There's just so many ways to build a speaker!
Troels Gravesen never thought this one would be as popular as it turned out:
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
You've got to be enthusiastic about a design. But also choose drivers that play nicely together. 3 ways are the best no doubt. And 8"/4"/1" is one of those classic combinations.
Like Lojzek, I have my own little projects on the go. I'm currently interested in the old Celestion 25. But I thought I might use 8" W200S, 2x TW70 and a supertweeter. That with that great BBC passive bafflestep and impedance correction idea has got me modelling. Seems that great speakers are easy to drive (flattish impedance) in my current thinking.
BTW, there's nothing stopping you redesigning the crossover on your Celestions. I bet it's simplistic!
Troels Gravesen never thought this one would be as popular as it turned out:
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
You've got to be enthusiastic about a design. But also choose drivers that play nicely together. 3 ways are the best no doubt. And 8"/4"/1" is one of those classic combinations.
Like Lojzek, I have my own little projects on the go. I'm currently interested in the old Celestion 25. But I thought I might use 8" W200S, 2x TW70 and a supertweeter. That with that great BBC passive bafflestep and impedance correction idea has got me modelling. Seems that great speakers are easy to drive (flattish impedance) in my current thinking.
BTW, there's nothing stopping you redesigning the crossover on your Celestions. I bet it's simplistic!
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I'm probably getting carried away here. But here's what is good about twin midranges wired in series.
Back in the day of the 1980's we in the UK were kinda stuck on dull inefficient plastic bextrene basses. Then along came Wharfedale with their efficient E70.
No one wanted to admit it, but this speaker was astonishingly good. It sang! It went loud without distortion.
There's loads of reasons why it was good in hindsight. How MTM works is the twin drivers just don't get pushed very hard individually. Because you gain level just by twinning them up.
So here's an E70. Another classic idea that works. That particular drivers are probably less important than the great idea. I could do this with Visaton drivers.
Back in the day of the 1980's we in the UK were kinda stuck on dull inefficient plastic bextrene basses. Then along came Wharfedale with their efficient E70.
No one wanted to admit it, but this speaker was astonishingly good. It sang! It went loud without distortion.
There's loads of reasons why it was good in hindsight. How MTM works is the twin drivers just don't get pushed very hard individually. Because you gain level just by twinning them up.
So here's an E70. Another classic idea that works. That particular drivers are probably less important than the great idea. I could do this with Visaton drivers.
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You're doing good Mrcloc. But you are following me too blindly. The three way theory looks like this:
I'd start with Troels' 3 way classic as a filter, because you have failed to isolate the mid from the bass with a capacitor and coil. SEAS-3-Way-Classic
But then input your own ideas. Troels Gravesen is certainly no fool. But everybody's ideas evolve.
I'd start with Troels' 3 way classic as a filter, because you have failed to isolate the mid from the bass with a capacitor and coil. SEAS-3-Way-Classic
But then input your own ideas. Troels Gravesen is certainly no fool. But everybody's ideas evolve.
Ah, but what I've done is indeed not a 3 way. I've used the W100S to reinforce the lower frequencies. As an intended side-effect, it ends up smoothing the midrage as well. The only problem here is the power handling of the W100S limits the maximum input power.
Perhaps I must try a true three way, and see where that takes me.
Thanks!
I've used the W100S to reinforce the lower frequencies. As an intended side-effect, it ends up smoothing the midrage as well. The only problem here is the power handling of the W100S limits the maximum input power.Perhaps I must try a true three way, and see where that takes me.
Thanks!
Ok, so I like the last design I posted. I like the sensitivity and power handling, and I like the look of the response. I don't like the massive component count of the crossover, but if it does a good job, I have nothing against it.
I set up the enclosure design in boxsim, and it looks something like attached, with the frequency response attached as well.
Steve, I've been trawling a bit, and I see you've been helping wlg upgrade his speakers, which are based on 2xW200S's each. I like the stuff you've been saying there - it makes sense. I don't think I'm going to tackle a 3-way design.
Name's Marc.
I set up the enclosure design in boxsim, and it looks something like attached, with the frequency response attached as well.
Steve, I've been trawling a bit, and I see you've been helping wlg upgrade his speakers, which are based on 2xW200S's each. I like the stuff you've been saying there - it makes sense. I don't think I'm going to tackle a 3-way design.
Name's Marc.
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I was surprised how little I had to do to Troels' design with a W200S-8, W100S-8 and SC10N.
