Dear Norman,
Far out, you are. The further, the better. Am really glad. I really love being enlightened by real freaks like you especially since I truly learn from your experiences. I understand your perspective by 100%. Me too, I believe Stereo is crap (and participate at all the second wife-runaway jokes told at the time Stereo was invented) , and when I tried Ambio first time, I realized it has the advantages of mono while producing an extremely wide stage compared to the spot sound of mono. I was out of my mind, jumping and screaming and if Ralph Glasgal would have been around, I think he would have met the same fate as Jean-Baptiste Grenouille in the book written by Patrick Süsskind (I'm exaggerating). Equalizers and stuff like that is a real joke just as digital room treatment and speaker correction for me. However I never tried a one way driver. Will do soon though.
Anyway, I guess I would miss the deep, dark and dry bass of my corner horn and the light whisper of my audaphon RP's. Vocals are not everything for me. Is there anyway to use the speakers above without letting the sound quality suffer?
You didn't really make clear if you have accepted Ambiophonics and if you prefer it to mono.
You certainly must be using a grammophone not a CD-Player, am I right? Since I am madly in love with Horn systems, I never use any other kind of speakers. What do you think of the sound of a horn, or in your case a full range horn? (You know, several horns stuffed into each other) You said you were using a vented speaker, do you not like horns? They are not made for volume only. And how about room treatment, are you using any?
Forgive me for asking a personal question: what kind of music exactly do you listen to? Jazz, Classic or something more modern?
It's an honour,
Sincerely,
Wolfgang
Far out, you are. The further, the better. Am really glad. I really love being enlightened by real freaks like you especially since I truly learn from your experiences. I understand your perspective by 100%. Me too, I believe Stereo is crap (and participate at all the second wife-runaway jokes told at the time Stereo was invented) , and when I tried Ambio first time, I realized it has the advantages of mono while producing an extremely wide stage compared to the spot sound of mono. I was out of my mind, jumping and screaming and if Ralph Glasgal would have been around, I think he would have met the same fate as Jean-Baptiste Grenouille in the book written by Patrick Süsskind (I'm exaggerating). Equalizers and stuff like that is a real joke just as digital room treatment and speaker correction for me. However I never tried a one way driver. Will do soon though.
Anyway, I guess I would miss the deep, dark and dry bass of my corner horn and the light whisper of my audaphon RP's. Vocals are not everything for me. Is there anyway to use the speakers above without letting the sound quality suffer?
You didn't really make clear if you have accepted Ambiophonics and if you prefer it to mono.
You certainly must be using a grammophone not a CD-Player, am I right? Since I am madly in love with Horn systems, I never use any other kind of speakers. What do you think of the sound of a horn, or in your case a full range horn? (You know, several horns stuffed into each other) You said you were using a vented speaker, do you not like horns? They are not made for volume only. And how about room treatment, are you using any?
Forgive me for asking a personal question: what kind of music exactly do you listen to? Jazz, Classic or something more modern?
It's an honour,
Sincerely,
Wolfgang
Thanks Azul.
Good to hear there are other extremists out there, passionate about this stuff !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many roads to your audio goal !!!!!!
Otherwise all women kiss the same and all burgers taste the same.
The lucky ones are the people who don't care !!!!!!!!
Yup, ambiophonics (the divider) works the best if you can tolerate the divider.
I dare say it is better than headphones to me.
I like the sound field in front of me, not in my head.
Otherwise, a single speaker is fine for me.
I don't need phasing trickery to make me happy.
And most surround makes me run for the door !!!!!!!!!
The best surround you should not know it is there untill you turn it off.
I thought that the old Dolby surround (mono) with dipoles as rears sounded the best that I've ever heard, it felt like you were underwater or in a city, unlike feeling sound is being fired at you with current stereo surround. Wow bullets left and right behind me, it doesn't trick me into feeling I'm in a forest.
With Ambiophonics, the voice is right in front of you, strong and clear.
And stereo tricks are fun too, you can't believe the sound is coming from way over there, it can't, the speakers are directly in front of you !!!!!!!!!!
Remember, I am not saying my setup is better, mine is better for me.
It's just where I am now with my preferences, music, and critical listening changing over the past 10 years.
I have a friend who loans out his stuff to me.
He was a jbl and klipsch dealer (professional) years ago.
Klipsch was the start for him because he needs live volume levels.
I dare say the Ev hr90 is one of the best horns I've ever heard, followed by a mcm bowtie horn.
These are pa horns. Almost all horns add reflections or echo, some better than others.
Parallel walls and breaks in flare add reflections, and I think it is impossible to eliminate the length, width, and depth standing waves in a horn. Spherical is the only way to go to me.
It took me a while to realize what I was hearing (fine for P.a. but not reproduction).
Listening to "Fast and the Furious" soundtrack I said "is that a duo with him or to much reverb?"
I checked it on headphones and the echo wasn't there.
My favorite horn was my Keele W-bin (7ft2 mouth). That made kick drum sound like kick drum.
