I've tried 36 Hz, 40 and 45hz box tuning, I found that 40hz was the best.
But it certainly depends of the personnal taste and the room.
That's the personnality of these speakers I think, they don't go very low but the tonal balance is good,
the vocals and piano are natural, listening at high level is not tiring.
After some tuning it's a good design.
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Yeah, I know he does. I guess you're saying that maybe the 800 hump may diminish?
On a side note, does anyone know how to kind of adjust soundstage depth? I was hoping to be able to bring vocals forward a bit and separate them from drums and such. The NOMEX have a pretty deep stage, the drums can sound way beyond the back wall, but the vocals are also kind of pushed back. Part of that may be the Nova that I am using; it has a laid back sound on it's own. Any thoughts?
Evan
Nah, I was referring to the bass response, RE: break in.
Depth is generally whatever your brain makes out of the combination of reverb/reflected sound on the recording and the reflected sound in your room (which is different for every speaker), although sometimes boosting a frequency range will make things seem to jump forward a little. Try playing with positioning, including a wide range of toe-in angles.
Depth is generally whatever your brain makes out of the combination of reverb/reflected sound on the recording and the reflected sound in your room (which is different for every speaker), although sometimes boosting a frequency range will make things seem to jump forward a little. Try playing with positioning, including a wide range of toe-in angles.
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Hey Satx...I just built these myself. If you looking on Troels website under builder response I am Dana from Florida with the center channel. Any way I thought these were too bright compared to my Sapphire III's I replaced these with. I emailed Troels and he suggested a couple changes on the tweeter xover in fact I am about to implement them now.
He mentioned that amps, room and personal preference are a factor in the xover.
He was really awesome and answer all my questioned. I hope to build one of his Jenzen designs at some point in the future.
In my case he suggested changing the L2011 to 1.0 mH and he suggested changing the R1051 to 1.8 or 2.7...I am going to try 2.2...I also suggested I could try changing R1061 to 10. ohm or try one or both on the 1051 and 1061...I am gonna change the L2011 for sure. I bi-wired these so I can unplug my tweeter and I can barely tell I have no tweeter that way.
It may be that the ACI's were a lot more mellow...but I noticed some listening fatigue while listening at a loud level for an medium length of time. Now it is possible than need longer break in, but I can always change back.
I am very happy I built these though becasue if for no other reason i can adjust the xover to my taste...something I hadn't really thought about before I built these.
He mentioned that amps, room and personal preference are a factor in the xover.
He was really awesome and answer all my questioned. I hope to build one of his Jenzen designs at some point in the future.
In my case he suggested changing the L2011 to 1.0 mH and he suggested changing the R1051 to 1.8 or 2.7...I am going to try 2.2...I also suggested I could try changing R1061 to 10. ohm or try one or both on the 1051 and 1061...I am gonna change the L2011 for sure. I bi-wired these so I can unplug my tweeter and I can barely tell I have no tweeter that way.
It may be that the ACI's were a lot more mellow...but I noticed some listening fatigue while listening at a loud level for an medium length of time. Now it is possible than need longer break in, but I can always change back.
I am very happy I built these though becasue if for no other reason i can adjust the xover to my taste...something I hadn't really thought about before I built these.
Hi,
one thing that could be interresting is to put a CLR notch filter on the 810921 because it has a bump of ~2dB between the 12-14 kHz region.
Another approch is to use a waveguide to boost the 10-12khz region.
According to these pages, values of the CLR are 1.5 mF, 0.1 mH, 6 Ohms.
Peerless HDS 2-way
I've tested a attenuation of 2dB of the 10-15 kHz region with an equaliser, this seems to improve the sound especially at high level.
Attenuating the tweter is not enough IMHO.
one thing that could be interresting is to put a CLR notch filter on the 810921 because it has a bump of ~2dB between the 12-14 kHz region.
Another approch is to use a waveguide to boost the 10-12khz region.
According to these pages, values of the CLR are 1.5 mF, 0.1 mH, 6 Ohms.
Peerless HDS 2-way
I've tested a attenuation of 2dB of the 10-15 kHz region with an equaliser, this seems to improve the sound especially at high level.
Attenuating the tweter is not enough IMHO.
Hey Pascal,
Not sure if i'll try it or not but where in the circuit does the notch go?
I'm actually very happy with the sound. I did attenuate the tweet with 1.2 and 15ohm and I like it better.
