I haven't spent alot of time looking at that driver to be fair but it looks good for some applications.
It's difficult but many of Visaton offerings aren't what I would call budget priced. And unfortunately their budget offerings don't really offer much bang for buck especially when overseas delivery is factored in.
When I bought the G20sc I got them for around £30 GBP each which I considered not too cheap to expect good performance but safely out of the trendy but expensive range. I would recommend something like a cone tweeter as it would likely be cheaper but aspects of the sound may suffer, depending on your goals.
I have used the Visaton FRS5X and here it is ~£6 GBP, BUT....
It isn't ruler flat frequency response, it has only mediocre to OK THD, takes few watts power only. Lastly when I ordered a batch I had one of the six with a warped frame which is think stamped steel.
Those would cost less in shipping due to weight and can sound rather good, but I hesitate to recommend as they aren't perfect and are built to a cost which is low.
I.e. you could do better, in terms of sound THD etc. But you may like them, as I did.
It's difficult but many of Visaton offerings aren't what I would call budget priced. And unfortunately their budget offerings don't really offer much bang for buck especially when overseas delivery is factored in.
When I bought the G20sc I got them for around £30 GBP each which I considered not too cheap to expect good performance but safely out of the trendy but expensive range. I would recommend something like a cone tweeter as it would likely be cheaper but aspects of the sound may suffer, depending on your goals.
I have used the Visaton FRS5X and here it is ~£6 GBP, BUT....
It isn't ruler flat frequency response, it has only mediocre to OK THD, takes few watts power only. Lastly when I ordered a batch I had one of the six with a warped frame which is think stamped steel.
Those would cost less in shipping due to weight and can sound rather good, but I hesitate to recommend as they aren't perfect and are built to a cost which is low.
I.e. you could do better, in terms of sound THD etc. But you may like them, as I did.
Hi Marc. I see this sound as just what these speakers do! A BBC style, albeit tending to phase-aligned LR2. There's a lot to like there.
The Visaton W170S-4 is an easier driver really, which can work off 1mH and 10uF, but do you want low impedance?
Lead guitar energy is mostly around 2kHz, and these 6" speakers have a dip in power response at that point. Off-axis. I don't think changing tweeters will affect that much. I have some Visaton DT94 mylar tweeters, and they are likeable enough:
Maybe you could do a BW3 90 degree phase alignment and a bit of boost to both drivers at crossover. That would fix the power response. I don't know. It's another design!
The Visaton W170S-4 is an easier driver really, which can work off 1mH and 10uF, but do you want low impedance?
Lead guitar energy is mostly around 2kHz, and these 6" speakers have a dip in power response at that point. Off-axis. I don't think changing tweeters will affect that much. I have some Visaton DT94 mylar tweeters, and they are likeable enough:
Maybe you could do a BW3 90 degree phase alignment and a bit of boost to both drivers at crossover. That would fix the power response. I don't know. It's another design!
Hi Steve, good to hear from you!
See, the thing is that there isn't much of a problem at all. I just find that when the tweeters are tasked with handling the high ringing notes of a slightly overdriven electric guitar (around that 2 kHz mark), they struggle with the other frequencies in the mix. With pure sine waves, they do perfectly. Because of this, I have done a lot of listening to the detail in the high frequencies, and I just feel the SC10Ns aren't quite as good as I can do. So the plan is to keep everything as is and drop in new, better quality tweeters.
I have found that the driver layout is fine when you move to either side of the speaker, but if you stand, the difference in response is noticeable. I believe the classic layout of a 2-way will be a little more flexible.
In other words, I want to change the layout, change the tweeter, and while I'm at it, try a simpler (and easier) crossover like what Lojzek posted. It doesn't hurt to experiment. What I really like is that I can use three component values: a 10uF, a 0.15mH and a 1.5mH. I also want to hear what putting less between the amplifier and drivers will do.
Still, all I'm trying to do is polish the diamond. These speakers are truly amazing. I gave them another in-depth test tonight, and the definition is fantastic, especially the mids and lows. I just feel they'll really pop with a better tweeter.
See, the thing is that there isn't much of a problem at all. I just find that when the tweeters are tasked with handling the high ringing notes of a slightly overdriven electric guitar (around that 2 kHz mark), they struggle with the other frequencies in the mix. With pure sine waves, they do perfectly. Because of this, I have done a lot of listening to the detail in the high frequencies, and I just feel the SC10Ns aren't quite as good as I can do. So the plan is to keep everything as is and drop in new, better quality tweeters.
I have found that the driver layout is fine when you move to either side of the speaker, but if you stand, the difference in response is noticeable. I believe the classic layout of a 2-way will be a little more flexible.