Problem was I had to be over 10' away and I wanted more under 100hz, not 250hz-100hz (corner loaded with 1 of the ports stuffed). It had better slam than my 4 x 18's, I was trying to use it from 80hz down. Now I realize that it would work well for me now doing 80-200hz very fun !!!!!!!
What do i prefer ?
I'm usually laying on the couch as is my wife and the system is 40% used for movies, so an Ambio divider is out of the question. Non ambio stereo speaker setup made the voice sound hazy and unfocused (probably due to room reflections and the comb filtering of 2 different sources with our 2 ears) after listening to ambiophonics, since then I concentrated on 1 speaker instead of the stereo 2 and never went back (7 years ago).
Room treatment ?
I used to use foam and 12" sonotube cardboard columns.
I use none now.
Cd player only, and that is also the cheapest dvd player I could find to boot.
I like movies fairly load and fun, but not loud enough that I have to raise my voice to talk to my wife in the loud parts anymore. I run off the stereo outputs on the back of the dvd player. I miss the thump that has been moved to the subwoofer channel, but music is more important than movie sound to me.
Music, I'm now branching out from rap/hip hop/dance/led zeplin/enya/pink floyd to massive attack/yo yo ma/dave brubeck/holly cole trio/Allison Kraus/julie london/windam hill recordings. I'm just getting into popular jazz and I need to spend more time on amazon to hear the old jazz like ella fitzgerald, nina simone, stuff like that. I'm enjoying the female voice more and more, along with asian drum stuff and I especially liked the "Kingdom of Heaven" soundtrack, neat combination of classical and middle east. Also I liked the dj remixed classic jazz disc, but I can't remember what it is called now. I like slow country like "whisky lullaby" by Brad Paisley and Allison Kraus. But I'm not a classical or country music fan.
I love horns, don't get me wrong.
Dynamics make stuff sound real that helps with our compressed recordings now.
It makes music fun !!!!!!!!!!!!
I just want a cleaner more transparant sound than any horn has given me so far.
My friend is a horn expert, and he loves the Ev hr90, I couldn't listen to it once I sniffed out its flaws, fun but not for me.
I like e-stats but my budget is limited.
Full range drivers are fairly inexpensive and do what I want.
And I don't want an electronic crossover to add grunge either.
A passive line level crossover is an option, but then I need multiple amplifiers (good luck with grounding loops) and a stout preamp to push the crossover. I like the receiver full range driver combination I have now, I just want more volume.
I believe for the money, the 400hz stereo lab horn would be the best in mid horn out there today, cross it 600hz-4khz at 24db Linkwitz Riley (so you can time align) using the community 2" m200a and a real piezo. Pair of 15's under that unless you use some 12's that can horn load up to 600hz, maybe the under .2 qts 12's from Paudio could work. Then slot loaded push pull 18's for under 100hz. To me, that is a hot setup without taking up too much room.
I learned much on transparancy from a pair of accoustat spectra 11's, but they wouldn't go loud enough then, so I sold them and built my push pulls. They'd ok for me now, but 5' from the front wall is an impossibility now and lack of time alignment is a deal breaker.
Then I got into time alignment and horns.
I had mucho luck with a pioneer b20 with a piezo actively crossed at 24db at 5khz, killer setup.
Then I made the ambio demonstrator.
That stupid single driver at low volumes (open baffle) sounded wonderfull, very revealing and highly intelligible so you picked up on voice inflections in movies. But any bass and the voice garbles.
That got me into full range driver phase I've been in for about 3-4 years now, trying to get bass and full range drivers without circuitry.
Since then I've strived to get more out of them (full range drivers) and am happy seeing the FAST systems now.
Problem is any circuitry removes some of the magic.
But I still need bass.
Then I looked into multiple full range drivers, I use a dual one now.
In a week or 2, I should have a 4 unit focused open backed box array using 4 of the 4" bamboo tang bands.
I have too many of the closeout 2" peerless 830983 I got from partsexpress.
On the drawing board now is either a 9 driver focused array using the peerless 2" or a 16 driver focused array using the peerless tc9.
I will get into analog when I invest in a good record cleaner and player.
Very smooth, real, and easy to listen to, I agree.
For the last while, I've been on a loudspeaker kick, I've been concentrating on that for a long while now.
Amp check, wires check, setup check, cd player check.
Once I have that settled, I'll branch into another audio thing.
I got to listen to my old pairs of vegas I sold 2 years, they sound really bad now compared to my current setup. It's good to revisit your past setups to make sure you are still going in the right direction.
Norman
Good to hear there are other extremists out there, passionate about this stuff !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many roads to your audio goal !!!!!!
Otherwise all women kiss the same and all burgers taste the same.
The lucky ones are the people who don't care !!!!!!!!
Yup, ambiophonics (the divider) works the best if you can tolerate the divider.
I dare say it is better than headphones to me.
I like the sound field in front of me, not in my head.
Otherwise, a single speaker is fine for me.
I don't need phasing trickery to make me happy.
And most surround makes me run for the door !!!!!!!!!
The best surround you should not know it is there untill you turn it off.
