One nice thing, compared to a normal driver, is the top and bottom halves move in the opposite direction so you get mechanical force cancellation.
About whether these guys are "for real," the principles have been in the industry a long time. And they have enough money behind them that they just bought DST (Vifa, Peerless, Skanspeak) -- presumably it was cheaper to buy manufacturing facilities than to build them.
About whether these guys are "for real," the principles have been in the industry a long time. And they have enough money behind them that they just bought DST (Vifa, Peerless, Skanspeak) -- presumably it was cheaper to buy manufacturing facilities than to build them.
I can see two possible problems with this concept:
The rods that transfers the force from the motor to the diaphragms has to pass through the diaphragms driven from the motor on the other side of the tube without friction that can cause rubbing noises. If the hole for the rod is too large, there will be problems with air leakage that can cause whistling sounds. This was also mentioned by Unruh and True in their AES paper (Preprint # 6250).
The usable bandwidth will be limited by the cavity resonance that will occur in the volumes between the diaphragms. In the mentioned paper there is some measurements of prototype speakers.
The first graph shows a 10 dB peak at 300 Hz, followed by a 20 dB dip at 500 Hz. In the paper they state that this is caused by diaphragm break-up.
I think it's a cavity resonance. An impedance plot would clarify the cause. A break-up of this magnitude would be reflected very clearly in an impedance plot.
The second prototype shows improved performance. The response is flat to 400Hz, followed by a 5 dB dip at 500 Hz and a 12 dB dip at 900 Hz. My guess is that the cavities are smaller because of reduced distance between diaphragms. This would bring the response variations to higher frequencies.
It will be interesting to see measurements of the final product.
Bjorn
The rods that transfers the force from the motor to the diaphragms has to pass through the diaphragms driven from the motor on the other side of the tube without friction that can cause rubbing noises. If the hole for the rod is too large, there will be problems with air leakage that can cause whistling sounds. This was also mentioned by Unruh and True in their AES paper (Preprint # 6250).
The usable bandwidth will be limited by the cavity resonance that will occur in the volumes between the diaphragms. In the mentioned paper there is some measurements of prototype speakers.
The first graph shows a 10 dB peak at 300 Hz, followed by a 20 dB dip at 500 Hz. In the paper they state that this is caused by diaphragm break-up.
I think it's a cavity resonance. An impedance plot would clarify the cause. A break-up of this magnitude would be reflected very clearly in an impedance plot.
The second prototype shows improved performance. The response is flat to 400Hz, followed by a 5 dB dip at 500 Hz and a 12 dB dip at 900 Hz. My guess is that the cavities are smaller because of reduced distance between diaphragms. This would bring the response variations to higher frequencies.
It will be interesting to see measurements of the final product.
Bjorn
It is even much closer to Heil than you suggested:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/78243.html
Regards
Charles
Tymphany LAT = Heil Transar
Guys,
From what I can see the LAT is rip off Dr. Oskar Heil Transar transducer. If you doubt it just check the US Patent office Patent #4,039,044 (Aug 2 1977. filed in 1976) and #4,107,479
Unless I miss or do not understand something, it looks like once again that some people think their invent something new already existing
Check the drawings and text of the patent!
Reminds me of Elac claiming the Jet and the Pi transducer... Yep you guessed right, they are patented by Oskar Heil in 1972 (#3,636,278).
Why can't people do simple search and read that bogs my mind. This comment is addressed to the Patent office who can't even realised they already gave a patent fro the invention and the people in the companies who apply for those patent!
Never the less I am looking fwd hearing this modern embodyment of Dr. Heil Transar.
Cheers,
cdfr
Guys,
From what I can see the LAT is rip off Dr. Oskar Heil Transar transducer. If you doubt it just check the US Patent office Patent #4,039,044 (Aug 2 1977. filed in 1976) and #4,107,479
Unless I miss or do not understand something, it looks like once again that some people think their invent something new already existing
Check the drawings and text of the patent!
Reminds me of Elac claiming the Jet and the Pi transducer... Yep you guessed right, they are patented by Oskar Heil in 1972 (#3,636,278).
Why can't people do simple search and read that bogs my mind. This comment is addressed to the Patent office who can't even realised they already gave a patent fro the invention and the people in the companies who apply for those patent!
Never the less I am looking fwd hearing this modern embodyment of Dr. Heil Transar.