In other words, I want to change the layout, change the tweeter, and while I'm at it, try a simpler (and easier) crossover like what Lojzek posted. It doesn't hurt to experiment. What I really like is that I can use three component values: a 10uF, a 0.15mH and a 1.5mH. I also want to hear what putting less between the amplifier and drivers will do.
Still, all I'm trying to do is polish the diamond. These speakers are truly amazing. I gave them another in-depth test tonight, and the definition is fantastic, especially the mids and lows. I just feel they'll really pop with a better tweeter.
modogenerator, I like the sound of cone tweeters. They're very sweet sounding. The FRX5 is quite expensive for what it is. Unfortunately I can't find them for 6 GBP. But I need a tweeter with better dispersion. I don't sit down to listen to music all the time. I most often put music on while I go about my daily tasks. But I did also consider the B80, but I think those Vifa tweeters will do better, especially to the pocket.
It's a bit of a house-style with Visaton to have the tweeter Fs at about 1.4kHz. I'm not sure it's a bad thing if the resonance is well damped.
I was puzzling over this.
We've already mentioned that tweeter coil could be better aligned away from the bass coils. Crosstalk, an' all that.
I'm not overly fond of tank notches. Like the 1uF/6.8R jobbie. Bit of a last resort, IMO. I found that when they break up, they sound very harsh and metallic, and I don't fit them any more.
Lojzek's filter is something I've built myself in the past. I was never very happy with the tonal balance. With or without a 5kHz tank notch on the bass. But who knows?
But losing the notch might help. I also looked at some quick and dirty mods to your current circuit. The 15uF on the tweeter becomes optional. It's near BW3 with it, and near LR2 without. But it deals with cone breakup very well. The dotted line is your current circuit.
I was puzzling over this.
We've already mentioned that tweeter coil could be better aligned away from the bass coils. Crosstalk, an' all that.
I'm not overly fond of tank notches. Like the 1uF/6.8R jobbie. Bit of a last resort, IMO. I found that when they break up, they sound very harsh and metallic, and I don't fit them any more.
Lojzek's filter is something I've built myself in the past. I was never very happy with the tonal balance. With or without a 5kHz tank notch on the bass. But who knows?
But losing the notch might help. I also looked at some quick and dirty mods to your current circuit. The 15uF on the tweeter becomes optional. It's near BW3 with it, and near LR2 without. But it deals with cone breakup very well. The dotted line is your current circuit.
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Yes, I did mention in a previous post not too long ago that I need to orientate that tweeter inductor differently before anything else.
I'm in two minds about that tank notch, but either way, I'm keeping this crossover as is. There's nothing wrong with it. I suppose I could use higher quality components in the future (now that it's a possibility).
I think I will start a new search today. I'm going to be looking at Scanspeak and Seas tweeters in my search. I anyway have a good use for the SC10N's if they come out.
Removing the 15uF might be something I can consider. Perhaps with a switch. I'll look into that, thanks!
I'm in two minds about that tank notch, but either way, I'm keeping this crossover as is. There's nothing wrong with it. I suppose I could use higher quality components in the future (now that it's a possibility).
I think I will start a new search today. I'm going to be looking at Scanspeak and Seas tweeters in my search. I anyway have a good use for the SC10N's if they come out.
Removing the 15uF might be something I can consider. Perhaps with a switch. I'll look into that, thanks!
Marc, I would be cautious in diagnosing what the problem is here.
I don't think an offset tweeter is at all an issue. Many people feel it has better dispersion being asymettric: SEAS CURV
And this Troels Gravesen SEAS Curv design is phase-aligned. As is yours. Joachim Gerhard is not averse to offset either.
It is quite possible to put your hand over the tweeter and have a good listen to the midbass. I built a speaker that seemed to shriek a bit on certain female vocals, but I found the culprit was the midbass, which was a bit peaky. Easily fixed with more resistor damping.
It may be that it is the whole soft-dome principle that isn't winning a cigar here. I replaced a cheapie mylar Sony balanced tweeter with a Morel soft-dome. It just didn't disappear the way a good integrated setup should. I went back to the mylar.
Before spending big bucks, I'd try the simple things. I quite like that BW3 adjustment without the notch. You could possibly get near enough by borrowing a 4.7uF from the tweeter filter.
I don't think an offset tweeter is at all an issue. Many people feel it has better dispersion being asymettric: SEAS CURV
And this Troels Gravesen SEAS Curv design is phase-aligned. As is yours. Joachim Gerhard is not averse to offset either.
It is quite possible to put your hand over the tweeter and have a good listen to the midbass. I built a speaker that seemed to shriek a bit on certain female vocals, but I found the culprit was the midbass, which was a bit peaky. Easily fixed with more resistor damping.
