That is very helpful to create a baseline that everyone can adhere to. Assuming the baseline is better than any single cap, maybe we can attempt a group order to isolate shipping costs if the caps are not available from a single source. Obviously, Radioshack caps are not readily available outside the USA, so somebody else would have to send them out from the USA. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud for now.....
Thinking Out Loud
Dweekie,
I agree that the baseline should be something that is readily available. I know that Radio Shack is available in the USA and UK. However, I don't know how wide spread they are in other parts of the world.
I am willing to use any cap for the base cap. I just need to know what is readily available. The point here is select a cap that most people can get a hold of without a lot of hassle. One step beyond convenience, most people will buy any "upscale" cap, and the intent of the baseline is lost.
The group buy is a valid alternative. I(we) just need to know what caps are readily available in other parts of the world; that is, if Radio Shack is not available.
Thinking out loud myself, maybe a baseline for regions of the world might be appropriate.
Dweekie,
I agree that the baseline should be something that is readily available. I know that Radio Shack is available in the USA and UK. However, I don't know how wide spread they are in other parts of the world.
I am willing to use any cap for the base cap. I just need to know what is readily available. The point here is select a cap that most people can get a hold of without a lot of hassle. One step beyond convenience, most people will buy any "upscale" cap, and the intent of the baseline is lost.
The group buy is a valid alternative. I(we) just need to know what caps are readily available in other parts of the world; that is, if Radio Shack is not available.
Thinking out loud myself, maybe a baseline for regions of the world might be appropriate.
In search of a Baseline
I removed the Russian 0.1 μf Teflon cap as a bypass. The air around the cymbals remained. This I believe is because of the 0.01 μf Wima film cap is responsible for the air. The slam/impact I associated with the bass was gone. The bass seemed somewhat less full. You could hear the bass, but you didn't really feel it.
I replaced the Russian Teflon with a Radio Shack 0.1 μf Metal Film Capacitor part #272-1053. The fullness of the bass returned when the RS film cap was placed in the circuit as a bypass.
This confirms that the value of the bypass capacitor rather then the composition of the capacitor is responsible for the sound.
I then replaced the WIMA cap witrh a Radio Shack 0.01 μf Metal Film Capacitor part #272-1051. This cap is responsible for the the air that seems to make the performance come alive.
The base cap are two Radio Shack 1.0 μf Metal film Capacitors part #272-1055 wired in parallel. For those that choose to have a little more bass a third or forth 1 μf in parallel could be added.
I will be using the above as the baseline for all subsequent bypass capacitor test. These caps are readily available at least in the USA and UK. With these caps as a baseline it will allow those that so desire to configure the baseline. They may then determine whether my reported deviations on any bypass combination is one they wish to pursue.
This baseline combination of capacitors is one I could easily live with. The sound is balanced and life like. It passes along detail and the soundstage is broad and deep. Altering the material composition of the various capacitors may possibly yield sonic dividends . YMMV
I removed the Russian 0.1 μf Teflon cap as a bypass. The air around the cymbals remained. This I believe is because of the 0.01 μf Wima film cap is responsible for the air. The slam/impact I associated with the bass was gone. The bass seemed somewhat less full. You could hear the bass, but you didn't really feel it.
I replaced the Russian Teflon with a Radio Shack 0.1 μf Metal Film Capacitor part #272-1053. The fullness of the bass returned when the RS film cap was placed in the circuit as a bypass.
This confirms that the value of the bypass capacitor rather then the composition of the capacitor is responsible for the sound.
I then replaced the WIMA cap witrh a Radio Shack 0.01 μf Metal Film Capacitor part #272-1051. This cap is responsible for the the air that seems to make the performance come alive.
The base cap are two Radio Shack 1.0 μf Metal film Capacitors part #272-1055 wired in parallel. For those that choose to have a little more bass a third or forth 1 μf in parallel could be added.
I will be using the above as the baseline for all subsequent bypass capacitor test. These caps are readily available at least in the USA and UK. With these caps as a baseline it will allow those that so desire to configure the baseline. They may then determine whether my reported deviations on any bypass combination is one they wish to pursue.
This baseline combination of capacitors is one I could easily live with. The sound is balanced and life like. It passes along detail and the soundstage is broad and deep. Altering the material composition of the various capacitors may possibly yield sonic dividends . YMMV
New Baseline
The baseline is just that. I have not gone back to compare the baseline to any "single" cap. The baseline sounds the closest to the MKP and the FWM bypass combos. I will use the baseline as a barometer to all subsequent test.