I thought that the old Dolby surround (mono) with dipoles as rears sounded the best that I've ever heard, it felt like you were underwater or in a city, unlike feeling sound is being fired at you with current stereo surround. Wow bullets left and right behind me, it doesn't trick me into feeling I'm in a forest.
With Ambiophonics, the voice is right in front of you, strong and clear.
And stereo tricks are fun too, you can't believe the sound is coming from way over there, it can't, the speakers are directly in front of you !!!!!!!!!!
Remember, I am not saying my setup is better, mine is better for me.
It's just where I am now with my preferences, music, and critical listening changing over the past 10 years.
I have a friend who loans out his stuff to me.
He was a jbl and klipsch dealer (professional) years ago.
Klipsch was the start for him because he needs live volume levels.
I dare say the Ev hr90 is one of the best horns I've ever heard, followed by a mcm bowtie horn.
These are pa horns. Almost all horns add reflections or echo, some better than others.
Parallel walls and breaks in flare add reflections, and I think it is impossible to eliminate the length, width, and depth standing waves in a horn. Spherical is the only way to go to me.
It took me a while to realize what I was hearing (fine for P.a. but not reproduction).
Listening to "Fast and the Furious" soundtrack I said "is that a duo with him or to much reverb?"
I checked it on headphones and the echo wasn't there.
My favorite horn was my Keele W-bin (7ft2 mouth). That made kick drum sound like kick drum.
Problem was I had to be over 10' away and I wanted more under 100hz, not 250hz-100hz (corner loaded with 1 of the ports stuffed). It had better slam than my 4 x 18's, I was trying to use it from 80hz down. Now I realize that it would work well for me now doing 80-200hz very fun !!!!!!!
What do i prefer ?
I'm usually laying on the couch as is my wife and the system is 40% used for movies, so an Ambio divider is out of the question. Non ambio stereo speaker setup made the voice sound hazy and unfocused (probably due to room reflections and the comb filtering of 2 different sources with our 2 ears) after listening to ambiophonics, since then I concentrated on 1 speaker instead of the stereo 2 and never went back (7 years ago).
Room treatment ?
I used to use foam and 12" sonotube cardboard columns.
I use none now.
Cd player only, and that is also the cheapest dvd player I could find to boot.
I like movies fairly load and fun, but not loud enough that I have to raise my voice to talk to my wife in the loud parts anymore. I run off the stereo outputs on the back of the dvd player. I miss the thump that has been moved to the subwoofer channel, but music is more important than movie sound to me.
Music, I'm now branching out from rap/hip hop/dance/led zeplin/enya/pink floyd to massive attack/yo yo ma/dave brubeck/holly cole trio/Allison Kraus/julie london/windam hill recordings. I'm just getting into popular jazz and I need to spend more time on amazon to hear the old jazz like ella fitzgerald, nina simone, stuff like that. I'm enjoying the female voice more and more, along with asian drum stuff and I especially liked the "Kingdom of Heaven" soundtrack, neat combination of classical and middle east. Also I liked the dj remixed classic jazz disc, but I can't remember what it is called now. I like slow country like "whisky lullaby" by Brad Paisley and Allison Kraus. But I'm not a classical or country music fan.
I love horns, don't get me wrong.
Dynamics make stuff sound real that helps with our compressed recordings now.
It makes music fun !!!!!!!!!!!!
I just want a cleaner more transparant sound than any horn has given me so far.
My friend is a horn expert, and he loves the Ev hr90, I couldn't listen to it once I sniffed out its flaws, fun but not for me.
I like e-stats but my budget is limited.
Full range drivers are fairly inexpensive and do what I want.
And I don't want an electronic crossover to add grunge either.
A passive line level crossover is an option, but then I need multiple amplifiers (good luck with grounding loops) and a stout preamp to push the crossover. I like the receiver full range driver combination I have now, I just want more volume.
I believe for the money, the 400hz stereo lab horn would be the best in mid horn out there today, cross it 600hz-4khz at 24db Linkwitz Riley (so you can time align) using the community 2" m200a and a real piezo. Pair of 15's under that unless you use some 12's that can horn load up to 600hz, maybe the under .2 qts 12's from Paudio could work. Then slot loaded push pull 18's for under 100hz. To me, that is a hot setup without taking up too much room.
I learned much on transparancy from a pair of accoustat spectra 11's, but they wouldn't go loud enough then, so I sold them and built my push pulls. They'd ok for me now, but 5' from the front wall is an impossibility now and lack of time alignment is a deal breaker.
Then I got into time alignment and horns.
I had mucho luck with a pioneer b20 with a piezo actively crossed at 24db at 5khz, killer setup.
Then I made the ambio demonstrator.
That stupid single driver at low volumes (open baffle) sounded wonderfull, very revealing and highly intelligible so you picked up on voice inflections in movies. But any bass and the voice garbles.
That got me into full range driver phase I've been in for about 3-4 years now, trying to get bass and full range drivers without circuitry.
Since then I've strived to get more out of them (full range drivers) and am happy seeing the FAST systems now.
Problem is any circuitry removes some of the magic.
