KP11520 said:
Hi Keith,
I'm sorry to say that I had completely forgotten about that matter, so put it down to a 'senior moment' on my part!
Sometimes my short-term memory fails me nowadays, although I can recall incidents from over 60 yrs ago with complete clarity.
Anyway, I have been a bit tied up with other things for a few days, but I will make the effort to look out the schematic and my notes, as soon as I get some time to spare. I have quite a large 'archive' of such items, after all these years!
I'll contact you separately to avoid too much 'off topic' here, though.
Regards,
KP11520 said:
I will take a photo and identify where the caps are go into the PCB.
I have been giving some more thought to having the various bypass caps as close as possible to the electrolytic. It seems to me, if I keep all the leads the same length that whatever additional LCR that is added to the circuit would be the same for all caps under test.
So, I will probably go back to the test bed that has served me so well. With these caps being so small connecting and disconnecting is a real hassle.
Dave,
I was thinking that some of the "smaller" bypass caps have short leads and the larger input caps make it difficult to parallel. Rather than extending the bypass caps leads extend the larger input caps and find a way to install as close to the PCB (where the one cap should go) as possible.
Hopefully this wouldgive the best results!
Regards//Keith
I was thinking that some of the "smaller" bypass caps have short leads and the larger input caps make it difficult to parallel. Rather than extending the bypass caps leads extend the larger input caps and find a way to install as close to the PCB (where the one cap should go) as possible.
Hopefully this wouldgive the best results!
Regards//Keith
I managed to get hold of some Siemens/Epcos B25834 caps in 3.3uf. They're machine caps just slightly smaller than the big Obbligato PIO caps.
There has been some hype of these kinds of caps in the past from a couple users and a failed group buy. The main source was from Dice45 in various forums around the web. Another well known figure of these forums Peter Daniels posted that this cap outperformed his Jenson Copper + rtx + silver foil bypass in his tweeter (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=172895#post172895)
If you like Obbligato caps, these B25834 caps improve upon many of its weaknesses. Firstly, the the overall tone is nearly the same. Everything is very smooth and warm. The vocals and instrumental tone is essential the same between the two.
The difference lies in the overall balance. The B25834 is balanced from top to bottom, wheras the Obbligato seems to exhibit much less top end and, to a lesser extent, less bottom end. The soundstage/depth is much better in the B25834. I think this is the result of the improved high frequency performance of the amp.
I tried bypassing the Obbligatos with some 0.01 caps. First was the MKT1822 0.01uf, then MKT1837 0.01uf, naked Russian teflon 0.1uf caps + MKT1837 0.01uf, and finally some Mojo Dijon 0.01uf caps. They all improved high frequency performance, but things never sounded quite like the bare Obbligato. The bypass caps seemed to take away the original sound that made the Obbligatoes so attractive in the first place. That was my failed attempt at trying to up improve the Obbligato performance.
I think the B25834 caps are for the people that love Obbligato caps, or for those that love the tone of the Obbligatos but could not live with the soundstage/depth/high frequency tradeoffs. If you found the Obbligatos lacking in edge or apparent detail, then these caps are not for you.
There has been some hype of these kinds of caps in the past from a couple users and a failed group buy. The main source was from Dice45 in various forums around the web. Another well known figure of these forums Peter Daniels posted that this cap outperformed his Jenson Copper + rtx + silver foil bypass in his tweeter (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=172895#post172895)
If you like Obbligato caps, these B25834 caps improve upon many of its weaknesses. Firstly, the the overall tone is nearly the same. Everything is very smooth and warm. The vocals and instrumental tone is essential the same between the two.
The difference lies in the overall balance. The B25834 is balanced from top to bottom, wheras the Obbligato seems to exhibit much less top end and, to a lesser extent, less bottom end. The soundstage/depth is much better in the B25834. I think this is the result of the improved high frequency performance of the amp.
I tried bypassing the Obbligatos with some 0.01 caps. First was the MKT1822 0.01uf, then MKT1837 0.01uf, naked Russian teflon 0.1uf caps + MKT1837 0.01uf, and finally some Mojo Dijon 0.01uf caps. They all improved high frequency performance, but things never sounded quite like the bare Obbligato. The bypass caps seemed to take away the original sound that made the Obbligatoes so attractive in the first place. That was my failed attempt at trying to up improve the Obbligato performance.