Anyone may configure a baseline combo and make their own comparisons for single caps or bypass combinations.
The baseline is just that. I have not gone back to compare the baseline to any "single" cap. The baseline sounds the closest to the MKP and the FWM bypass combos. I will use the baseline as a barometer to all subsequent test.
Anyone may configure a baseline combo and make their own comparisons for single caps or bypass combinations.
HELP - Sikorel Bypass Test
I have been trying to implement The Sikorel bypass combination. I have tried the 220 μf Sikorels as input caps ((with no bypass caps); but after the power fuse glows; the amp operates for a few seconds before overheating and shutting off. Fortunately, the chip has thermal protection. The the amp works once it cools and the 220 μf caps are out of the circuit.
Now, do I have to have the 200 Uf, the BG, and silver mica in parallel?
Or do you want me to try the BG N-Series with the silver micas?
I saw the photo you had of your Charlize with the Sikorels. Is the Sikorel operating as the coupling (DAC output and T-Amp input) cap from your DAC to the Charlize?
I willing to do the test I just need to understand what is to be tested.
Please, advise. TIA.
I have been trying to implement The Sikorel bypass combination. I have tried the 220 μf Sikorels as input caps ((with no bypass caps); but after the power fuse glows; the amp operates for a few seconds before overheating and shutting off. Fortunately, the chip has thermal protection. The the amp works once it cools and the 220 μf caps are out of the circuit.
Now, do I have to have the 200 Uf, the BG, and silver mica in parallel?
Or do you want me to try the BG N-Series with the silver micas?
I saw the photo you had of your Charlize with the Sikorels. Is the Sikorel operating as the coupling (DAC output and T-Amp input) cap from your DAC to the Charlize?
I willing to do the test I just need to understand what is to be tested.
Please, advise. TIA.
Bypassed BG N-series
The following test is based on recommendations by Radian. I tested the BG 4.7 μf N-Series cap. I compared this capacitor to the BaseLine Combination (BLC) . The BGs soundstage is not as broad and I don't feel the bass as I do the with the BLC.
I then added a 10,000 PF (0.01 μf) polystyrene cap to the BG. This made the cymbals come alive and the soundstage sounded somewhat wider. There was somewhat more air around the performers but the performance sounded veiled compared to the BLC.
I then added a 1 μf N-Series BG. This deepened the soundstage and gave body to the cymbals. The bass sounded deeper and fuller, really fuller. This combo really sounds life like. The BLC has less bass, but I suspect this is because the BLC is around 2 μf and the BG combo is 4.7+ μf. The greater capacitance should yield greater bass.
When switching back to the BLC for an extended period the specific difference i.e. enhancement yielded by the BG combo is lost in the delivery of the music. The BG combo sounds very life like.
The BG 4.7 μf, 1.0 μf, and 0.01 μf combos measured 5.95 μf and 5.94 μf. The future availability of Blackgate capacitors may be problematic. As of this date they are no longer being manufactured and supplies are diminishing.
The following test is based on recommendations by Radian. I tested the BG 4.7 μf N-Series cap. I compared this capacitor to the BaseLine Combination (BLC) . The BGs soundstage is not as broad and I don't feel the bass as I do the with the BLC.
I then added a 10,000 PF (0.01 μf) polystyrene cap to the BG. This made the cymbals come alive and the soundstage sounded somewhat wider. There was somewhat more air around the performers but the performance sounded veiled compared to the BLC.
I then added a 1 μf N-Series BG. This deepened the soundstage and gave body to the cymbals. The bass sounded deeper and fuller, really fuller. This combo really sounds life like. The BLC has less bass, but I suspect this is because the BLC is around 2 μf and the BG combo is 4.7+ μf. The greater capacitance should yield greater bass.
When switching back to the BLC for an extended period the specific difference i.e. enhancement yielded by the BG combo is lost in the delivery of the music. The BG combo sounds very life like.
The BG 4.7 μf, 1.0 μf, and 0.01 μf combos measured 5.95 μf and 5.94 μf. The future availability of Blackgate capacitors may be problematic. As of this date they are no longer being manufactured and supplies are diminishing.
Dave,
You didn't tell me you were also getting the BC N 1.0uf caps too! I would have gotten a stash with you!
All the places that have them, also have a handling charge under $25.00?
I hate when that happens!
The 4.7uf is the lowest I would go for my CD Player output caps, not including any bypasses
Regards//Keith
You didn't tell me you were also getting the BC N 1.0uf caps too! I would have gotten a stash with you!
All the places that have them, also have a handling charge under $25.00?