But I still need bass.
Then I looked into multiple full range drivers, I use a dual one now.
In a week or 2, I should have a 4 unit focused open backed box array using 4 of the 4" bamboo tang bands.
I have too many of the closeout 2" peerless 830983 I got from partsexpress.
On the drawing board now is either a 9 driver focused array using the peerless 2" or a 16 driver focused array using the peerless tc9.
I will get into analog when I invest in a good record cleaner and player.
Very smooth, real, and easy to listen to, I agree.
For the last while, I've been on a loudspeaker kick, I've been concentrating on that for a long while now.
Amp check, wires check, setup check, cd player check.
Once I have that settled, I'll branch into another audio thing.
I got to listen to my old pairs of vegas I sold 2 years, they sound really bad now compared to my current setup. It's good to revisit your past setups to make sure you are still going in the right direction.
Norman
Hi Norman!
I was on vacation so I couldnt reply to you earlier. If an Ambio barrier (or sound divider, whatever you call it) wont do it for movies, have two systems like I do. One for music the other for movies. I also used to have volume problems with my system, so I used to put two drivers of the same type in the box (Or I used two horns above each other). If you need you could simply hook each of them with a mono block tube amplifier (no need to mess with push pulls!) and run them simultaneously. You can still have mono with two full range speakers that are in the same box or at least close to each other. Please correct me if Im wrong, Im just trying to share my ideas not be arrogant.
Im very interested what will happen to your stereo system. Id be very glad if you would post once you finished.
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
I was on vacation so I couldnt reply to you earlier. If an Ambio barrier (or sound divider, whatever you call it) wont do it for movies, have two systems like I do. One for music the other for movies. I also used to have volume problems with my system, so I used to put two drivers of the same type in the box (Or I used two horns above each other). If you need you could simply hook each of them with a mono block tube amplifier (no need to mess with push pulls!) and run them simultaneously. You can still have mono with two full range speakers that are in the same box or at least close to each other. Please correct me if Im wrong, Im just trying to share my ideas not be arrogant.
Im very interested what will happen to your stereo system. Id be very glad if you would post once you finished.
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
Hello Azul,
All is good. There is no wrong setup. Sometimes there is better, and I'm always up for ideas.
I only have a small apartment, so the system is mainly used for backround music and movies for at least 2 people. I havn't been able to move forward with the focused array because my carpenter has vansihed again. To bad, I now have 38 of the 2" peerless (on sale at parts express) and also 17 of the hivi b3s drivers (and the notch components). I know once I have a different setup or buy something else, he will show up again. Had I known he was this unreliable, I would have gone ahead and fixed my broken sweet sounding Nakamichi Sr3a receiver that I use as a receiver or as an amplifier with the active crossover I have.
Since my ambiophonics fun, stereo speaker setups have a fuzzy blurry voice instead of running 1 speaker. Now I am cursed to have only 1 speaker in mono. I'm unsure if it is the 2 sound sources or the extra wall bounce from the wrong side (left speaker sound bouncing off right wall then coming at you from the right but delayed). Actually it is similar to church speaker setups. A center cluster with speakers sounds much better for voice than a stereo setup.
I run dual 4" tang bands in 1 box, both run wide open firing at you, no baffle step. This is a better setup for me due to cleaner, less strained output. I boost bass to compensate for baffle step. I tried covering one driver with foam for baffle step but didn't like the loss in clarity. I run the pair of 15's with 80hz f-mod for bass.
Actually my system is about to change.
I found out I was using the Ev hr90 horn wrong.
http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/HR90 EDS.pdf
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/vintage_altec/291-16A_hfdriver_spec_sheet_early.pdf
My wife liked the way it sounded and didn't mind the 1' tall by 2' wide horn mouth sitting on a 1' wide box.
I heard something wrong with it, but not echos or reverb normally common in horns. Actually it kicked a lot of tail watching "Kill Bill 2".
For movies, I don't like a speaker that goes up to 20khz. The 10:1 compression of dolby digital sounds really bad in the highs, especially when there is a lot of sounds happening at the same time. Loud glass breaking can send me from the room.
To me, crossing the hr90 horn 600-800hz, I heard a glare. When I tried the same compression driver on a smaller bow tie mcm horn, I found I needed 2khz LR at 24db/octave to minimize some peak/glare in the sound (-6db at 2khz). If the horn is baffle loaded, it will go a little lower, and eq is an option also. My active crossover has cd-eq, so it adds highs to compensate for a horn that doesn't boost the highs, so the glare I heard wasn't due to a lack of highs.
My friend told me what was going on.