I have done a couple things to the NOMEX since I built them that have each shown a noticeable improvement: I added 5 layers of #30 roofing felt, each contact cemented together and then cemented to the interior walls under foam. I also replaced the cheap wire wound L-pad resistors that I used to test attenuation with audio grade and I replaced the series mid cap with superior-z form standard. I already used a good cap on the tweeter. The bitumen felt removed a fuzziness form around vocals and made the bass richer and firmer sounding. I replaced the resisters and cap at the same time, so I'm not sure what did what, but the result was removing a "s" sound and grain that I had been hearing since swapping in the cheaper resisters.
Just some thoughts,
Evan
Not sure if i'll try it or not but where in the circuit does the notch go?
I'm actually very happy with the sound. I did attenuate the tweet with 1.2 and 15ohm and I like it better.
I have done a couple things to the NOMEX since I built them that have each shown a noticeable improvement: I added 5 layers of #30 roofing felt, each contact cemented together and then cemented to the interior walls under foam. I also replaced the cheap wire wound L-pad resistors that I used to test attenuation with audio grade and I replaced the series mid cap with superior-z form standard. I already used a good cap on the tweeter. The bitumen felt removed a fuzziness form around vocals and made the bass richer and firmer sounding. I replaced the resisters and cap at the same time, so I'm not sure what did what, but the result was removing a "s" sound and grain that I had been hearing since swapping in the cheaper resisters.
Just some thoughts,
Evan
Hey Clausen,
Sorry I didn't see your post.
Yes Troels was really nice and helpful to me too. I saw your build, nice job; I was actually thinking of asking Troels for info on that center as I couldn't come up with anything on the net; it does seem huge though. I also thought they were a little bright at first, but they have certainly smoothed and mellowed; I started really liking them after 60 or 70 hrs. In the first few hours the tweeter sounded terrible, really grainy and harsh. With the l-pad adjustment I mentioned above I think they sound much better; thanks Pascal! That is what Troels was talking about with the two resistors, except he's attenuating it even further than I did. I used R1051-1.2 and R1061-15. What would changing the coil do, did he say.
I don't think I would want them to be any more laid back than mine are now. They are really warm and smooth, even with most rock; maybe not accurate, but that's the way I like them. I have a pretty well damped room though and I'm using a peachtree nova which is a little warm, too. Your results may vary.
Evan
Sorry I didn't see your post.
Yes Troels was really nice and helpful to me too. I saw your build, nice job; I was actually thinking of asking Troels for info on that center as I couldn't come up with anything on the net; it does seem huge though. I also thought they were a little bright at first, but they have certainly smoothed and mellowed; I started really liking them after 60 or 70 hrs. In the first few hours the tweeter sounded terrible, really grainy and harsh. With the l-pad adjustment I mentioned above I think they sound much better; thanks Pascal! That is what Troels was talking about with the two resistors, except he's attenuating it even further than I did. I used R1051-1.2 and R1061-15. What would changing the coil do, did he say.
I don't think I would want them to be any more laid back than mine are now. They are really warm and smooth, even with most rock; maybe not accurate, but that's the way I like them. I have a pretty well damped room though and I'm using a peachtree nova which is a little warm, too. Your results may vary.
Evan
Yeah he said it lowered the crossover some 500hz so it would have less energy in the 1-3khz range. It seems to me they sound a lot better today. Part of that could be break in...also, those caps I used they say take a long time to break in as well. I haven't had a "listening" session in 2-3 weeks..
The center channel...well its a long story...in short I copied the crossover from the Scan Speak Mark 21 on the mid and tweeter as well as the woofers and just used the Nomex 8" cause they were cheap...it sounds great though...I think i like the center channel better...I also copied the cabinet from his 8008 cenetr as far as design...I think it is a little bigger...I tried to get the volume he had for the Mark 21 tower but I didn't quite have enough room.
I decided to change those components out last night thinking it wouldn't take long and then i had some problems and was working on them until 3:30am....its so annoying because part of the problem was my amp...one speaker was a lot quieter so i thought something was loose...I have separate mono amps on my front speakers ...I have 3 Adcom 2535's which are 4 channel amps with one side bridgeable to one channel...I knew this too, that one side has been acting up and I forgot! LOL...wasted at least 2 hours...took both Crossovers back out trying to figure it out....
I moved the other speaker on that quite side and thats when i finally remembered....