I think the B25834 caps are for the people that love Obbligato caps, or for those that love the tone of the Obbligatos but could not live with the soundstage/depth/high frequency tradeoffs. If you found the Obbligatos lacking in edge or apparent detail, then these caps are not for you.
Hi Dweekie,
Have you played with bypassing these yet? I would be interested to know how that goes.
When you say "I think the B25834 caps are for the people that love Obbligato caps, or for those that love the tone of the Obbligatos but could not live with the soundstage/depth/high frequency tradeoffs. If you found the Obbligatos lacking in edge or apparent detail, then these caps are not for you."
I'm sorry, but what you are saying about comparisons is not that clear to me. Would you mind framing out this statement for me to see a bigger picture?
Also do they come in 4.7uf and at what voltages and are they Radial or Axial?
BTW, if you are a "One Cap Man" (don't like bypass caps) these sound like a great choice!
Thanks as always!
Regards//Keith
Have you played with bypassing these yet? I would be interested to know how that goes.
When you say "I think the B25834 caps are for the people that love Obbligato caps, or for those that love the tone of the Obbligatos but could not live with the soundstage/depth/high frequency tradeoffs. If you found the Obbligatos lacking in edge or apparent detail, then these caps are not for you."
I'm sorry, but what you are saying about comparisons is not that clear to me. Would you mind framing out this statement for me to see a bigger picture?
Also do they come in 4.7uf and at what voltages and are they Radial or Axial?
BTW, if you are a "One Cap Man" (don't like bypass caps) these sound like a great choice!
Thanks as always!
Regards//Keith
Here's the datasheet to answer some of your questions (http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/50/db/power_99/01280167.pdf). In short, they are radial, come in 4.7, and are available in 600v and higher.
I found them surplus and had bought out a group-buy sized lot. I may offer them for sale in the trading post soon after I decide how many I want to keep, but I really don't want it to be a self promotion. Send me an email if you want me to send you a pair. I offered some caps to Dave to test since he can do a much better job with a wider range of better caps.
I have not tried bypassing these caps yet and don't feel motivated to do so. They seem to pass all the information that the 0.01uf caps add to the Obbligato PIO caps in my opinion without some of the disjointed sound I sometimes notice between the caps.
What I meant to say is that these B25834 caps are very similar to the Obbligato caps. They are very smooth and warm, but the B25834 caps seem to address some of the "mono" soundstage that some people describe. They still sound very similar to the Obbligatos overall, and people that do not like the PIO properties will still not be satisfied with the B25834 caps.
I found them surplus and had bought out a group-buy sized lot. I may offer them for sale in the trading post soon after I decide how many I want to keep, but I really don't want it to be a self promotion. Send me an email if you want me to send you a pair. I offered some caps to Dave to test since he can do a much better job with a wider range of better caps.
I have not tried bypassing these caps yet and don't feel motivated to do so. They seem to pass all the information that the 0.01uf caps add to the Obbligato PIO caps in my opinion without some of the disjointed sound I sometimes notice between the caps.
KP11520 said:
What I meant to say is that these B25834 caps are very similar to the Obbligato caps. They are very smooth and warm, but the B25834 caps seem to address some of the "mono" soundstage that some people describe. They still sound very similar to the Obbligatos overall, and people that do not like the PIO properties will still not be satisfied with the B25834 caps.
When you refer to the Obbligato Caps you write PIO. The ones I bought from DIYHIFI supply were actually black, Film/Oil (Polypropylene) 630 volt Radial caps. Are these the ones you tested too?
They are supposed to be warm with great soundstage and detailed and decently balanced from bottom to top. based on Dave's experience and what I read other places. From what I understand, your experience is somewhat close to this explanation but the bottom and top are just a little lacking.
Or are the Obbligatos you tried different, hence PIO?
BTW, I am interested to buy a pair of 4.7uf caps!
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
They are supposed to be warm with great soundstage and detailed and decently balanced from bottom to top. based on Dave's experience and what I read other places. From what I understand, your experience is somewhat close to this explanation but the bottom and top are just a little lacking.