Basically what you hear at your listening seat is a combination of the plane wave driver response and the D.I. of the horn. The effect with horns is more drastic than with speaker cones. Sort of the way a 4" with a dome tweeter sounds different than a 6" because of more off axis energy transmitted into the room. Similar to the "How does it sound from the next room" test. Wide dispersion setups pass that test with flying colors. Eventhough the hr90's horn mouth is 1' x 2', the DI plot decreases below 1.6khz. So basically I'd need to cross it no lower than 1khz. Otherwise it drops off like a rock at the listening position below 1khz-1.6khz. It sounds like a peak is there (1.5khz ?) eventhough there it is actually a knee shaped response. You can cross it at 650hz, and it will measure flat near the mouth. So crossing it at 1khz, now i need to match up directivity at the crossover point. That would require a 12" driver. I have some of my friend's 12's to try, but they are brand new in box. I like trying his stuff when it is used. I don't like opening his new stuff. He crossed the bowtie horn and the same compression driver I have at 800hz, but used a resistor in parallel with the driver. That flattened out the response compared to an un-equalized freq response that would have looked like a pyramid. Klipsch did this too.
I was looking at the stereolab 400hz tractrix horns (actually 600hz), but they are 300mm across. The mouth gives directivity down to about 1khz, then response would roll off below that at the listening position.
Thinking on horn mouth sizes, the real theater horns (set up for 500hz at 24db) have a mouth 3' x 3'. That was the standard 500hz 2 way with compression driver. Now the jbl ones run a pair of 6" drivers horn loaded from 200hz (like an altec a7) above a 15" or 2 15", with a 1khz horn above them, tab uses push pull 15's. The directivity makes the system sound better eventhough it measures the same. There is a better signal to noise ratio in the audience (more direct and less reflected sound).
It's time for me to go back to the "dark side" of horns. Their dynamics makes music fun, sounding more real than cones and domes in boxes. I may return to full range drivers in a month or a year. My current setup of dual 4" with bass support) has outlasted many of my setups over the last 7 years. Now my system has fallen into 10% music / 90% movies..............
Norman
All is good. There is no wrong setup. Sometimes there is better, and I'm always up for ideas.
I only have a small apartment, so the system is mainly used for backround music and movies for at least 2 people. I havn't been able to move forward with the focused array because my carpenter has vansihed again. To bad, I now have 38 of the 2" peerless (on sale at parts express) and also 17 of the hivi b3s drivers (and the notch components). I know once I have a different setup or buy something else, he will show up again. Had I known he was this unreliable, I would have gone ahead and fixed my broken sweet sounding Nakamichi Sr3a receiver that I use as a receiver or as an amplifier with the active crossover I have.
Since my ambiophonics fun, stereo speaker setups have a fuzzy blurry voice instead of running 1 speaker. Now I am cursed to have only 1 speaker in mono. I'm unsure if it is the 2 sound sources or the extra wall bounce from the wrong side (left speaker sound bouncing off right wall then coming at you from the right but delayed). Actually it is similar to church speaker setups. A center cluster with speakers sounds much better for voice than a stereo setup.
I run dual 4" tang bands in 1 box, both run wide open firing at you, no baffle step. This is a better setup for me due to cleaner, less strained output. I boost bass to compensate for baffle step. I tried covering one driver with foam for baffle step but didn't like the loss in clarity. I run the pair of 15's with 80hz f-mod for bass.
Actually my system is about to change.
I found out I was using the Ev hr90 horn wrong.
http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/HR90 EDS.pdf
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/vintage_altec/291-16A_hfdriver_spec_sheet_early.pdf
My wife liked the way it sounded and didn't mind the 1' tall by 2' wide horn mouth sitting on a 1' wide box.
I heard something wrong with it, but not echos or reverb normally common in horns. Actually it kicked a lot of tail watching "Kill Bill 2".
For movies, I don't like a speaker that goes up to 20khz. The 10:1 compression of dolby digital sounds really bad in the highs, especially when there is a lot of sounds happening at the same time. Loud glass breaking can send me from the room.
To me, crossing the hr90 horn 600-800hz, I heard a glare. When I tried the same compression driver on a smaller bow tie mcm horn, I found I needed 2khz LR at 24db/octave to minimize some peak/glare in the sound (-6db at 2khz). If the horn is baffle loaded, it will go a little lower, and eq is an option also. My active crossover has cd-eq, so it adds highs to compensate for a horn that doesn't boost the highs, so the glare I heard wasn't due to a lack of highs.
My friend told me what was going on.
Basically what you hear at your listening seat is a combination of the plane wave driver response and the D.I. of the horn. The effect with horns is more drastic than with speaker cones. Sort of the way a 4" with a dome tweeter sounds different than a 6" because of more off axis energy transmitted into the room. Similar to the "How does it sound from the next room" test. Wide dispersion setups pass that test with flying colors. Eventhough the hr90's horn mouth is 1' x 2', the DI plot decreases below 1.6khz. So basically I'd need to cross it no lower than 1khz. Otherwise it drops off like a rock at the listening position below 1khz-1.6khz. It sounds like a peak is there (1.5khz ?) eventhough there it is actually a knee shaped response. You can cross it at 650hz, and it will measure flat near the mouth. So crossing it at 1khz, now i need to match up directivity at the crossover point. That would require a 12" driver. I have some of my friend's 12's to try, but they are brand new in box. I like trying his stuff when it is used. I don't like opening his new stuff. He crossed the bowtie horn and the same compression driver I have at 800hz, but used a resistor in parallel with the driver. That flattened out the response compared to an un-equalized freq response that would have looked like a pyramid. Klipsch did this too.
