How does XTC with a small opening angle differ from stereo in your perception?
1-Solid center sounds. Stereo triangle's phantom center seems solid until you try ambio. Then it no longer does.
2- Whole range of instruments not coming from the center sound real and unfatiguing. In the stereo triangle they seem real and unfatiguing until you try ambio. Then, they don't any more.
Of course, a better configuration than ambio may come along one day and prove that ambio is still unreal, and fatiguing.
Each instrument having its one discrete channel/speaker, as was previously suggested in this thread, may be it.
How would you compare them yourself, Markus?
So was this for Ambiophonics or your barrier?
I'm currently just preparing for A/B tests with my Smyth Realiser.
When I refer to ambiophonics (ambio. for short) I am referring to left and right speakers brought very close to each other plus crosstalk cancellation, be it via a physical barrier or electronic. Fundamentally they both deliver the same tipe of experience, although I find the latter lacking in separation of highs when compared to the barrier and that is why I am not using the ambio box now.
When I tried to explain how I perceive ambio. to be better than the stereo triangle I said that instruments not placed in the center-no need to insist on the improvement of central sounds- sounded more real and unfatiguing: you can indeed effortlessly hear the different instruments as distinct, stable realities. I early on realized that my mind was no longer working as hard to untangle the crosstalk-induced blur and so the experience was more relaxing.
Have you ever tried Ambiophonics or the barrier method outside, simulating an anechoic environment?
Let's not forget that in the most basic form Ambiophonics cancels the cross talk, which allows realistic imaging, but it does not deliver realistic ambiance or spaciousness without the surround channels and speakers, no more than the room can support. By damping the room without adding rear speakers is a dead end.
Going outside with the barrier would be an experiment but that's all. Well, neighbours could have something out of the rutine that's for sure
- Elias
Going outside with the barrier would be an experiment but that's all. Well, neighbours could have something out of the rutine that's for sure
- Elias
This is exactly what I was thinking when you mentioned that the physical barrier extended treble out to the sides.
I dont know how I feel about using the side walls to widen the soundstage.
I have read through the stereolith thread and however intriguing, I'm still skeptical. I would think that it messes with time alignment and phase coherence? Although, it would provide even in room power response across the entire audio spectrum, IE no baffle step correction.
I think we need as little room influence as possible for ambiophonics, even more so than conventional stereo, because remember, we have both channels being produced from each speaker. There is much more of a chance of becoming a phasey nightmare when room reflections influence the sound.
I notice this messy sound coming from behind me with my bookshelf speakers when using R.A.C.E. But much less so with the dipoles.
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It could serve as a reference point to determine what the baseline performance is and what is added by the room.
anyone tryed placing speakers like headphones (one on each side of the head) ?
i´ve done that on the bead (1,5 meter apart) and i was amazed on how it sound , much better than headphones or placing the speakers in front of you , almost feels like being on stage with the performer and not "inside your head feeling" you get with headphones
i´ve done that on the bead (1,5 meter apart) and i was amazed on how it sound , much better than headphones or placing the speakers in front of you , almost feels like being on stage with the performer and not "inside your head feeling" you get with headphones
It has been mentioned by the authors that there can be perceivable artificial 'ringing' with RACE, being recursive by nature, especially if room is not totally damped. The cross talk is cancelled by the signals emitted by RACE at the listening position only, every other direction in space there are RACE signals present not belonging to the recording, and if reflected by the room they can be perceived at the listening position also.
Of course the barrier has no such issues.
- Elias
You have reinvented the Beveridge configuration
Try placing the speakers against the side walls if your room allows.
- Elias
You have reinvented the Beveridge configuration
Try placing the speakers against the side walls if your room allows.
- Elias
Speakers placed 90° to the sides is Beveridge? I always thought this is Beveridge configuration:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It's a standard stereo triangle with a different reflection pattern.
If you look at Ralph's website and his setup he is using dipole planers with a restricted horizontal pattern which minimizes reflections from the sidewalls (although he uses effects speakers from the side, which IMO is different).
I think you observation is correct.
Alright you guys, I have been working on a design for an ambiopole on my vector drawing program, I will post the details and the drawing tonight when I get home from work. I've been working on this for a long time, I'm just about ready for the build. It's a culmination of all I've learned through the years. The build will cost me 1500 bucks so i hope i get it right! I'll be home in 7 hours, I got to go right now. Stay tuned
Ok, this is the ambiopole.
Open baffle dipole.
(click on above picture for enlargement)
It's a focussed array of 100 vifa drivers that Zaph has recently tested.
The outside lines are the ones that will be using R.A.C.E.
They will be wire in series parallel 6 groups of 3 to maintain a 4 ohm impedance. There are 18 of them.
High passed at 200 Hz 1st order, no high pass on R.A.C.E.
The remaining 4 rows will be split in two for right left, and will be wired in series parallel 8 groups of 4, also for 4 ohm impedance.
There are 32 of them x2
low passed at 200 Hz 1st order.
the array has an SD of over 4 alpha's with an xmax of 2.5 mm.
There are 2 two way Dayton amps at the base. 75 watts x2 in a 4 ohm load.
I will be using the minidsp-minidigi stack along with the miniambio.
I'm going to eq for a Linkwitz-Riley 4th order slope at 40 hz for easy integration with a subwoofer.
This of course will not be a cocktail party speaker, but a 1 person reference system.
Open baffle dipole.
(click on above picture for enlargement)
It's a focussed array of 100 vifa drivers that Zaph has recently tested.
The outside lines are the ones that will be using R.A.C.E.
They will be wire in series parallel 6 groups of 3 to maintain a 4 ohm impedance. There are 18 of them.
High passed at 200 Hz 1st order, no high pass on R.A.C.E.
The remaining 4 rows will be split in two for right left, and will be wired in series parallel 8 groups of 4, also for 4 ohm impedance.
There are 32 of them x2
low passed at 200 Hz 1st order.
the array has an SD of over 4 alpha's with an xmax of 2.5 mm.
There are 2 two way Dayton amps at the base. 75 watts x2 in a 4 ohm load.
I will be using the minidsp-minidigi stack along with the miniambio.
I'm going to eq for a Linkwitz-Riley 4th order slope at 40 hz for easy integration with a subwoofer.
This of course will not be a cocktail party speaker, but a 1 person reference system.
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I'd go with the $10-$15 tc9 driver. Is that the one ? copper cap on pole piece? The paper version of the ids25's fiberglass coned driver ? Had I someone to build one, I'd go for a 6' tall focused array and never look back. Seeing my avatar, I'd need at least the same area as a 12" driver per side.
Focused arrays are AWESOME !!!!!!!
You eventually get used to standing up and feeling disoriented (getting out of the sweet spot while listening). The combing makes you lose so much high end, your brain freaks out thinking that something is wrong. The music sounds instantly like coming down with a head cold, or it sounds like you are underwater when you arn't.
I look forward to your results.
Norman
Focused arrays are AWESOME !!!!!!!
You eventually get used to standing up and feeling disoriented (getting out of the sweet spot while listening). The combing makes you lose so much high end, your brain freaks out thinking that something is wrong. The music sounds instantly like coming down with a head cold, or it sounds like you are underwater when you arn't.
I look forward to your results.
Norman
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