our socialistic system is working so bad, then, why the Euro is getting stronger while the dollar is worth less and less every day? (1 euro = 1.22 dollars and growing)
Are you going to devastate several countries, leaving several million of people homeles and jobless, and killing 100.000 civilians (including other people's childrens and wifes) just to catch a dozen of terrorists that may be anywhere in the world? This is an extremely non-sense excuse for war, shame on you that believe it.
Anyway, USA is the only country in the world that dared to throw two atomic bombs (mass destruction weapons!!) on civilian targets (two plain Japanese cities!!). 100.000 civilians were killed in a minute and another 300.000 will die later. Not even Hitler was able to kill so much people in such a short period of time. This is what I call terrorism (government terrorism).
Most ironic part is that you are trying to persuade Iran into not using uranium for civilian purposes while you have thousands of nuclear mass destruction weapons ready to use on us whenever you want.
There are a lot of East European countries that matched this criteria quite well, including Germany and the URSS! and they are fine by now. You are overlooking the fact that the entire Europe has socialistic roots and these principles are still in use today.
Obviously your education system is very poor at History and Geography so I can't expect you to have a clue about Europe and its history. All what is teached to your children is just your Civilian War and your geography, overlooking the rest of the world. Most USA citizens are not even able to find Europe, Africa or Australia in a world map while nearly all Europeans can find America.
If your founding fathers were able to see what USA has become, they would feel so deceived that they would commit suicide inmediately. Their sweet dream has become a nightmare.
In MOST cases the bums under the bridge have made choices in their life that got them there, although here in US the blame game is popular. So am I supposed to just give them the stack that I worked hard for and earned a reputation for?
If you had any idea the many ways to pay for University here, let's see...Scholorships(if you earn it), grants(not loans), federal student loans(at pretty good interest rate) just to name a few. And plenty of social programs to help those of lower income families.
Why should I have to pay for the drunk crack heads to have another opprotunity at life for them to just waste on drugs and poor choices? I am paying for a student loan now, the system works unless you are a slacker. Very few people in the world have this kind of chance at life on this rock, it is what you make it.
If you had any idea the many ways to pay for University here, let's see...Scholorships(if you earn it), grants(not loans), federal student loans(at pretty good interest rate) just to name a few. And plenty of social programs to help those of lower income families.
Why should I have to pay for the drunk crack heads to have another opprotunity at life for them to just waste on drugs and poor choices? I am paying for a student loan now, the system works unless you are a slacker. Very few people in the world have this kind of chance at life on this rock, it is what you make it.
CBS, the public college and university system here in California is quite inexpensive up to the Cal State level. Once you get to the Berkeley/UCLA level, it's not so cheap, but if you're poor and have the brains to succeed there, they go out of their way to get you in and get your tuition paid.
Walk around Berkeley (as good a university as exists in the world) and you see immigrants, kids of immigrants, middle class kids, poor kids, the whole spectrum- though heavily weighted toward first or second generation Asians. It is decidedly not an enclave of the rich.
Walk around Berkeley (as good a university as exists in the world) and you see immigrants, kids of immigrants, middle class kids, poor kids, the whole spectrum- though heavily weighted toward first or second generation Asians. It is decidedly not an enclave of the rich.
Lots of screwed up people are products of two decades of lacky parenting and responsibility, a failing public government run school system, and the constant stream of degenerate pornographic garbage transmitted out of Hollywood everyday.
Just because you have the right to free speach and to export that kind of stuff into society doesn't mean that you SHOULD. This shows obvious lack of responsibility. Maybe this is why the Islamists hate America because they don't want thier daugters to become ****** and marrying each other and walking the streets at night. If this is the only America they see on TV and movies, why wouldn't they believe it?
IOTW maybe this type of media helps fuel thier resentment.
Of course I would not hold the strict Islamists as the model of how a society should treat thier women.
Freedoms do not come without responsibility. I have the right to own firearms, but I am responsibile for that firearm's use. If people don't want to be burdened with responsibility, they can't be free.
Just because you have the right to free speach and to export that kind of stuff into society doesn't mean that you SHOULD. This shows obvious lack of responsibility. Maybe this is why the Islamists hate America because they don't want thier daugters to become ****** and marrying each other and walking the streets at night. If this is the only America they see on TV and movies, why wouldn't they believe it?
IOTW maybe this type of media helps fuel thier resentment.
Of course I would not hold the strict Islamists as the model of how a society should treat thier women.
Freedoms do not come without responsibility. I have the right to own firearms, but I am responsibile for that firearm's use. If people don't want to be burdened with responsibility, they can't be free.
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