I was looking at the stereolab 400hz tractrix horns (actually 600hz), but they are 300mm across. The mouth gives directivity down to about 1khz, then response would roll off below that at the listening position.
Thinking on horn mouth sizes, the real theater horns (set up for 500hz at 24db) have a mouth 3' x 3'. That was the standard 500hz 2 way with compression driver. Now the jbl ones run a pair of 6" drivers horn loaded from 200hz (like an altec a7) above a 15" or 2 15", with a 1khz horn above them, tab uses push pull 15's. The directivity makes the system sound better eventhough it measures the same. There is a better signal to noise ratio in the audience (more direct and less reflected sound).
It's time for me to go back to the "dark side" of horns. Their dynamics makes music fun, sounding more real than cones and domes in boxes. I may return to full range drivers in a month or a year. My current setup of dual 4" with bass support) has outlasted many of my setups over the last 7 years. Now my system has fallen into 10% music / 90% movies..............
Norman
Hello,
I've seen too many comments on disconnected bass with a blh, that's out of the question for me.
The hr90horns have been tossed aside, too much echo. Maybe open cell foam would help..............
Not being a woodworker, slows my projects.
That 138 es-r fostex is too pricy for me.
The peaks at 4khz and 10khz seem scary to me.
I always liked the graphs of the fe107e and wonder why I've not read more on it.
I'm not a fan of whizzers, but I'd like to hear some low priced lowthers.
Or a 2' wide baffle fe166e, I think that would sound great with bass support.
Norman
I've seen too many comments on disconnected bass with a blh, that's out of the question for me.
The hr90horns have been tossed aside, too much echo. Maybe open cell foam would help..............
Not being a woodworker, slows my projects.
That 138 es-r fostex is too pricy for me.
The peaks at 4khz and 10khz seem scary to me.
I always liked the graphs of the fe107e and wonder why I've not read more on it.
I'm not a fan of whizzers, but I'd like to hear some low priced lowthers.
Or a 2' wide baffle fe166e, I think that would sound great with bass support.
Norman
Hi Norman,
The little peaks can always be eliminated by a ...(Sperrkreis or Saugkreis is the word in german. I didnt find the right translation... Does blocking circuit tell you anything? Anyway, its to be built similar to the crossover - sorry).
Did you ever experiment with the peaks above 5KHz? I read that peaks at frequencies that high cannot really be detected by the ear, and it basically makes no difference... What do you say, is this acceptable?
As far as I know the FE 138 es-r is still the best fullrange on the market by fostex (If not fostex, what will do it???). The price for both would be 900 Euros (ebay) , which shouldn't be worth more than a living room couch... Upto now I spent more money on my ambio system than on my car, and I have a very poor paying job at the moment.
Please tell me, what is a blh horn? Is that a foldet bass horn? What do you mean by disconnected bass?
Another thing about horns, what do you think of spherical horns compared to the quadratic ones?
Thanks a lot!
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
The little peaks can always be eliminated by a ...(Sperrkreis or Saugkreis is the word in german. I didnt find the right translation... Does blocking circuit tell you anything? Anyway, its to be built similar to the crossover - sorry).
Did you ever experiment with the peaks above 5KHz? I read that peaks at frequencies that high cannot really be detected by the ear, and it basically makes no difference... What do you say, is this acceptable?
As far as I know the FE 138 es-r is still the best fullrange on the market by fostex (If not fostex, what will do it???). The price for both would be 900 Euros (ebay) , which shouldn't be worth more than a living room couch... Upto now I spent more money on my ambio system than on my car, and I have a very poor paying job at the moment.
Please tell me, what is a blh horn? Is that a foldet bass horn? What do you mean by disconnected bass?
Another thing about horns, what do you think of spherical horns compared to the quadratic ones?
Thanks a lot!
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
hello,
peak near 8khz is audible as too much sizzle and crash, or too many s's, while 1-3khz give a hard glaringing (some say shout) sound. My 4" bamboo has a peak at 6khz, I see it on graphs but I have yet to hear it.
Peaks are tough to reduce because harmonics cause it to ring. Yes you can notch the 5khz coming in, but a 2.5khz will cause the 5khz to ring. So will 1/3 below 5khz. I had a 4.5khz peak on a piezo that really started to get annoying when slide the 24db LR active crossover from 5khz to 4khz (if a 5khz crossover pont, the driver was -6db at 5khz).
Blh = back loaded horn, long horn behind a bass or full range driver. Usually you try to keep only bass to go through but I've read reviews when the bass just seems slow or behind the music.............
Horns are tricky, there are standing waves due to diaphram to mouth and standing waves due to the dimensions of the mouth. If the horn has parallel walls, that is also a standing wave. Corners may have an effect. A spherical horn should have the least reflections.
avantegarde uno nano in stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/avantgarde_acoustic_uno_nano_loudspeaker/index1.html
"So while the Nano couldn't be mistaken for a speaker using cone, ribbon, or electrostatic drivers—each of which type, of course, has its own distinctive colorations—its level of horn coloration was about the lowest I've heard."