Or are the Obbligatos you tried different, hence PIO?
BTW, I am interested to buy a pair of 4.7uf caps!
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
Excellent!
To be fair, he and his setup are the only way to compare these to the others. He has the "Constant" although you have tried quite a few in your setup too!
I want to buy a pair or two of the 4.7 uf. Hopefully you have some extra of those!
I am glad you really tested those (the same as mine) Obbligato's. I appreciate your similar but different experience.
Regards//Keith
To be fair, he and his setup are the only way to compare these to the others. He has the "Constant" although you have tried quite a few in your setup too!
I want to buy a pair or two of the 4.7 uf. Hopefully you have some extra of those!
I am glad you really tested those (the same as mine) Obbligato's. I appreciate your similar but different experience.
Regards//Keith
Might also want to send this guy some too.dweekie said:DaveT will be getting a pair of B25834 caps to play with very soon
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
So Dweekie, would it be safe to say, these are going to be permanant?
That's an endorsement! I still wonder what a bypass cap would do but I think I prefer one cap that just does it all right for coupling caps!
The threaded mount looks like it accepts a RG6 connector! Maybe the cap works better connected to an antenna! LOL
I was hoping you had the 4.7s!
Regards//Keith
That's an endorsement! I still wonder what a bypass cap would do but I think I prefer one cap that just does it all right for coupling caps!
The threaded mount looks like it accepts a RG6 connector! Maybe the cap works better connected to an antenna! LOL
I was hoping you had the 4.7s!
Regards//Keith
MKT
I installed the MKP 0.1 and 0.01 MFD capacitors bypassing the Blackgate 2.2 electrolytic capacitor. This combination of caps yields the same amount of sonic information with the exception of the speed in the upper highs compared to the Flourinert/ Wima/Mica [FWM] combination. I suspect that this loss of “speed” due to the exclusion of the silver mica capacitor.
The overall effect of the MKP caps is to have moved your seat up three tables in a Jazz club. Instead of sitting somewhat back in the club you are right next to the bandstand. Everything seems larger and closer. For symphonic performances the listener location sounds forward of orchestra center. Symphonic works sound as if they take place in a smaller hall.
This bypass combination seems to play louder than the FWM combination. For those that want more intimacy/immediacy with the performance the MKPs are the way to bring this about. The sound of this combination often said to be “warm”.
The soundstage had limited breadth and some depth. The performance even on symphonic works comes from between the speakers. Imaging is not as focused as many of the other caps I have tested. The overall holographic effect is blurred.
The sound is balanced throughout the frequency range. The bass is somewhat fuller accounting for greater presence but not so much as to be fatiguing. The full bodied ness of the acoustic bass coming in on Excursions is welcome and augments the performance.
________________________________________________
The foregoing was based on less than 36-hours of burn in. KP11520 suggested I let the caps burn in for a few hours playing from an FM tuner. After 100+ hours I sat down and listened to my test selections. First the soundstage broadened and everything sounded somewhat better. The focus sounded more stable. The performance was not as close to the bandstand as before the 100+ hours.
Overall, everything just sounded better after the extended burn in. The violin on Honeysuckle Rose didn’t quite sound like a violin. The trumpet on After the Dead still sounded as if there was something between me and the performer. There seems to be very little depth to the soundstage. The FWM just sounded more “life-like.”
I then added the 30 pf silver mica capacitor to the bypasses. The performances came alive just like Frankenstein’s monster. I got Goosebumps from the unearthly performance of After the Dead. The guitars on Stairway to Heaven had a clarity that was not there without the silver mica. There seems to be more air or a reverberant field that is not there without the silver micas. The acoustics of recording venues are more apparent with the addition of the silver micas. Silent passages are more so.
I suspect the silver micas are suppressing something, yielding greater silence, and yet passing some sonic information more quickly which gives that air of liveliness. Trying to isolate what I am hearing when the silver micas are added will require more testing on my part.
This bypass combination provided a louder presentation with more bass. Without the silver micas this combination sounded ever so slightly muffled. I would have been more than satisfied if I had not listened to the FWM combination beforehand.
The caps as provided to me came via a group-buy; therefore I have no source for purchase.