Cheers,
cdfr
LAT-ent Curiosity:
I was intrigued by the LAT, so much so, that I purchased some 6" buyout drivers and built a mockup...a working prototype.
Now, previous posts in this thread have (correctly) shown how the LAT works.
So, I built a baffle that emulates what you've seen.
Here's how I did it:
I glued six, 6" woofers back-to-back, and mounted the paired woofers 2" apart...then built the complex "LAT" baffle up on an MDF frame, with standard fibreglass/polyester resin moulded laminating techniques.
I threw a first-order 6KHz passive crossover between my LAT kluge and a line of eight tweeters, then
decided to mount the baffle in a sealed box, made from some leftover scraps of 1/2" MDF.
I've no pictures to post, and trust me, that's a GOOD thing!
Sorry, no measurement capability either, so no graphs will be posted either.
Anyway, hooked up, I was surprised to find that the ugly thing was keeping up with my Orion on the other channel...sound-quality wise.
In fact, it was louder than the Orion.
Well, duh! I'd made a line-source out of this project, right?
Now, it's actually sitting atop the television pulling center-channel duty in my evolving home theatre.
Ugly as it is -I should have taken more pains to make the thing look decent- it does a fantastic job.
Very clear mids, very clean mid-bass too.
The highs are what you'd expect from a line source -clear and unstrained.
Perfect for what I'm using it for.
OK, it's a lot bulkier than an actual LAT driver array, due to the diaphragms being driven by their own motor, whereas the LAT uses only two motors to drive all the diaphragms.
So, the benefits I've found with this:
-very low distortion, comparable to my Orions.
-compact for what is, in effect, a line array.
-and with the motors (magnets) glued back-to-back, stray magnetism is minimised.
And, the drawbacks:
-I'm an impatient craftsman...um, better make that,"craftsman" -in quotation marks.
This should look as good as it sounds!
-The real LAT is much lighter than my kluge, with only two motors.
Finally, I'm building some real speakers with what I've learned from building the prototype.
I like the buyout drivers in the prototype, so they'll use the same 6" buyout midwoof drivers and the same mylar Onkyo tweets.
It takes me a long time to do good work, so these new LAT clone mains will be a while before they're finished.
Is LAT a legitimate technology?
I say, yes, yes it is, based on my successful experiment.
I was intrigued by the LAT, so much so, that I purchased some 6" buyout drivers and built a mockup...a working prototype.
Now, previous posts in this thread have (correctly) shown how the LAT works.
So, I built a baffle that emulates what you've seen.
Here's how I did it:
I glued six, 6" woofers back-to-back, and mounted the paired woofers 2" apart...then built the complex "LAT" baffle up on an MDF frame, with standard fibreglass/polyester resin moulded laminating techniques.
I threw a first-order 6KHz passive crossover between my LAT kluge and a line of eight tweeters, then
decided to mount the baffle in a sealed box, made from some leftover scraps of 1/2" MDF.
I've no pictures to post, and trust me, that's a GOOD thing!
Sorry, no measurement capability either, so no graphs will be posted either.
Anyway, hooked up, I was surprised to find that the ugly thing was keeping up with my Orion on the other channel...sound-quality wise.
In fact, it was louder than the Orion.
Well, duh! I'd made a line-source out of this project, right?
Now, it's actually sitting atop the television pulling center-channel duty in my evolving home theatre.
Ugly as it is -I should have taken more pains to make the thing look decent- it does a fantastic job.
Very clear mids, very clean mid-bass too.
The highs are what you'd expect from a line source -clear and unstrained.
Perfect for what I'm using it for.
OK, it's a lot bulkier than an actual LAT driver array, due to the diaphragms being driven by their own motor, whereas the LAT uses only two motors to drive all the diaphragms.
So, the benefits I've found with this:
-very low distortion, comparable to my Orions.
-compact for what is, in effect, a line array.
-and with the motors (magnets) glued back-to-back, stray magnetism is minimised.
And, the drawbacks:
-I'm an impatient craftsman...um, better make that,"craftsman" -in quotation marks.
This should look as good as it sounds!
-The real LAT is much lighter than my kluge, with only two motors.
Finally, I'm building some real speakers with what I've learned from building the prototype.
I like the buyout drivers in the prototype, so they'll use the same 6" buyout midwoof drivers and the same mylar Onkyo tweets.
It takes me a long time to do good work, so these new LAT clone mains will be a while before they're finished.
Is LAT a legitimate technology?