I hate when that happens!
The 4.7uf is the lowest I would go for my CD Player output caps, not including any bypasses
Regards//Keith
I have followed this thread casually from the start, and it is clear that Dave (and others) have spent a lot of time comparing different options.
The combinations of caps currently being discussed sound to me like very specific solutions for specific systems (rather than general recipes for success). In my experience different combinations of bypass caps tend to emphasize and attenuate different frequencies, so the best combo in any system will be the combo that best compliments the characteristics of that system (in that room to those ears).
Similarly, the wrong combination of bypass caps could exaggerate the deficiencies of a system.
I can accept that a long process of trial and error with bypass caps could produce a better sound than a single cap (in a given system in a given room to given ears). In my opinion, the value of Dave's research is to demonstrate that experimentation reaps rewards.
To that end I would discourage anyone from thinking that the combination that Dave preferred would necessarily be the best solution for anyone except Dave.
FWIW, I've played around with bypassing for years but always return to a single cap in the end. In my experience bypassing tends to put different frequencies in the spotlight (at the expense of others). Single caps have their limitations, but tend to sound more even and balanced to my ears.
Currently I'm using Epcos MKV and some film MKP lighting caps I bought on ebay. I absolutely agree that the MKVs sound like obbligatos without the attenuation in the extremes. The MKP caps are built the same as MKVs but have no oil. These sound less 'fleshed out' than the MKVs but remain clean and clear from top to bottom. You could think of a line with obbligato oil caps on one end, MKVs in the middle and these MKPs at the other end.
To conclude, while my preferred solution is no better or worse than Dave's; my experience tells me that an unsuitable combination of bypasses tends to sound much worse than a less than ideal single cap.
If asked for my recommendation, I would always suggest the single cap that I would expect (from related experiences) to sound best in that application. Bypassing is so system specific that I can't see the sense in recommending a specific bypass combination at the onset.
The combinations of caps currently being discussed sound to me like very specific solutions for specific systems (rather than general recipes for success). In my experience different combinations of bypass caps tend to emphasize and attenuate different frequencies, so the best combo in any system will be the combo that best compliments the characteristics of that system (in that room to those ears).
Similarly, the wrong combination of bypass caps could exaggerate the deficiencies of a system.
I can accept that a long process of trial and error with bypass caps could produce a better sound than a single cap (in a given system in a given room to given ears). In my opinion, the value of Dave's research is to demonstrate that experimentation reaps rewards.
To that end I would discourage anyone from thinking that the combination that Dave preferred would necessarily be the best solution for anyone except Dave.
FWIW, I've played around with bypassing for years but always return to a single cap in the end. In my experience bypassing tends to put different frequencies in the spotlight (at the expense of others). Single caps have their limitations, but tend to sound more even and balanced to my ears.
Currently I'm using Epcos MKV and some film MKP lighting caps I bought on ebay. I absolutely agree that the MKVs sound like obbligatos without the attenuation in the extremes. The MKP caps are built the same as MKVs but have no oil. These sound less 'fleshed out' than the MKVs but remain clean and clear from top to bottom. You could think of a line with obbligato oil caps on one end, MKVs in the middle and these MKPs at the other end.
To conclude, while my preferred solution is no better or worse than Dave's; my experience tells me that an unsuitable combination of bypasses tends to sound much worse than a less than ideal single cap.
If asked for my recommendation, I would always suggest the single cap that I would expect (from related experiences) to sound best in that application. Bypassing is so system specific that I can't see the sense in recommending a specific bypass combination at the onset.
Recommendation Caution
Thank you for the kind words. I have repeatedly, deferred from making a recommendation for any specific capacitor or bypass combination. As a human being I do have preferences, but I have deliberately resisted making "best" recommendations in this public forum. in addition, I have stated my reservations regarding bypassing and my subsequent surprise at the results.
Yes, my test suite is not perfect. It is my test suite with my ears. Most everything else I am willing to swap, except the ears (they have worked well for me for a lifetime and I don't feel the need for bypassing them). At least not just yet
Rather than make a recommendation of cap(s) I have established a bypass baseline. My thinking is anyone who has read this thread could put together the BLC. From that and the various music selections you should be at least be able to replicate my baseline. In someone else's system with their ears the BLC may sound horrid, but this provides a point of calibration.
From this testing I have found a single cap that sounds the best to me. I worked on the BLC to replicate that sound and soundstage as best I could. I recognize that different people prefer different genres of music; have varying budgets; implementation ability and patience; and their listening environments can be all over the map - from headphones to concert halls.