I like the bow tie from mcm but that is a 1.4" opening needing 2khz crossover point due to the 6" mouth height. Crossing lower sounds like a peak near 1.5khz due to the knee in the freq response. The threaded round horn should be good, again crossing at 2khz.
cd horns tend to have parallel wall while it opens in the other direction.
Norman
peak near 8khz is audible as too much sizzle and crash, or too many s's, while 1-3khz give a hard glaringing (some say shout) sound. My 4" bamboo has a peak at 6khz, I see it on graphs but I have yet to hear it.
Peaks are tough to reduce because harmonics cause it to ring. Yes you can notch the 5khz coming in, but a 2.5khz will cause the 5khz to ring. So will 1/3 below 5khz. I had a 4.5khz peak on a piezo that really started to get annoying when slide the 24db LR active crossover from 5khz to 4khz (if a 5khz crossover pont, the driver was -6db at 5khz).
Blh = back loaded horn, long horn behind a bass or full range driver. Usually you try to keep only bass to go through but I've read reviews when the bass just seems slow or behind the music.............
Horns are tricky, there are standing waves due to diaphram to mouth and standing waves due to the dimensions of the mouth. If the horn has parallel walls, that is also a standing wave. Corners may have an effect. A spherical horn should have the least reflections.
avantegarde uno nano in stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/avantgarde_acoustic_uno_nano_loudspeaker/index1.html
"So while the Nano couldn't be mistaken for a speaker using cone, ribbon, or electrostatic drivers—each of which type, of course, has its own distinctive colorations—its level of horn coloration was about the lowest I've heard."
I like the bow tie from mcm but that is a 1.4" opening needing 2khz crossover point due to the 6" mouth height. Crossing lower sounds like a peak near 1.5khz due to the knee in the freq response. The threaded round horn should be good, again crossing at 2khz.
cd horns tend to have parallel wall while it opens in the other direction.
Norman
Dear Norman,
Nice speakers at that link there. I understand spherical horns have less reflections and less corners and whatnot and are better than quadratic ones.
What about dips in the frequency amplitude (like in the graph I uploaded), can you here these?
Thanks a lot!
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
Sorry for only seeing this now coloradodude. The answer is no (unless some kind of funny amplifier with a RACE programm processor is included, and then youd still need to move the speakers together). Anyway, you wouldnt want it. A true physical sound barrier with actual room treatment creates a far better sound than some digitally modified stuff.
Nice speakers at that link there. I understand spherical horns have less reflections and less corners and whatnot and are better than quadratic ones.
What about dips in the frequency amplitude (like in the graph I uploaded), can you here these?
Thanks a lot!
Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
Sorry for only seeing this now coloradodude. The answer is no (unless some kind of funny amplifier with a RACE programm processor is included, and then youd still need to move the speakers together). Anyway, you wouldnt want it. A true physical sound barrier with actual room treatment creates a far better sound than some digitally modified stuff.
Attachments
from the article
"Crossover frequencies: 300Hz, 3kHz"
that is measured at 50".................
"To be fair to Avantgarde, however, they strongly warn against measuring not just the Uno Nano but all their speakers at distances of less than 2.5m (98"), because the relative differences between the distance of each drive-unit from the microphone will be extreme. Unfortunately, I can't place my microphone that far away from the speaker and still get a meaningful response that isn't corrupted by the reflections of the speaker's sound from boundaries. Therefore, these suckouts may look worse than they sound."
well, on the graph of the individual drivers, the mids peak near 2.2khz then drop like a rock, the driver resonates then vanishes.......... the high freq driver seems to roll off below 4khz.
this can be crossed at 2khz
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-H-65-/54-580
and this one
http://cgi.ebay.de/Tractrix-Kugelwe...ash=item2ea3d17de3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
and this has directivity down to 1khz, freq will drop off below that............... 12" mouth..
http://cgi.ebay.de/Tractrix-Kugelwe...ash=item2ea29c0d6d&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
and I'm partial to the mcm bow tie crossed at 2khz also.
no system is perfect............
Norman
"Crossover frequencies: 300Hz, 3kHz"
that is measured at 50".................
"To be fair to Avantgarde, however, they strongly warn against measuring not just the Uno Nano but all their speakers at distances of less than 2.5m (98"), because the relative differences between the distance of each drive-unit from the microphone will be extreme. Unfortunately, I can't place my microphone that far away from the speaker and still get a meaningful response that isn't corrupted by the reflections of the speaker's sound from boundaries. Therefore, these suckouts may look worse than they sound."
well, on the graph of the individual drivers, the mids peak near 2.2khz then drop like a rock, the driver resonates then vanishes.......... the high freq driver seems to roll off below 4khz.
this can be crossed at 2khz
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-H-65-/54-580
and this one
http://cgi.ebay.de/Tractrix-Kugelwe...ash=item2ea3d17de3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
and this has directivity down to 1khz, freq will drop off below that............... 12" mouth..
http://cgi.ebay.de/Tractrix-Kugelwe...ash=item2ea29c0d6d&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
and I'm partial to the mcm bow tie crossed at 2khz also.
no system is perfect............