Drop me an email and I'll give you more details if you want them Evan....
lind_d@comcast.net
Dana
The center channel...well its a long story...in short I copied the crossover from the Scan Speak Mark 21 on the mid and tweeter as well as the woofers and just used the Nomex 8" cause they were cheap...it sounds great though...I think i like the center channel better...I also copied the cabinet from his 8008 cenetr as far as design...I think it is a little bigger...I tried to get the volume he had for the Mark 21 tower but I didn't quite have enough room.
I decided to change those components out last night thinking it wouldn't take long and then i had some problems and was working on them until 3:30am....its so annoying because part of the problem was my amp...one speaker was a lot quieter so i thought something was loose...I have separate mono amps on my front speakers ...I have 3 Adcom 2535's which are 4 channel amps with one side bridgeable to one channel...I knew this too, that one side has been acting up and I forgot! LOL...wasted at least 2 hours...took both Crossovers back out trying to figure it out....
I moved the other speaker on that quite side and thats when i finally remembered....
Drop me an email and I'll give you more details if you want them Evan....
lind_d@comcast.net
Dana
Thanks, I may get some more info on the center; I'll let you know. I just bought a vintage Marantz on CL yesterday, so right now I'm trying to get a vinyl rig together, it's my first. After I get that together and have some fun with it then I will probably think about building something else. A Rythmik sub is on my radar and I also am interested in one of the Jentzens in the future, but not too soon on those.
I wondered if I could build some kind of a horizontal NOMEX 164 or a 2 way NOMEX with bsc instead of the lower woofer. I may ask Troels about his thoughts on this when I'm closer to being ready to build.
Is that coil part of a notch filter on the mid to deal with cone breakup? That was my guess, but I'm pretty unknowledgeable about crossovers.
Evan
I wondered if I could build some kind of a horizontal NOMEX 164 or a 2 way NOMEX with bsc instead of the lower woofer. I may ask Troels about his thoughts on this when I'm closer to being ready to build.
Is that coil part of a notch filter on the mid to deal with cone breakup? That was my guess, but I'm pretty unknowledgeable about crossovers.
Evan
I'm not sure if it is part of the notch filter...I don't really understand his drawings...I can however follow instructions...well I guess that depends on how much I've had to drink and how late it is...
Anyway...my wife talked me into renting Rock of Ages on Bluray...(I'm not even gonna comment on Tom Cruise playing a 20...or even 30 something year old...)
but the sound on some of the songs is impressive...
I also spent part of the day listening to the speakers...I had a good audition time....
I had just bought Talk Heads Stop making Sense on BluRay right before this change...if you are an 80's music fan...this is a must own...PERIOD...any way...hands down best concert Bluray or DVD I have....it sounded incredible...and that was with my old ACI's with a replaced 7 in driver and xover on the driver and a stock on the other one.
Built the Nomex 164's got them installed and put in my Talking Heads...this was my most recent music reference and so it was fresh in my mind.
The Nomex's which performed much better in the low range and even mids than the ACI Sapphires were too harsh in the high end and made my ears hurt after a medium listening time...20- 30 mins...
That has been several weeks now so consider break in plus crossover changes...I changed the L2011 to 1.1mh...thats what i had...he (Troels) said try 1mh...but said 1.1 was fine...and changed the R1051 to 2.2ohm
popped in my Talking heads...(Listening components...I have 2 12 inch subs powered with 1000watts... between the two...so...I have it wired so the amp see's one subwoofer...so do they both see 1000watts or 500 each...not sure on that math...) any way..I have a B&K pre/proc and it can swith between 2 channel stereo with the subs and without...i tried both...first of all...they sound amazing without the subs...I built the larger cabinet design...but I will always argue a dedicated sub sounds better until I hear different and I haven't so far...taht DOES NOT mean it can't...I just haven't heard it...
verdict...I am done with these for a long time I think...not gonna say that I won't change my mind in 2 weeks...but I don't think I will.
They still sound brighter to me than the ACI's...but I didn't mind that...I just didn't want the listening fatigue...which was gone or at least a lot better!!!!!
Let me put it this way...I over heated my amps twice...which deosn't usually happen unless I crank AC DC...I usually turn down my volume before that happens but I didn't "need" too before....
Over all I'd say this experience just keeps getting better and better!!! My brother has some real expensive speakers...can never remeber the brand name...he has some Mark Levison gear and other very high end stuff...me I run Adcom...cause I can't afford Mark Levison...like most people...LOL...