I agree that any one recommendation is not for everyone and I will continue to try to be objective in yielding my findings. Your post should be at the beginning of this thread and repeated periodically throughout.
Again, thank you for your post.
Sharp31,sharpi31 said:
Thank you for the kind words. I have repeatedly, deferred from making a recommendation for any specific capacitor or bypass combination. As a human being I do have preferences, but I have deliberately resisted making "best" recommendations in this public forum. in addition, I have stated my reservations regarding bypassing and my subsequent surprise at the results.
Yes, my test suite is not perfect. It is my test suite with my ears. Most everything else I am willing to swap, except the ears (they have worked well for me for a lifetime and I don't feel the need for bypassing them). At least not just yet
Rather than make a recommendation of cap(s) I have established a bypass baseline. My thinking is anyone who has read this thread could put together the BLC. From that and the various music selections you should be at least be able to replicate my baseline. In someone else's system with their ears the BLC may sound horrid, but this provides a point of calibration.
From this testing I have found a single cap that sounds the best to me. I worked on the BLC to replicate that sound and soundstage as best I could. I recognize that different people prefer different genres of music; have varying budgets; implementation ability and patience; and their listening environments can be all over the map - from headphones to concert halls.
I agree that any one recommendation is not for everyone and I will continue to try to be objective in yielding my findings. Your post should be at the beginning of this thread and repeated periodically throughout.
Again, thank you for your post.
I put a pair of Vishay-Sprague Type V-430p in my amp today and was quite impressed.
They are way more forward than the Obligatos that I had in prior but they seemed to have more detail and seperation as well.
Has anyone else tried these? they peaked my interest some time ago when I was looking through my Allied catalog at work.
They are way more forward than the Obligatos that I had in prior but they seemed to have more detail and seperation as well.
Has anyone else tried these? they peaked my interest some time ago when I was looking through my Allied catalog at work.
Type V-430p
You are the first that I have read using the Vishay-Sprague Type V-430p. Vishay-Sprague 430P Capacitor that I located in the Allied catalog (see bottom of page).
In your opinion how does it compare to the Obbligatos?
What value cap did you use?
Which amp are you using it in?
You are the first that I have read using the Vishay-Sprague Type V-430p. Vishay-Sprague 430P Capacitor that I located in the Allied catalog (see bottom of page).
In your opinion how does it compare to the Obbligatos?
What value cap did you use?
Which amp are you using it in?
I am using 2uf 50v 430ps.
I am using it in a sure electronics t-amp.
Compared to the obligatos...understand that I have not dragged it downstairs to evaluate bass output so they may sound horrible on a full range system...I have it powering a pair of Jordans in a 5l sealed box so they dont go much below 80hz.
Obbligatos seem to have a tubey midrange to them, the vishays do not have that. The Vishays seem more detailed in the high-end though with better seperation and stage depth.
I need to put the auricaps in and see if I like these Vishays better, if so they are a super bargain.
If I did not use my VTL tube preamp I would probably like the Obbligatos better because the Vishays are probably too clinical on their own.
Here is the Mouser page:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=96OZJFx7MZAwxeXLiShIDA==
I am using it in a sure electronics t-amp.
Compared to the obligatos...understand that I have not dragged it downstairs to evaluate bass output so they may sound horrible on a full range system...I have it powering a pair of Jordans in a 5l sealed box so they dont go much below 80hz.
Obbligatos seem to have a tubey midrange to them, the vishays do not have that. The Vishays seem more detailed in the high-end though with better seperation and stage depth.
I need to put the auricaps in and see if I like these Vishays better, if so they are a super bargain.
If I did not use my VTL tube preamp I would probably like the Obbligatos better because the Vishays are probably too clinical on their own.
Here is the Mouser page:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=96OZJFx7MZAwxeXLiShIDA==
Ok, tried the Auricaps in the same amp, these are the same caps that I used initially and fell in love with the amp with...
Now they sound like they have a high-pass filter...I only got through about 20sec of Nickel Creek's Should've Known Better before taking them out and switching back to the Vishays.
The difference:
The percussion was almost non-existent with the auricaps and everything sounded flat and muted. The first violin sounded strong but not as moving.
My wife immediately did not like them so I switched back:
The percussion was back, the attack of the guitar was back, the sultriness in her voice was back and the violin was huge again.
I think I found my babies.
Now they sound like they have a high-pass filter...I only got through about 20sec of Nickel Creek's Should've Known Better before taking them out and switching back to the Vishays.