It may be that it is the whole soft-dome principle that isn't winning a cigar here. I replaced a cheapie mylar Sony balanced tweeter with a Morel soft-dome. It just didn't disappear the way a good integrated setup should. I went back to the mylar.
Before spending big bucks, I'd try the simple things. I quite like that BW3 adjustment without the notch. You could possibly get near enough by borrowing a 4.7uF from the tweeter filter.
Attachments
kimon, I will do a search for Monacor as well. I have a good 3 months to find something. I was thinking about getting some Visaton stuff while I'm at it, and the place I found that stocks some decent stuff as well as Visaton is Parts Express. I can either shop in South Africa (not ideal - expensive) or USA. I quite like the Vifa NE19VTS, but the one I would probably take is my number 1 listed; the Seas Prestige H1280. So if I get anything Visaton, it will probably have to be the Vifa, if not, I can get that Seas. But I will definitely look if I can find some nice Monacors as well - thank you for mentioning that! I've heard very good things about Monacor.
Steve, there are two important things:
1. There isn't a problem
2. I can't spend big bucks because I don't have the bank balance
What I've got has some of the best-defined lows I have heard. This is in comparison to B&W 683, B&W CM10, Monitor Audio BX2 and Bronze 6. The MA Bronze 6 were my winner out of those listed as best-defined bass, and what I built is about as good in that department.
There are essentially two changes high on my priority list:
1. Build in some reinforcement because there is a resonance in the enclosure at about 200 Hz.
2. Replace the tweeter because I think the SC10N is the weak point in the system.
Number 2 there is that I can hear the tweeter can't cope. I covered the mid-bass and the tweeter for listening tests, and the mid-bass is fine. The tweeter is actually quite good, but I believe it can be better - it doesn't seem to cope well (in other words define the frequencies adequately) when tasked with reproducing a wide spectrum. I'm looking at the $20 range for tweeters, and I have 3 months to save the mere $40-$60.
I only want to experiment with Lojzek's crossover because it's cheap and possible. I don't want to take my current one apart. One day when there is time, I can try another crossover. One step at a time. If I had the resources, I'd build 3 pairs, each with a different crossover, then I'd do A-B-C testing and proper measurements. Unfortunately I don't have the time, let alone the money.
However, I am very keen to try a lot of things. That's the hobby, isn't it? And I soak up everything from all the awesome replies I get, because my thirst for knowledge is endless, and I appreciate all the replies beyond what I can express in words. So thank you for the very useful information. If I don't build it, I do simulate it, and I do learn from it.
I was thinking about getting some Visaton stuff while I'm at it, and the place I found that stocks some decent stuff as well as Visaton is Parts Express. I can either shop in South Africa (not ideal - expensive) or USA. I quite like the Vifa NE19VTS, but the one I would probably take is my number 1 listed; the Seas Prestige H1280. So if I get anything Visaton, it will probably have to be the Vifa, if not, I can get that Seas. But I will definitely look if I can find some nice Monacors as well - thank you for mentioning that! I've heard very good things about Monacor.Steve, there are two important things:
1. There isn't a problem
2. I can't spend big bucks because I don't have the bank balance
What I've got has some of the best-defined lows I have heard. This is in comparison to B&W 683, B&W CM10, Monitor Audio BX2 and Bronze 6. The MA Bronze 6 were my winner out of those listed as best-defined bass, and what I built is about as good in that department.
There are essentially two changes high on my priority list:
1. Build in some reinforcement because there is a resonance in the enclosure at about 200 Hz.
2. Replace the tweeter because I think the SC10N is the weak point in the system.
Number 2 there is that I can hear the tweeter can't cope. I covered the mid-bass and the tweeter for listening tests, and the mid-bass is fine. The tweeter is actually quite good, but I believe it can be better - it doesn't seem to cope well (in other words define the frequencies adequately) when tasked with reproducing a wide spectrum. I'm looking at the $20 range for tweeters, and I have 3 months to save the mere $40-$60.
I only want to experiment with Lojzek's crossover because it's cheap and possible. I don't want to take my current one apart. One day when there is time, I can try another crossover. One step at a time. If I had the resources, I'd build 3 pairs, each with a different crossover, then I'd do A-B-C testing and proper measurements. Unfortunately I don't have the time, let alone the money.
However, I am very keen to try a lot of things. That's the hobby, isn't it? And I soak up everything from all the awesome replies I get, because my thirst for knowledge is endless, and I appreciate all the replies beyond what I can express in words. So thank you for the very useful information. If I don't build it, I do simulate it, and I do learn from it.
Here is a side note for a new post, so, on to the pressing current affairs.
The tweeter replacement is going to happen. It is decided, and there is nothing that will change my mind (except my wife, perhaps). Speaking of wives, the WAF of my large stand mount speakers appears to be quite low. I also wanted to experiment with a floor-stander. So I started a new enclosure build (I happily had all the wood for a nice pair of 42 L boxes). Half way through, my wife put her stamp of approval on - she actually likes how they look, let alone puts up with them. She doesn't like the speaker stands.