Norman
Linux? Heresy! I thought you were a Solaris user?
Anyways, did you continue to use this?
I installed Audiomulch yesterday, here are some (subjective) opinions.
First, I started with Foobar 2000, using the three impulse files from the web site. The two race files sounded quite nice at first. The stage was noticeably wider, and astonishingly deeper. The speakers already do an excellent job of "disappearing" but this took it to the next level.
The BACCH(sp?) file was completely unlistenable using Foobar 2000; phasey and echoey and weird. Just awful.
One thing that helped a lot was reducing the percentage from 100% down to 50%, give or take 10%. That made the effect more natural. At first I had the loudspeakers in their normal position, nearly ten feet apart. Eventually I moved them 50cm apart, as recommended by the site, then eventually spread them out to about six feet apart.
After listening on the Summas for a few hours, I decided burn some WAVs and loaded them up in the car. (my car system is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148006&goto=newpost )
In the car the effect was noticeably more subtle. At home the difference was immediately apparent. My guess is this is due to being off-axis.
In the car, I think the ambiophonics effect may be more listenable than at home. The increased depth of stage is welcome, since you're in nearfield. More importantly, ambiophonics at home tended to diffuse the center image, which isn't always a good thing. In the car, diffusion of the soundstage was pleasant, because it keeps the stage from drifting towards the drivers side.
So that's the good news.
Now the bad news:
I installed Audiomulch, and all of the impulse files were unlistenable. The pitch of the files was completely off; it sounded like the songs were being played at 75% of their normal tempo, maybe less. I have a quad-core, with plenty of CPU resources, so I don't think it's the PC.
After listening with the Foobar convolver, it sloooowly became apparent that voices had artifacts. It reminded me of the compression artifacts you hear with mpeg, where the decay of a sound is unnatural. Also, the reduction in treble grows irritating with music. When listening to podcasts, it was quite nice, because they don't have much treble. But with music, the treble sounded wonky.
Also, on some music, ambiophonics seemed to "null out" the vocals. It reminded me of one of those plug ins that are designed to remove the vocals from a music track for karaoke. Definitely not a good thing.
All in all, an interesting experiment, but the effect on the treble is (almost) intolerable. I only listened in the car for about 30 minutes, so I'm hoping to have an opportunity to listen longer.
Optimal Source distribution
an advantage is that, unlike the two-speaker solutions, the off-axis response is quite listenable. It is very hard to make ambiophonics work as well with most recordings, in most rooms (for the reasons given in the original opsodis paper). Though when ambiophonics does work it is very good!
As it happens, I'm still using the setup I posted about many months ago, without the slightest change (the motivation for change has utterly gone).
A great pity to have Summas though and find that opsodis is the way to go.
Ken
an advantage is that, unlike the two-speaker solutions, the off-axis response is quite listenable. It is very hard to make ambiophonics work as well with most recordings, in most rooms (for the reasons given in the original opsodis paper). Though when ambiophonics does work it is very good!
As it happens, I'm still using the setup I posted about many months ago, without the slightest change (the motivation for change has utterly gone).
A great pity to have Summas though and find that opsodis is the way to go.
Ken
interesting stuff -
i didn't realize the filter screws up the off-axis response*. I'll have to read up to learn why that is.
The Summas are designed for off-axis listening, and I *did* notice that the sound coming from the speaker with the Foobar convolver degraded as you got closer. For instance, I was playing music, and moving the speakers around the room, and the music sounded phasey and weird when I was near the speaker. But on the couch, it was pleasant. And in the back of the room, it was even better.
* from your post here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132847
the paper
www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/STAFF/Pubs/Pubpdfs/Pub8526.pdf
is well written and not too hard to follow
Ken
www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/STAFF/Pubs/Pubpdfs/Pub8526.pdf
is well written and not too hard to follow
Ken
A pair of speakers with a divider is so much simpler but makes the room ugly.
A pair of full range drivers should work best (less phase issues) assuming they are close enough or play loud enough.
see a picture on page 17 of near speakers in a recording studio.
http://www.ambiophonics.org/files/aes111a.pdf
or for a larger room with a divider.
http://www.audiophilerecordingstrust.org.uk/listening_room_1.jpg
I don't see reason for extra circuitry unless you are going for a huge, multi speaker setup. The results were great even with non time aligned speakers. No hazy voice in between 2 speakers. It was right there as if someone is standing there.
Norman
A pair of full range drivers should work best (less phase issues) assuming they are close enough or play loud enough.
see a picture on page 17 of near speakers in a recording studio.
http://www.ambiophonics.org/files/aes111a.pdf
or for a larger room with a divider.
http://www.audiophilerecordingstrust.org.uk/listening_room_1.jpg
I don't see reason for extra circuitry unless you are going for a huge, multi speaker setup. The results were great even with non time aligned speakers. No hazy voice in between 2 speakers. It was right there as if someone is standing there.
Norman