I thought my ACI's sounded better than my brothers speakers...partially casue I thoguht they had no bass and he has a very large listening room...well if the 164's sound better than the ACI's.........???????....I am very happy.......
BTW...Troels says on the 164's design page if you leave the R1061 out you get a + of 1-1.5 db on the tweeter...thats a pretty big increase...I'd try that before I did anything!!!!!
Anyway...my wife talked me into renting Rock of Ages on Bluray...(I'm not even gonna comment on Tom Cruise playing a 20...or even 30 something year old...)
but the sound on some of the songs is impressive...
I also spent part of the day listening to the speakers...I had a good audition time....
I had just bought Talk Heads Stop making Sense on BluRay right before this change...if you are an 80's music fan...this is a must own...PERIOD...any way...hands down best concert Bluray or DVD I have....it sounded incredible...and that was with my old ACI's with a replaced 7 in driver and xover on the driver and a stock on the other one.
Built the Nomex 164's got them installed and put in my Talking Heads...this was my most recent music reference and so it was fresh in my mind.
The Nomex's which performed much better in the low range and even mids than the ACI Sapphires were too harsh in the high end and made my ears hurt after a medium listening time...20- 30 mins...
That has been several weeks now so consider break in plus crossover changes...I changed the L2011 to 1.1mh...thats what i had...he (Troels) said try 1mh...but said 1.1 was fine...and changed the R1051 to 2.2ohm
popped in my Talking heads...(Listening components...I have 2 12 inch subs powered with 1000watts... between the two...so...I have it wired so the amp see's one subwoofer...so do they both see 1000watts or 500 each...not sure on that math...) any way..I have a B&K pre/proc and it can swith between 2 channel stereo with the subs and without...i tried both...first of all...they sound amazing without the subs...I built the larger cabinet design...but I will always argue a dedicated sub sounds better until I hear different and I haven't so far...taht DOES NOT mean it can't...I just haven't heard it...
verdict...I am done with these for a long time I think...not gonna say that I won't change my mind in 2 weeks...but I don't think I will.
They still sound brighter to me than the ACI's...but I didn't mind that...I just didn't want the listening fatigue...which was gone or at least a lot better!!!!!
Let me put it this way...I over heated my amps twice...which deosn't usually happen unless I crank AC DC...I usually turn down my volume before that happens but I didn't "need" too before....
Over all I'd say this experience just keeps getting better and better!!! My brother has some real expensive speakers...can never remeber the brand name...he has some Mark Levison gear and other very high end stuff...me I run Adcom...cause I can't afford Mark Levison...like most people...LOL...
I thought my ACI's sounded better than my brothers speakers...partially casue I thoguht they had no bass and he has a very large listening room...well if the 164's sound better than the ACI's.........???????....I am very happy.......
BTW...Troels says on the 164's design page if you leave the R1061 out you get a + of 1-1.5 db on the tweeter...thats a pretty big increase...I'd try that before I did anything!!!!!
Hi, I alo built the larger version and was very pleased with the bass. I still would like to use a sub for music, but it has to be clean. My current sub is OK, it's a Klipsh RSW-10d, it's a little muddy and tuneless compared to the NOMEX. I keep it turned off except for movies and TV. That's why I am thinking about the Rythmik, plus I would like deeper and more output.
I really hated the sound of the NOMEX with 1061R removed. It supposedly is flat that way, but they were way too aggressive. They were very nice with 1051 of 1.0 ohm and 1061 of 18 ohm, but after adjusting them even further with 1051 of 1.2 and 1061 of 15, they sound even smoother. especially female vocals and guitar sound much nicer and more natural.
I may try adjusting that coil sometime in the future, but I am just really happy with them now. They are very smooth, deep and throw a wide and deep sound stage with great seperation of instruments and vocals. I just can't say enough. I'm sure they aren't the end all and I know I'll eventually want more, plus I don't have a ton of experience with other equipment, but they meet the goals I was trying to achieve which more than anything was to get a smoother, non fatiguing speaker.
You could try adjusting the l-pad as I have and Pascal has if you wanted to tweak them some more. I'm not %100 sure of the attenuation you are getting with your current resisters, did you change 1051 to 2.2 and leave 1061 out or is that with 1061 in place? You can play with this http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm if you like; set speaker impedance to 5.
