Thanx Norman.
There is actually 4 channels
or 3, depending on whether or not I choose to bridge one of the amps.
Yes, MS is for Mid/Side. You can also useful found infos when digging in some threads that you can have already seen like stereo from a single speaker, making 3 channels out of stereo signal, .
Elias uses side firing on his prototypes, but this is not a mandatory option of the concept. After trying some variations around the idea, I think it's main advantage is a more robust imaging with a resulting greater naturalness. But there is no free lunch, what can be win on one side can be loosed on the other. I think of the competition precision vs spaciousness for instance.
Your own approach is different as you will use Race and four channels of amps, and then a lot of possible combinations for mapping your 52 drivers. I was thinking of 5 rows when visualizing an eventual center channel, but my bad, you can conveniently use a group of drivers for this purpose ( as the 5 ones in the middle on 2 rows). I think you can try it in a second phase to see if this has a positive effect or not. The fact is that this trick allows a great control of the depth, can be useful.
You had also the good idea of using rows of 13 drivers, this will make easier a further power tapering with a leading center driver.
Sorry if I am not very clear, but there is many to say and to expect from your thing.
Elias uses side firing on his prototypes, but this is not a mandatory option of the concept. After trying some variations around the idea, I think it's main advantage is a more robust imaging with a resulting greater naturalness. But there is no free lunch, what can be win on one side can be loosed on the other. I think of the competition precision vs spaciousness for instance.
Your own approach is different as you will use Race and four channels of amps, and then a lot of possible combinations for mapping your 52 drivers. I was thinking of 5 rows when visualizing an eventual center channel, but my bad, you can conveniently use a group of drivers for this purpose ( as the 5 ones in the middle on 2 rows). I think you can try it in a second phase to see if this has a positive effect or not. The fact is that this trick allows a great control of the depth, can be useful.
You had also the good idea of using rows of 13 drivers, this will make easier a further power tapering with a leading center driver.
Sorry if I am not very clear, but there is many to say and to expect from your thing.
Thanx for your interest Radugazon!
I've read these threads and looked into trinaural, I've spent countless hours as I think we all have, to solve the center imaging problem inherent in stereophonics. Certainly, they do not solve the comb filtering problem.
These proposals I think are better than stereo in that they give a better center image with a diffused sound field to the r+l, which I think is more pleasing and natural.
I've spent even more countless hours trying to solve the problem of the issue with pinna cues limited to the center with ambiophonics, from having side firing horns and relying on reflections from the side walls to using head phones or near field monitors for high frequencies like the linkwitz Watson.
But as I experimented with RACE settings and played around with speaker angle, the best experience I've had was to set RACE for only a 60 degree spread (like stereo) using no lowpass on RACE and using the reflections on the back wall to mimic a rear ambiopole. This seams to push the high frequencies further out.
Setting RACE for only 60 degree spread does 2 things......
It greatly reduces artifacts at high frequencies and it gives the presentation that the recording engineer intended.
If the recording uses phasing to extend imaging beyond 60 degrees for example Roger Water's (amused to death) album, it will extend like it does with stereo. If the recording is conventional, the image stays within 60 degrees.
The problem that is fixed is the imaging between those 60 degrees. Things pan smoothly and depth is representative of what the mic's pick up. There is no longer a hazy blob of confusion due to comb filtering.
I do think linkwitz (Watson) is an interesting proposition if used in conjunction with RACE, I've been thinking about this a lot.
We could sum r+l+c in some sort of matrix using the ambiopole as center with 2 near field monitors low passing RACE at say 5 kHz.
But this will still induce comb filtering.
Maybe (Watson) style with the near fields in opposite phase for XTC....they would have to be extremely high directivity, but that wouldn't be hard at those frequencies.
I've read these threads and looked into trinaural, I've spent countless hours as I think we all have, to solve the center imaging problem inherent in stereophonics. Certainly, they do not solve the comb filtering problem.
These proposals I think are better than stereo in that they give a better center image with a diffused sound field to the r+l, which I think is more pleasing and natural.
I've spent even more countless hours trying to solve the problem of the issue with pinna cues limited to the center with ambiophonics, from having side firing horns and relying on reflections from the side walls to using head phones or near field monitors for high frequencies like the linkwitz Watson.
But as I experimented with RACE settings and played around with speaker angle, the best experience I've had was to set RACE for only a 60 degree spread (like stereo) using no lowpass on RACE and using the reflections on the back wall to mimic a rear ambiopole. This seams to push the high frequencies further out.
Setting RACE for only 60 degree spread does 2 things......
It greatly reduces artifacts at high frequencies and it gives the presentation that the recording engineer intended.
If the recording uses phasing to extend imaging beyond 60 degrees for example Roger Water's (amused to death) album, it will extend like it does with stereo. If the recording is conventional, the image stays within 60 degrees.
The problem that is fixed is the imaging between those 60 degrees. Things pan smoothly and depth is representative of what the mic's pick up. There is no longer a hazy blob of confusion due to comb filtering.