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
The bass section is different because the (2.3mH) W200S is much higher inductance than the (1mH) CA22RNX. But that's about it.
The SC 10 N - 8 Ohm is higher DCR at 6.9R than the 4.8R H0881-06 27TFFC, which might justify an impedance conversion of the tweeter filter to 3.3uF/0.25mH/10uF.
But what's not to like?
You build what you like, Marc, but this one looks OK. The reason 3 ways sound so clean is the midrange is spared bass excursion, which reduces distortion dramatically.
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
The bass section is different because the (2.3mH) W200S is much higher inductance than the (1mH) CA22RNX. But that's about it.
The SC 10 N - 8 Ohm is higher DCR at 6.9R than the 4.8R H0881-06 27TFFC, which might justify an impedance conversion of the tweeter filter to 3.3uF/0.25mH/10uF.
But what's not to like?
You build what you like, Marc, but this one looks OK. The reason 3 ways sound so clean is the midrange is spared bass excursion, which reduces distortion dramatically.
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I really do like that, thanks! I'm just not keen on stepping into designing a 3-way because of the various complexities. I completely agree with the purpose though. The seas 3 way classic is also a beautiful design. I think one of the shortcomings of the F20's is that the tweeter isn't adequately isolated from the lower frequencies, and it distorts too easily.
Using a W100S, what would the total input power rating be? Would it be worth using something with more power handling in it's place? Say a W130S?
And thank you again! I've already learned stacks, and I'm feeling a little more confident with a DIY option.
Using a W100S, what would the total input power rating be? Would it be worth using something with more power handling in it's place? Say a W130S?
And thank you again! I've already learned stacks, and I'm feeling a little more confident with a DIY option.
Marc, I would suggest to build a three way speaker in a WWMT configuration. Two W170S-8 in parallel, one W100S-4 and a tweeter of your choice. This setup would be capable of about 88 dB/2,83V/1m with good 120W power handling. Boxsim is the best option for you with the good probability of achieving decent sonics without making actual measurements. I'll help along if you want me too. I thought you were contemplating of using a small bassmid with a larger woofer, but it was a W170S, so I corrected the last sentence.
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I'm truly shocked how much you pay for these Visaton things in South Africa!
Visaton Speakers & Kits : PQSound.co.za, Audio Visual Supplier
I found cheapish capacitors, and resistors can't be difficult, but no coils at all.
The bookshelf Celestion F15, floorstander F20 and twin-bass F30 seem to use a similar 5" polycone and an allegedly "grainy" 19mm titanium tweeter in different layouts and cabinets.
I have a UNI-T UT70A multimeter meter which can measure capacitors and the usually unmarked coils. This is useful to see what is salvageable in old stuff.
Crossovers for 5" usually aren't rocket science.
Vifa PL14WJ-
Here a D'Appolito style, but the conversion is rapid to an MT. I would think 1.8mH and 6.8uF on an 8 ohm bass. And adjust tweeter level. I always find a zobel around 7.5R and 0.68uF on a metal tweeter helps too. So I'm thinking you should do some measuring (driver resistance!) and inspection of what you have here. Tinkering with an existing design is always a fun thing to do.
Visaton Speakers & Kits : PQSound.co.za, Audio Visual Supplier
I found cheapish capacitors, and resistors can't be difficult, but no coils at all.
The bookshelf Celestion F15, floorstander F20 and twin-bass F30 seem to use a similar 5" polycone and an allegedly "grainy" 19mm titanium tweeter in different layouts and cabinets.
I have a UNI-T UT70A multimeter meter which can measure capacitors and the usually unmarked coils. This is useful to see what is salvageable in old stuff.
Crossovers for 5" usually aren't rocket science.
Vifa PL14WJ-
Here a D'Appolito style, but the conversion is rapid to an MT. I would think 1.8mH and 6.8uF on an 8 ohm bass. And adjust tweeter level. I always find a zobel around 7.5R and 0.68uF on a metal tweeter helps too. So I'm thinking you should do some measuring (driver resistance!) and inspection of what you have here. Tinkering with an existing design is always a fun thing to do.
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Thanks guys. I have taken what you've said, done a very little playing about with Boxsim, and tried to design a WWMT 3-way. I must say, I'm as uncomfortable in 3-way territory as I thought I'd be. However, I've used a lot of what Steve has said about the SEAS classic, and taken the advice of Lojzek, and then used a similar box design as my last one.