Anyway, I'm moving my entire speaker to this floor-stander, crossover and all. The baffle will be removable for now, and I'm going to tune the box to about 38 Hz. I will do the finishings when the correct tweeter is in, then it's going to be sealed off and shut for good.
It's going to be something like this:
I can change the layout of the baffle quite easily, if need be.
I will keep track of this on the correct thread:
Visaton 2 way tower or Monitor Audio Bronze 5
The question of the tweeter stands. Any opinions on any good experience with any good tweeter will be very much appreciated.
The tweeter replacement is going to happen. It is decided, and there is nothing that will change my mind (except my wife, perhaps). Speaking of wives, the WAF of my large stand mount speakers appears to be quite low. I also wanted to experiment with a floor-stander. So I started a new enclosure build (I happily had all the wood for a nice pair of 42 L boxes). Half way through, my wife put her stamp of approval on - she actually likes how they look, let alone puts up with them. She doesn't like the speaker stands.
Anyway, I'm moving my entire speaker to this floor-stander, crossover and all. The baffle will be removable for now, and I'm going to tune the box to about 38 Hz. I will do the finishings when the correct tweeter is in, then it's going to be sealed off and shut for good.
It's going to be something like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I can change the layout of the baffle quite easily, if need be.
I will keep track of this on the correct thread:
Visaton 2 way tower or Monitor Audio Bronze 5
The question of the tweeter stands. Any opinions on any good experience with any good tweeter will be very much appreciated.
So the tower worked out extremely well. Better than I could have imagined.
However, they have exposed some things I'd like to change.
What I'm doing is stretching the woofers a bit too far. I don't think they work well beyond 1.5 kHz. What I mean by that is that they seem to not be well matched when heading into the non-linear region. It could be the crossovers.
So, I'm lowering the crossover frequency and getting a pair of Peerless XT25BG60-04 (those things that look like a nipple). I'm going with Lojzek's crossover suggestion - it's the best price-performance-simplicity ratio.
I decided to buy inductors this time, just to ensure the tolerances are small. I have attached the final simulations and crossover design. This is something that will only happen in January. At least it gives me time to tinker with my amplifier. I need to revisit the bias setting - in our current hot weather, the one fan comes on at idle (it must be near 35 C where the amplifier is). While this, I can finally get to wiring the amplifier properly, which is long overdue.
However, they have exposed some things I'd like to change.
What I'm doing is stretching the woofers a bit too far. I don't think they work well beyond 1.5 kHz. What I mean by that is that they seem to not be well matched when heading into the non-linear region. It could be the crossovers.
So, I'm lowering the crossover frequency and getting a pair of Peerless XT25BG60-04 (those things that look like a nipple). I'm going with Lojzek's crossover suggestion - it's the best price-performance-simplicity ratio.
I decided to buy inductors this time, just to ensure the tolerances are small. I have attached the final simulations and crossover design. This is something that will only happen in January. At least it gives me time to tinker with my amplifier. I need to revisit the bias setting - in our current hot weather, the one fan comes on at idle (it must be near 35 C where the amplifier is). While this, I can finally get to wiring the amplifier properly, which is long overdue.
Attachments
I found that the W170S's have a little distortion near the top of the spectrum I expect of them. If I do get the crossover to about 1.5 kHz, the W170S's will still introduce a little too much distortion. The distortion is at about 1.8 kHz. I'm going to cross a little lower, at about 1.2 kHz - 1.3 kHz.
I investigated using another driver, but it turns out that these W170S's are perfect for fairly large 2-way floor standers, and it's not easy to find a suitable replacement, especially one which will get rid of distortion to a noticeable difference. Changing the tweeters and lowering the XO frequency will make the best difference. 3 months to go.
I investigated using another driver, but it turns out that these W170S's are perfect for fairly large 2-way floor standers, and it's not easy to find a suitable replacement, especially one which will get rid of distortion to a noticeable difference. Changing the tweeters and lowering the XO frequency will make the best difference. 3 months to go.
Right, so I'd like to add here that the problem was likely the woofers. I've added a second in MTM configuration, and I can't detect any problems.
I think the one woofer on its own was having to do too much. I also changed the crossover significantly, which may have helped.
It's indeed a cool idea. Coincidentally, the crossover is still around the same - 2350 Hz. The woofer was the problem. Adding a second one and changing the crossover filter shape made quite a difference. I've tested the speakers at ridiculous volume and they are crystal.
If you do it, you`d need to rework your crossover (I saw you liked Shaun`s idea so decided to put my 2c). You`ll only gain from this operation.
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