I do think linkwitz (Watson) is an interesting proposition if used in conjunction with RACE, I've been thinking about this a lot.
We could sum r+l+c in some sort of matrix using the ambiopole as center with 2 near field monitors low passing RACE at say 5 kHz.
But this will still induce comb filtering.
Maybe (Watson) style with the near fields in opposite phase for XTC....they would have to be extremely high directivity, but that wouldn't be hard at those frequencies.
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Well, Norman......
You can purchase my stuff in a year or so.
Ambiophonic and omni-directional loudspeakers - Home
You can purchase my stuff in a year or so.
Ambiophonic and omni-directional loudspeakers - Home
any new news here ?
here is an ambiophonics using phy drivers and a divider.
found here (in French)
http://arolio.free.fr/hifi/hifi4.html
Norman
here is an ambiophonics using phy drivers and a divider.
found here (in French)
http://arolio.free.fr/hifi/hifi4.html
Norman
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Hey Norman.....yeah, I still check this thread everyday.
I guess there's nothing left to talk about?
I don't want to hog the thread with news of my speaker project, but its really something special. I had to use the mini dsp after all.
Also I built a little ambio box for my oled Samsung 7.7 tablet.
I'm using the Dayton SR100 full rangers.
Watching movies on an oled screen with ambiophonics is awesome!
Oh, I also built an H frame sub using the Dayton DCS450 18"
And the O audio 500w bash amp. My listening room is to small to get down to 20Hz but it hits hard at 40Hz.
Well, that's what I've been up to, anybody else got anything to report?
I guess there's nothing left to talk about?
I don't want to hog the thread with news of my speaker project, but its really something special. I had to use the mini dsp after all.
Also I built a little ambio box for my oled Samsung 7.7 tablet.
I'm using the Dayton SR100 full rangers.
Watching movies on an oled screen with ambiophonics is awesome!
Oh, I also built an H frame sub using the Dayton DCS450 18"
And the O audio 500w bash amp. My listening room is to small to get down to 20Hz but it hits hard at 40Hz.
Well, that's what I've been up to, anybody else got anything to report?
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Oh, Norman, I've been messing around with the headphone thing we were talking about a few months ago.
I've come to the conclusion that it is not possible to get the soundstage up front. I've tried placing the 2 inchers on the cheekbone pointing every which way. The sound is still in the head. I'm figuring the sound waves need to reflect off the side of the face in order to be externalized and coming from the front.
It only worked when I placed the drivers right at the nose. It sounded really amazing!
But my friend walked in on me doing this, and asked me if I was listening to music with my eyeballs
I actually pondered the entire day whether or not I should build some kind of visor that went around the head and ears like an HMD! I can only imagine what that would look like!
A visor with the backs of drivers for eyeballs
I've come to the conclusion that it is not possible to get the soundstage up front. I've tried placing the 2 inchers on the cheekbone pointing every which way. The sound is still in the head. I'm figuring the sound waves need to reflect off the side of the face in order to be externalized and coming from the front.
It only worked when I placed the drivers right at the nose. It sounded really amazing!
But my friend walked in on me doing this, and asked me if I was listening to music with my eyeballs
I actually pondered the entire day whether or not I should build some kind of visor that went around the head and ears like an HMD! I can only imagine what that would look like!
A visor with the backs of drivers for eyeballs
My dual w3-871s were on an open baffle with about 10" between centers. Sounded awesome about a foot away, especially the amused to death (Roger waters) with its Qsound. The crickets were way to the left in the distance. That made anyone smile who heard them, staring at the 2 drivers right in front of them. Didn't need the divider.
Too bad on the speakers, but you did learn and share !!!!
Norman
Too bad on the speakers, but you did learn and share !!!!
Norman
The patent application (Choueiri - BACCH) has now been published:
(WO2012036912)SPECTRALLY UNCOLORED OPTIMAL CROOSTALK CANCELLATION FOR AUDIO THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS
"Croostalk"..? Almost right..
Anyhow..
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/...912)&office=&sortOption=&prevFilter=&maxRec=1
It's alive! IT'S ALIVE!
I thought this thread was kaput...
How ya been David?
Croostalk! lol!
That's not a very detailed patent.
Pretty easy to get around.
I mean, will any EQ'ing of the RACE algorithm infringe?
The patent office is a joke.
They are like doctors these days....
They will grant any patent just for the fee.
Like a doctor will prescribe drugs just for the cost of the visit.
I thought this thread was kaput...
How ya been David?
Croostalk! lol!
That's not a very detailed patent.
Pretty easy to get around.
I mean, will any EQ'ing of the RACE algorithm infringe?
The patent office is a joke.
They are like doctors these days....
They will grant any patent just for the fee.
Like a doctor will prescribe drugs just for the cost of the visit.
Fine, Jason, I have been making dummy heads. Got it beat!
Not so fast! It has not been granted yet, and has two 'Y's against it.
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000016811613.pdf
You (one) can also send observations to the WIPO.