I say, yes, yes it is, based on my successful experiment.
It appears that ESS is still producing the Transars, looks like only for export though. Or am I wrong?
http://www.audiophile.it/uk/prodotti/LSTNGProdotti_essaudio.asp#
http://www.audiophile.it/uk/prodotti/LSTNGProdotti_essaudio.asp#
Attachments
I bought an Alpine PLV-7 whic uses the 7 inch woofers in a bandpass box. It has a 500watt amp. The box really has NO vibrations. But that really doesnt make me want to buy the system. I wanted it cause it promised to sound like 2 12's in a very small foot print. This is my experience with the LAT system sold by Alpine.
I bought this unit New in the box for $500. It arrived and I connected it to my all Alpine system in my Mazda 3. In just under 24 hours of listening to it the amp literally exploded! Im not saying it popped or burnt up. Im saying it made a loud noise and spark, fire and smoke came out of the unit. I got scared that my car was about to be toast. Now keep in mind I been installing car audio for almost 15 years so I know how to hook up these units since there is nothing speacial about the connections.
While it did work it was very loud. But it was loud only at certain frequencies between about 35hz to 50hz. And I used 6db all the way to 24db of crossover cutoff using my Alpine Headunits crossovers. I played all kinds of music. Heavy bass to classical. It all sounded like crap. At half volume it sounded like speakers were bottoming out and giving up. It was hard to tell though because it also sounded like very loud port noise. To me, it sounded like both. It sounded like the speakers inside the box was about to die and also the port wasnt made properly and had way to much port noise. A bandpass box actually hides allot of speaker distortion. So if I was hearing speaker distortion it had to be a dump load. I read that the Xmax is just 8mm for one speaker cone. So the amp must have had an infrasonic filter because it had NO output below about 35Hz. And usually a Bandpass box will limit excursion a good bit depending on its tuned frequency. I used bass tones to test it. Above 50 hz and you get this really loud buzzing noise that had to be the speaker cones cause wind dont make noise like that out of a port. It sounded just like a speaker that was put in the wrong box size and pushed too hard. The transients were horrible. Digital amps are known to be sluggish and have allot of THD. This thing was so sluggish that it was just sickening. So basically when it did work it sounded like do-do. Since I fix computers and work on electronics for a living I took out the 500 watt amp to see if I could fix it. What I found was a large area of black, burnt silicone from the explosion. There was literally holes in the powersupply and amplifier boards. Since the boards use (SMT )SURFACE MOUNT TECHNOLOGY there is no way to fix it. So I tried to find a new amp. The amplifier is an Ice500a. Looking this up in Google found an amp with new technology as well. Google it. But really its just as much a POS as any cheap amp cause it didnt last more than 24hours. I decided to take the Lat out and get a good look at it with my eyes and my ohm meter. I will be making a better box for it and using a better amp. Its har to fidn an amp that will handle a 3 ohm mono loud and have a infrasonic filter that isnt Class D or some other digital crap. I measured each large magnet as 6 ohms or just under. The company website says the Ice500a will do 500watts at 2.7ohms so I am guessing that is what the speakers are meaured at in parrallel. I have the LAt and box sitting in my room waiting for a better amp. I need suggestion on a box and a amp.
I bought this unit New in the box for $500. It arrived and I connected it to my all Alpine system in my Mazda 3. In just under 24 hours of listening to it the amp literally exploded! Im not saying it popped or burnt up. Im saying it made a loud noise and spark, fire and smoke came out of the unit. I got scared that my car was about to be toast. Now keep in mind I been installing car audio for almost 15 years so I know how to hook up these units since there is nothing speacial about the connections.