The difference:
The percussion was almost non-existent with the auricaps and everything sounded flat and muted. The first violin sounded strong but not as moving.
My wife immediately did not like them so I switched back:
The percussion was back, the attack of the guitar was back, the sultriness in her voice was back and the violin was huge again.
I think I found my babies.
430P Review
Billnchristy,
Thanks, for the response and link to Mouser. I keep my Auricaps in my test bed and I will have to do an A/B to hear if I the difference in the percussion and highs that you noted against the various topologies I am currently testing. I also still have the FIO Obbligatos in the test bed.
I have not used my tube preamp during my testing. I may need to hook it back in the testbed just to re-experience that "tube" sound.
Percussion and the highs is what has captured my attention in these bypass tests. I too have noted a correlation to crisp highs and "the attack" of bass and percussion.
You have aroused my curiousity regarding this cap. I may get a set to check them out.
Billnchristy,
Thanks, for the response and link to Mouser. I keep my Auricaps in my test bed and I will have to do an A/B to hear if I the difference in the percussion and highs that you noted against the various topologies I am currently testing. I also still have the FIO Obbligatos in the test bed.
I have not used my tube preamp during my testing. I may need to hook it back in the testbed just to re-experience that "tube" sound.
Percussion and the highs is what has captured my attention in these bypass tests. I too have noted a correlation to crisp highs and "the attack" of bass and percussion.
You have aroused my curiousity regarding this cap. I may get a set to check them out.
Alternative Cap Shoot Out
I came across this link with rankings for capacitors in various applications: coupling, power supply etc. There is a lot about boutique caps included in the list; most of which cost many times more than basic T-Amps or Sureboards.
For those of you that have repeatedly asked me for a ranking of caps maybe Cap Ratings will satisfy you for a while, especially, those that have a huge budget for caps.
I came across this link with rankings for capacitors in various applications: coupling, power supply etc. There is a lot about boutique caps included in the list; most of which cost many times more than basic T-Amps or Sureboards.
For those of you that have repeatedly asked me for a ranking of caps maybe Cap Ratings will satisfy you for a while, especially, those that have a huge budget for caps.
You know, sometimes you have soar long and high before you catch up with eagles. At the lower altitudes you have, turkeys, crows, buzzards, a few audiofools, and an occasional snakeoil salesman.
Some would say an eagle doesn't cost as much as hang glider therefore there is no way it could soar as high. It is just a matter of your point of reference and or value system.
I believe any number of better than reasonable sounding caps have been tested and reviewed here. I am sure any number of the caps they tested sound good, but I am not going to throw down a few thousand dollars to try to discern which ones. However, I would be more than willing to test a 3.0 MFD Teflon V-Cap or RelCap. That is someone wants to send me a couple.
For me, its not so much the destination as the trek to get there.
Some would say an eagle doesn't cost as much as hang glider therefore there is no way it could soar as high. It is just a matter of your point of reference and or value system.
I believe any number of better than reasonable sounding caps have been tested and reviewed here. I am sure any number of the caps they tested sound good, but I am not going to throw down a few thousand dollars to try to discern which ones. However, I would be more than willing to test a 3.0 MFD Teflon V-Cap or RelCap. That is someone wants to send me a couple.
For me, its not so much the destination as the trek to get there.
Hey Dave,
You should try emailing Chris (Ven Haus) and explain what you are doing here at DIYAudio. Give him the hyperlink to this thread and ask him if he has a pair of used 3.0uf VCaps he can lend you for a couple of weeks to evaluate and post the results. If they are so good, he has a chance to have one of our own at DIY rate them compared to a decent field of candidates. All he has to do is read the thread and he will see that you are more than fair and if his stand out, he will have one of the best and largest DIY forums endorsing his product, ranking and maybe even his price.
Chris is actually a decent guy and might just see value in a challenge like this. He prefers to correspond via email.
But you can't keep 'em, oh well! Good luck!
Regards//Keith
You should try emailing Chris (Ven Haus) and explain what you are doing here at DIYAudio. Give him the hyperlink to this thread and ask him if he has a pair of used 3.0uf VCaps he can lend you for a couple of weeks to evaluate and post the results. If they are so good, he has a chance to have one of our own at DIY rate them compared to a decent field of candidates. All he has to do is read the thread and he will see that you are more than fair and if his stand out, he will have one of the best and largest DIY forums endorsing his product, ranking and maybe even his price.
Chris is actually a decent guy and might just see value in a challenge like this. He prefers to correspond via email.
But you can't keep 'em, oh well! Good luck!
Regards//Keith
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