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this?
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Cost of things in SA is beyond insane. The problem is that there is no market for anything, so no one has money, so prices go up, so there is less market, etc. And the government is the source of the economic collapse that I believe is happening at the moment. Maybe I'll wait until I'm not South African anymore before I get speakers...
Here's a quick comparison (I don't have knowledge of the shops in UK).
B&W 683 S2 in UK: GBP1150 (ZAR18100) SA: ZAR22000
MA Bronze 5 in UK: GBP550 (ZAR8700) SA: ZAR12400
That's the cheapest I can find here, and only online with no chance of auditioning first. For speakers, I don't believe in going to a shop to audition, and then buying them a little cheaper online. At the shop where I can actually compare, it's roughly ZAR2000 more per each of the examples.
Here's another example: A BMW 320d costs GBP31000 in UK (ZAR490000), and the same car in SA costs ZAR560000. And BMW's are built/assembled down the road from where I live. In addition, my salary in USA would be on average about USD80000 (very low estimate for what I do), while in SA it's ZAR500000 (USD40000) (this is roughly what my position pays, not what I earn, but not far off).
Anyway, that's just a rant. I'm sick of the cost of things in SA.
When it comes to these Visaton speakers, they cost literally double here in SA.
B&W 683 S2 in UK: GBP1150 (ZAR18100) SA: ZAR22000
MA Bronze 5 in UK: GBP550 (ZAR8700) SA: ZAR12400
That's the cheapest I can find here, and only online with no chance of auditioning first. For speakers, I don't believe in going to a shop to audition, and then buying them a little cheaper online. At the shop where I can actually compare, it's roughly ZAR2000 more per each of the examples.
Here's another example: A BMW 320d costs GBP31000 in UK (ZAR490000), and the same car in SA costs ZAR560000. And BMW's are built/assembled down the road from where I live. In addition, my salary in USA would be on average about USD80000 (very low estimate for what I do), while in SA it's ZAR500000 (USD40000) (this is roughly what my position pays, not what I earn, but not far off).
Anyway, that's just a rant. I'm sick of the cost of things in SA.
When it comes to these Visaton speakers, they cost literally double here in SA.
TBH, Marc, most people pay about 60% extra in duties and import costs. It's the same in Canada and Australia, even the UK for US imports, AFAIK.
What you've been modelling looks quite a lot like the Alto IIIC:
ALTO III C
I was looking at the Alto II:
ALTO II
https://boxsim-db.de/alto-ii/
Even this is fraught with difficulty. You seem to have only the W170S-8 (and W130S-8) available, and that won't work with the Alto II crossover which seems to be available at your end.
Your F20 speakers are actually part of a home cinema set. They match a Celestion S80 subwoofer. It wouldn't be outrageous to see if you could pick up some F15 bookshelves and stack them on your F20. Poor Man's MTM!
I was reading Michael Chua last night. He's a helpful member here. He really likes this Pioneer FH-X731BT car CD, which does all sorts of things like active filtering:
Pioneer FH-X731BT Car Receiver for Home – Loudspeakers & Amps
He has fearlessly lashed it up with a 12V SMPS power supply to get it working at home. But a bit of a bargain for what it does. No need to build crossovers, you see. Of course, people use Class D amps and active filtering units these days too.
I'm still waiting to hear from you about coil availability and what's inside your F20 for further ideas.
What you've been modelling looks quite a lot like the Alto IIIC:
ALTO III C
I was looking at the Alto II:
ALTO II
https://boxsim-db.de/alto-ii/
Even this is fraught with difficulty. You seem to have only the W170S-8 (and W130S-8) available, and that won't work with the Alto II crossover which seems to be available at your end.
Your F20 speakers are actually part of a home cinema set. They match a Celestion S80 subwoofer. It wouldn't be outrageous to see if you could pick up some F15 bookshelves and stack them on your F20. Poor Man's MTM!
I was reading Michael Chua last night. He's a helpful member here. He really likes this Pioneer FH-X731BT car CD, which does all sorts of things like active filtering:
Pioneer FH-X731BT Car Receiver for Home – Loudspeakers & Amps
He has fearlessly lashed it up with a 12V SMPS power supply to get it working at home. But a bit of a bargain for what it does. No need to build crossovers, you see. Of course, people use Class D amps and active filtering units these days too.
I'm still waiting to hear from you about coil availability and what's inside your F20 for further ideas.
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