I can't imagine wanting to make mine any more laid back. I've even tried changing it back Troel's recommendations, for a little more energy, but I didn't like them. Of course The Peachtree is pretty neutral and clean, but also a bit laid back, plus my room is fairly damped. I've heard that Adcom can be a bit bright so maybe that could be a source of harsh or bright sound? Anyway's I'm glad your finally getting happy with them. Sorry if this was rambling, but it's getting late and I was traveling all day.
Evan
I really hated the sound of the NOMEX with 1061R removed. It supposedly is flat that way, but they were way too aggressive. They were very nice with 1051 of 1.0 ohm and 1061 of 18 ohm, but after adjusting them even further with 1051 of 1.2 and 1061 of 15, they sound even smoother. especially female vocals and guitar sound much nicer and more natural.
I may try adjusting that coil sometime in the future, but I am just really happy with them now. They are very smooth, deep and throw a wide and deep sound stage with great seperation of instruments and vocals. I just can't say enough. I'm sure they aren't the end all and I know I'll eventually want more, plus I don't have a ton of experience with other equipment, but they meet the goals I was trying to achieve which more than anything was to get a smoother, non fatiguing speaker.
You could try adjusting the l-pad as I have and Pascal has if you wanted to tweak them some more. I'm not %100 sure of the attenuation you are getting with your current resisters, did you change 1051 to 2.2 and leave 1061 out or is that with 1061 in place? You can play with this http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm if you like; set speaker impedance to 5.
I can't imagine wanting to make mine any more laid back. I've even tried changing it back Troel's recommendations, for a little more energy, but I didn't like them. Of course The Peachtree is pretty neutral and clean, but also a bit laid back, plus my room is fairly damped. I've heard that Adcom can be a bit bright so maybe that could be a source of harsh or bright sound? Anyway's I'm glad your finally getting happy with them. Sorry if this was rambling, but it's getting late and I was traveling all day.
Evan
You need to look at the size of my post compared to yours...mine is a lot larger!!!..LOL...and I offer no apology....this quest we are on...it is one of information and size is irrelevant...in terms of "did someone read my post or not cause it was long"...who cares...I'm gonna read ever word write..if I can help I want to try...if I can't help...I still want to try....
At the end of the day, when you and I go home and turn on our music, and it sounds AWESOME.....what else matters?????...Making it better??? Is that even possible???...HMM!!!!...if so who decides that!!!!
Clausen, I guess it wasn't the length it was that it started to sound disjointed to me, but I didn't want to reread or fix anything.
Anyway's I'm glad you're so happy with your speakers! I am too and that's really all that matters. Please share anymore experiences or changes you have with them as I will always want to improve mine I'm sure; isn't that the point of this hobby, to keep building and improving and learning and having fun?
Have a nice Christmas!
Evan
Anyway's I'm glad you're so happy with your speakers! I am too and that's really all that matters. Please share anymore experiences or changes you have with them as I will always want to improve mine I'm sure; isn't that the point of this hobby, to keep building and improving and learning and having fun?
Have a nice Christmas!
Evan
Hi,
Just to say that i'm working on voicing my Nomex 164.
Today I've increased the value of the coil of the upper medium/woofer,
Original value was 0.68 mH, I've increased to 0.82 mH.
I find the sound much more pleasant and less tiring at high SPL volume.
Simulations in attachment, blue is target curve LR24 at 3.3 khz,
black is with 0.68 mH, red with 0.82 mH value.
As you can see with a 0.82 mH coil value we are much closer from the target curve
Just to say that i'm working on voicing my Nomex 164.
Today I've increased the value of the coil of the upper medium/woofer,
Original value was 0.68 mH, I've increased to 0.82 mH.
I find the sound much more pleasant and less tiring at high SPL volume.
Simulations in attachment, blue is target curve LR24 at 3.3 khz,
black is with 0.68 mH, red with 0.82 mH value.
As you can see with a 0.82 mH coil value we are much closer from the target curve
Attachments
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Hey Pascal, too bad you're not happy with your speakers; sounds like you're getting close though. I really don't think that I want mine any more laid back. I have a fairly damped room though. With 1 and 18 ohm in the tweeter l-pad it had a bit too much energy, especially female vocals. By using 1.2 and 15 it sounds good to me.
Keep me updated, and who knows I may just try your tweeks anyways
Evan
Keep me updated, and who knows I may just try your tweeks anyways
Evan
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