While it did work it was very loud. But it was loud only at certain frequencies between about 35hz to 50hz. And I used 6db all the way to 24db of crossover cutoff using my Alpine Headunits crossovers. I played all kinds of music. Heavy bass to classical. It all sounded like crap. At half volume it sounded like speakers were bottoming out and giving up. It was hard to tell though because it also sounded like very loud port noise. To me, it sounded like both. It sounded like the speakers inside the box was about to die and also the port wasnt made properly and had way to much port noise. A bandpass box actually hides allot of speaker distortion. So if I was hearing speaker distortion it had to be a dump load. I read that the Xmax is just 8mm for one speaker cone. So the amp must have had an infrasonic filter because it had NO output below about 35Hz. And usually a Bandpass box will limit excursion a good bit depending on its tuned frequency. I used bass tones to test it. Above 50 hz and you get this really loud buzzing noise that had to be the speaker cones cause wind dont make noise like that out of a port. It sounded just like a speaker that was put in the wrong box size and pushed too hard. The transients were horrible. Digital amps are known to be sluggish and have allot of THD. This thing was so sluggish that it was just sickening. So basically when it did work it sounded like do-do. Since I fix computers and work on electronics for a living I took out the 500 watt amp to see if I could fix it. What I found was a large area of black, burnt silicone from the explosion. There was literally holes in the powersupply and amplifier boards. Since the boards use (SMT )SURFACE MOUNT TECHNOLOGY there is no way to fix it. So I tried to find a new amp. The amplifier is an Ice500a. Looking this up in Google found an amp with new technology as well. Google it. But really its just as much a POS as any cheap amp cause it didnt last more than 24hours. I decided to take the Lat out and get a good look at it with my eyes and my ohm meter. I will be making a better box for it and using a better amp. Its har to fidn an amp that will handle a 3 ohm mono loud and have a infrasonic filter that isnt Class D or some other digital crap. I measured each large magnet as 6 ohms or just under. The company website says the Ice500a will do 500watts at 2.7ohms so I am guessing that is what the speakers are meaured at in parrallel. I have the LAt and box sitting in my room waiting for a better amp. I need suggestion on a box and a amp.
I`m getting one and gonna make a sub out of it with a 250r amp which gives 360watts at 4 ohms and be connectinting the lat that compares to 2x10 inches.keep you posted....the one i`m getting has a aluminum frame but i was told they were gonna be made of plastic for the production.beautifully crafted,we are gonna try it in a 3cubic foot ported enclosure.
keep you posted
keep you posted
Where did you buy one and for how much? Just curious.
http://www.solen.ca/v1/
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=175&products_id=8288
http://www.solen.ca/v1/
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=175&products_id=8288
cdfr, how well do your AMTs play below 500hz? My guess is not that well. I mean come on, why patent a tweeter if woofers precluded them by decades. Or rather, how can you argue that a tweeter and a woofer are the same thing? Patents are all about protecting intellectual rights. In free market competition, a person's intellectual property may appear to be very similar to another's yet the differences may be very valuable to the novelty and success of the property. When applying for a patent the applicant must be very specific about what makes their product unique and patentable. In the case of the AMT tweeter versus the LAT woofer, it isn't hard to find those specifics.
I am interested in these woofers for their vibration canceling. I worry though about all that suspension.
oh yeah, waaaayyy too many mounting holes especially for a woofer with low vibration. Of course if I use this woofer ill use brass screws...
Also, does the model 250 have a traditional motor or a rotating motor/lever linkage deal? From the PDF it looks to be the latter...
I am interested in these woofers for their vibration canceling. I worry though about all that suspension.
oh yeah, waaaayyy too many mounting holes especially for a woofer with low vibration. Of course if I use this woofer ill use brass screws...
Also, does the model 250 have a traditional motor or a rotating motor/lever linkage deal? From the PDF it looks to be the latter...
LAT
So the real question remains....does it produce high quality bass? It seems that if it did some OEM's would have been using it by now since it has been out a while. I know Alpine is using it for car audio, but the only comments I can find on it are usually "hits really hard" or "not enough boom on Tupac"....
Anyone use this successfully in a home audio application? Tymphany terms it a lifestyle product on their site which seems to indicate form over function....
So the real question remains....does it produce high quality bass? It seems that if it did some OEM's would have been using it by now since it has been out a while. I know Alpine is using it for car audio, but the only comments I can find on it are usually "hits really hard" or "not enough boom on Tupac"....
Anyone use this successfully in a home audio application? Tymphany terms it a lifestyle product on their site which seems to indicate form over function....
Re: LAT
I disagree.
The original claim was that the LAT can produce bass in small enclusures. And since the TSPs follow the same physical laws as cone drivers, the real question is: Does it produce reasonable bass in incorrectly small enclosures?
Tymphany NEVER would have got so much investor´s money fur just another highend toy.
sbrtoy said:
I disagree.
The original claim was that the LAT can produce bass in small enclusures. And since the TSPs follow the same physical laws as cone drivers, the real question is: Does it produce reasonable bass in incorrectly small enclosures?
Tymphany NEVER would have got so much investor´s money fur just another highend toy.
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