I installed the MKP 0.1 and 0.01 MFD capacitors bypassing the Blackgate 2.2 electrolytic capacitor. This combination of caps yields the same amount of sonic information with the exception of the speed in the upper highs compared to the Flourinert/ Wima/Mica [FWM] combination. I suspect that this loss of “speed” due to the exclusion of the silver mica capacitor.
The overall effect of the MKP caps is to have moved your seat up three tables in a Jazz club. Instead of sitting somewhat back in the club you are right next to the bandstand. Everything seems larger and closer. For symphonic performances the listener location sounds forward of orchestra center. Symphonic works sound as if they take place in a smaller hall.
This bypass combination seems to play louder than the FWM combination. For those that want more intimacy/immediacy with the performance the MKPs are the way to bring this about. The sound of this combination often said to be “warm”.
The soundstage had limited breadth and some depth. The performance even on symphonic works comes from between the speakers. Imaging is not as focused as many of the other caps I have tested. The overall holographic effect is blurred.
The sound is balanced throughout the frequency range. The bass is somewhat fuller accounting for greater presence but not so much as to be fatiguing. The full bodied ness of the acoustic bass coming in on Excursions is welcome and augments the performance.
________________________________________________
The foregoing was based on less than 36-hours of burn in. KP11520 suggested I let the caps burn in for a few hours playing from an FM tuner. After 100+ hours I sat down and listened to my test selections. First the soundstage broadened and everything sounded somewhat better. The focus sounded more stable. The performance was not as close to the bandstand as before the 100+ hours.
Overall, everything just sounded better after the extended burn in. The violin on Honeysuckle Rose didn’t quite sound like a violin. The trumpet on After the Dead still sounded as if there was something between me and the performer. There seems to be very little depth to the soundstage. The FWM just sounded more “life-like.”
I then added the 30 pf silver mica capacitor to the bypasses. The performances came alive just like Frankenstein’s monster. I got Goosebumps from the unearthly performance of After the Dead. The guitars on Stairway to Heaven had a clarity that was not there without the silver mica. There seems to be more air or a reverberant field that is not there without the silver micas. The acoustics of recording venues are more apparent with the addition of the silver micas. Silent passages are more so.
I suspect the silver micas are suppressing something, yielding greater silence, and yet passing some sonic information more quickly which gives that air of liveliness. Trying to isolate what I am hearing when the silver micas are added will require more testing on my part.
This bypass combination provided a louder presentation with more bass. Without the silver micas this combination sounded ever so slightly muffled. I would have been more than satisfied if I had not listened to the FWM combination beforehand.
The caps as provided to me came via a group-buy; therefore I have no source for purchase.
Thanks Dave!
I am glad you are doing this! This way the constant is...... well......constant!
It sounds like the FWM is still your nirvana so far!
Looks like Silver Micas are in my shopping cart now too! Yikes! Any particular brands and values you recommend?
I can't wait to hear your impressions of Dweekie's Epcos/Siemens caps! They sound like they might be for the ome cap purists..... until you experiment and bypass them too! LOL
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
I am glad you are doing this! This way the constant is...... well......constant!
It sounds like the FWM is still your nirvana so far!
Looks like Silver Micas are in my shopping cart now too! Yikes! Any particular brands and values you recommend?
I can't wait to hear your impressions of Dweekie's Epcos/Siemens caps! They sound like they might be for the ome cap purists..... until you experiment and bypass them too! LOL
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
I agree with Dave on these MKP caps. The 0.01 MKP1837 caps added high frequency information to the Obbligato and MKT1822 caps I had, but as Dave said, they seemed to be missing some of that very last bit of realism. You could hear more high frequency information, but it didn't seem quite real/right. When I tried the MKP caps on the Epcos, the high frequency information seemed to be removed. I guess the MKP caps do not pass all of the high frequency data; thus, the silver mica must have added that missing information for Dave. I actually liked the MKT1822 0.01 caps better than the MKP1837 as bypass caps. The MKT just sounded more right, even if it may seem to extend a bit less. I don't have any smaller caps to bypass these with, so I can only comment on using these caps alone.
Dave is really rocking these reviews.
Dave is really rocking these reviews.
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